Virtuall flybar for AP applications?

[GGoodrum]

Wow, I didn't know CSM had this out yet. That's VERY cool, and quite affordable, when compared to the V-Bar system. I think it is definitely worth a look. I'm sure they have it tweaked to work right out of the box, for most setups. You could just get the mCCPM version, without the eCCPM mixer, and use the AP-2000i for this function. Interesting.

-- Gary

[MarkWebber]

I might be biased but I'm going to hang on for the new ds760's :wink:

I'd also like to see the manufacturers box up some serious skills so I could use this to it's potential. :roll:

BTW, I'm flying mostly in HH. Rate is too much like having a flybar...uck :D

[j_kookboy]

How is HH Mark ?

The other Mark said it's like flying a coax. :noteworthy

I've got it all setup (w / 240's). Just going to check the linkages (length) Grips to swash to servo's.

[MarkWebber]

There is definately a different feel to HH. The cyclic stays where you last put it. I didn't realize how mushy (for lack of a better term) the cyclic felt before converting. It does take a bit of getting used to. I had a more skilled pilot fly mine and he wasn't to comfortable with it. Unfortunately, the engine quit about a minute into the flight. While he autos successfully all the time, the control difference didn't play out so well on the R50. Probably because it didn't settle like a flybar and also possibly because it is more responsive to stick input.

If anything, I would start 'er up in rate mode and get used to it before going HH. That way tracking and any other adjustments you need to make won't be compounded by being in HH.

I'll also say that if your gain is too high in HH, it is a more uncomfortable feeling than when oscillating in rate.

Did you get you linkages moved in to the innermost hole on the servos, cyclic, that is?

[j_kookboy]

Yes.

I spoke with Mark last night and he kindly fed me his measurements.

:? That just doesn't sound right :mrgreen:

Head to swash - 87.5 mm (eye to eye)
Swash to servo - 53 mm (eye to eye)
Servo horn/center - 13 mm

I'm running the stock frame and see what throws that gives me. Hopefully around 7-8 pitch which is plenty for AP.

On the roll/pitch GY240's, I'll start with Mark's settings are run them both at 50% gain and see how they work in rate mode.

Once it's all setup and flying smoothly, then I'll try out HH.

Thanks for the tips Marks :D

[oscillator]

*****UPDATE*******

Just flew the Logo 10 with the full AP load for the first time and wanted to report some endurance numbers.

Logo 10 is same as before, but with MAH 555 carbon blades and 90mm tail blades.

Load is Askman 360 mount with 3-shock 2-axis self leveling gimbal, A640 camera, 900Mhz 1/2 watt downlink, 2nd receiver, 900mAh 3 cell cheap lipo, and all the wiring to make it work. I still haven't picked up the correct connector for the camera power, so the 4 AA cells were still in there. Didn't power up the camera, so no ariel pictures just yet.

Heli is running in governor mode with 100% flat throttle curve - Z50A-800 motor w/ 19T pinon. Head speed is probably a little high, but I didn't measure it. Battery is a 10 cell A123.

From spool up to perceptible power drop was 9:16. I was hovering the entire time, but a few feet up to stay out of ground effect.

I'm pretty pleased with the endurance. If I drop the head speed a bit I should be able to comfortably fly 8 min missions with reserve. So how does this compare to the flybar equipped A123 Logo 10s?

[oscillator]

I'm not going to make any % efficiency claims at this point, but see http://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=25703&highlight=a123+endurance

to quote Crofix (emphasis mine):


Logo 10 Deluxe with askman mount complete no camera I just hit six minutes fifty four seconds tonight with hover and pitch pumps.


No idea what blades, headspeed, motor, etc Cryofix was using, but to go from 6:54 with no camera to 9:16 with camera/downlink/radio/etc is significant to say the least! I seriously doubt this is all due to the flybar - but that is probably the largest single factor.

[MarkWebber]

It would be good to get more specifics from him. Let's hope he catches the post. Would be interesting to see exactly what differences can be expected in efficiency.

[rerazor]

I would say thats very good duration. What is your AUW again? :dontknow

[MarkWebber]

Mark

Ever thought of putting it back to flybar control for an efficiency comparison? :wink:

Maybe when I convert my gasser I can do a duration test with it. Let's see...30 min hovering and then 40? Maybe not. :D

[oscillator]

rerazor -

Now that's a great question. I only have a 5lb scale, so it is going to take some disassembly to find the AUW. Maybe later tonight...

Mark -

I agree - flybar and flybarless on the same heli is the only way to get a good efficiency comparison. However, I'm not THAT interested. This heli has never had a flybar, and my plan is it never will.

[GGoodrum]

I have flown almost the identical setup (Logo 10 Carbon, Z30A-800, 19T pinion, single a123 pack, Askman mount with A640/wide-angle lens, streched with Logo 14 carbon boom and 550 Rototech blades...), but with a flybar. My AUW was just under 10 pounds. I was getting about 7-1/2 minutes before power dropped (quickly! :)), so the efficiency improvement looks to be about 20%, which sounds close to what I've been hearing that the Logo factory pilots, like Christian Samuelis and Andy Rummer were seeing in their V-Bar - equipped extreme 3D machines. They have been saying the power gain is about 15%, and the durations went up by about the same margin.

I'm in the process of re-configuring my Logo 10 slightly. I'm know setting it up to run dual configurations, one for AP/AV and one for 3D. Instead of having the frames bolted directly to the camera mount, I got Andrey to send me a couple sets of the universal fittings, which I've installed on both PanCam mounts (one with the portrait mounted A640/wide-angle lens combo, and one with the shock stabilized mount for the HDC-SD1...). I put skids back on the Logo so that I can now easily go back and forth between either camera setup, or go do regular sport flying, should the fancy strike.

Anyway, I'm testing the basic setup, including the flybar, first in order to make sure everything works, and then I'll hook up the V-Bar system and get it dialed in. One of the few unique features of the V-Bar system is that you can use a PC to setup two completely different flybarless setups, and select between them remotely. This will let me have one setup for 3D, and a super stable one for AP/AV. For power, I've re-geared the Z30A-800 to use a 14T pinion, instead of the 19T I was using with the 8s-3700 and 10s a123 setups I was using before, and will use a 12s-2200 configuration for 3D, and a 10s-3300 setup for AP/AV.

I will definitely do some duration comparisons, with and without the flybar, but I'm guessing it will still be in the 15-20% range.

-- Gary

[rerazor]

20% is very nice!!! :WOW

[oscillator]

Today it was time to start shooting pics with the flybarless Logo 10. I don't have a monitor for my ground station yet, so I am shooting blind - or rather my 8 year old son is, as he was the camera operator.

Taken from my "driveway" -
http://www.helifreak.com/album_mod/upload/4bce820d03b97ac81c5e22c5c1eff5f5.jpg

Cheers,

[MarkWebber]

Nice, Mark.

Flybarless AP lives!

I'd better get off the pot :roll:

[rerazor]

Very nice.

[j_kookboy]

Nice, Mark.

Flybarless AP lives!

I'd better get off the pot :roll:

Ditto. :D

Almost there.

..............

Gary, I'm running a Neu 1910-1.5y w/ 10S1P A123's and just finished last night swapping over the flybarless.

Currently I am running a 20T pinion.

Would you recommend to drop it down to 18/19 since there is less drag ?

Thanks,
Jesse

[GGoodrum]

Nice, Mark.

Flybarless AP lives!

I'd better get off the pot :roll:

Ditto. :D

Almost there.

..............

Gary, I'm running a Neu 1910-1.5y w/ 10S1P A123's and just finished last night swapping over the flybarless.

Currently I am running a 20T pinion.

Would you recommend to drop it down to 18/19 since there is less drag ?

Thanks,
Jesse

No, I would leave it alone. You can try dialing the h/s down a bit more, but actually I wouldn't mess with too much.

[j_kookboy]

Thanks Gary. :D



.......

Both Mark's running the Vbar with gyro's...

My camera/downlink/recv is all powered by a 1200 2S pack all separate on the pancam mount.

Are you guys using a UBEC and separate lipo for the heli motor/esc/servo's...etc ?

I am using a CC45HV with a 45V UBEC and was planning on using a 1320-2000 2S lipo pack to take the gyro/servo's load off the main pack.

Thoughts or recommendations on mah consumption running digital servo's and 3 gyro's ?

[MarkWebber]

Both Mark's running the Vbar with gyro's...

Vbar? We don't need no stinking Vbar! :wink:

I've yet to convert my gasser. The R50 was just a testbed. I'm doing a 360 mount so all is separate.

Gary should be able to suggest battery configuration. He is the battery guy, afterall. :wink:

[oscillator]

Thanks guys. I was just checking the camera data and noticed the above shot was taken at 1/60 sec - which is about as slow as one would typically want to shoot hand held - not to mention from a heli! I guess it shows the flybarless logo 10 w/ AP2000i is a very stable platform.

Here is another one, this time at 1/320 -

http://www.hoverimaging.com/images/baseball.jpg

For full rez version see http://www.hoverimaging.com/images/baseball.jpg

Can't wait to see the results from Mark, Garry, Jesse and others.

Death to the flybar!
And we don't need no stinkin' V bar either. :mrgreen:

[dreslism]

Thanks guys. I was just checking the camera data and noticed the above shot was taken at 1/60 sec - which is about as slow as one would typically want to shoot hand held - not to mention from a heli! I guess it shows the flybarless logo 10 w/ AP2000i is a very stable platform.

Here is another one, this time at 1/320 -

http://www.hoverimaging.com/images/baseball.jpg

For full rez version see http://www.hoverimaging.com/images/baseball.jpg

Can't wait to see the results from Mark, Garry, Jesse and others.

Death to the flybar!
And we don't need no stinkin' V bar either. :mrgreen:

Ahh, green grass and trees...

Very nice Mark. I like the view from your driveway, makes *ME* want to come fly from your driveway... :D

[j_kookboy]

Very nice Mark. You have some spectators :D

Are you running any separate lipo packs or UBec's ?

[dreslism]

I was zooming in and checking out your pictures, and this just cracked me up:

[oscillator]

Thanks Scott! I had to go back and look at the original again - didn't realize butt crack ball was a local sport!!! :lol:

Jesse,

Main power is a 10 cell A123. I am using a Mikado BEC for the radio/servo power.

The camera system is powered by a separate 3 cell 900mAh Lipo. The output of the Lipo directly drives the RF downlink. It also drives a Dimension Engineering DC-DC converter producing 5V. The 5V output is used to drive a separate receiver and servos for the mount. The same 5V output also powers the camera.

Cheers,
Mark