Virtuall flybar for AP applications?

[oscillator]

I was just checking this out:
http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5404

And it occurred to me that it might be possible to create a very smooth and stable AP heli using a system like this. The setup is $200 and that includes a heading hold gyro - so call it ~$60 over the cost of a 401. Looks like you need a new head too - at $179 for the Logo, so $240 to go this way.

The marketing blurb claims less sensitivity to wind, reduced drag, lighter total weight, and it brings you coffee. :wink:

Anyone played with one of these? Anyone want to speculate how much advantage (if any) this would bring to an AP ship?

[panomaniac]

Did you read entire page?
"Preorder only! Full price is $1099.00, and the $899.00 difference will be charged when the product ships"
:lol:

[MarkWebber]

I'm switching my R50 over to flybarless using the AP2000i and 2 gyros to see how it would be for AP. If all goes as expected I'll probably do the same for my Intrepid gasser. Weather willing I'll be able to give it a go this weekend. :D

[oscillator]

Did you read entire page?
"Preorder only! Full price is $1099.00, and the $899.00 difference will be charged when the product ships"
:lol:

When I first read this I thought you were joking. Went back and re-read the page a few times before I finally found this statement discretely tucked in right under the banner at the top of the page. Easy to miss.

Oh well, at that price it is much less interesting.

Mark Webber - I forgot the AP2000i does flybarless. So with 2 additional gyros and no IR sensor, do you think the heli could hover in position hands off? Obviously sensor calibration would no longer be an issue, but what else would be different? Seems it would hold the orientation you put it in vs seeking "level" with the IR sensors.

[Angelos]

The marketing blurb claims less sensitivity to wind, reduced drag, lighter total weight, and it brings you coffee.

The Virtual Flybar System is just a glorified gyro + CCPM mixer. The scale model guys have been using this arrangement for quite some time.

So with 2 additional gyros and no IR sensor, do you think the heli could hover in position hands off?

No it will hover just as if it had a flybar. The flybar is a mechanical gyro after all, but in some way it is susceptible to wind/gusts or can make the heli pitch up/down when flying at high speed. The electronic gyros won’t. You can still use the IR sensor to add hover stabilisation.

-Angelos

[AZ ChopperCam]

You can still use the IR sensor to add hover stabilisation.

so what would be the advantage of adding gyro's to a flybar equipped chopper that is using th IR sensor? Any added benefit?

[Angelos]

so what would be the advantage of adding gyro's to a flybar equipped chopper that is using th IR sensor? Any added benefit?

Probably none. You can just achieve the same effect by increasing the flybar weights. And when the AP-2000i stabiliser is switched on it takes over anyway.

-Angelos

[mdelzer]

CSM is in the process of testing one that should be a lot cheaper. I think you just pull the fly off your old head.

Mark

[MarkWebber]

I don't know about cheaper. The posts I've seen mentioned using 2 CSM 720's with it. Something like $230 each, I think. I didn't get the impression that it was geared toward AP. I may be wrong. :dontknow

[askman]

going flybarless means about 20% more efficiency. could be worth it in mission critical jobs. Vstabi was only 500euro when it was first available. now with mikado in the loop, it went up by 2x. :shock: oh well. I think we will see more such technology becoming cheaper and more available. wait till we see these things from asia. :)

[MarkWebber]

Another benifit of removing the flybar is removing another source of vibration. Personally, I've occasionally had difficulties tracking the paddles. It seems more difficult to get them right. Don't have to worry about that now on my R50 :D

[mdelzer]

I don't know about cheaper. The posts I've seen mentioned using 2 CSM 720's with it. Something like $230 each, I think. I didn't get the impression that it was geared toward AP. I may be wrong. :dontknow

Mark, I just looked at the reports on RR and it probably won't be cheaper. Not only does it require 2 720s it still needs a third gyro in general for the tail.

Something else to think about is if you put it in I would thing there would be less possible damage as well as less parts to replace without the flybar.

Mark

[askman]

it is definitely simpler. you do need stronger servo and shorter servo arm as well. I know that Vario use really soft damping on their flybarless setup on their silence.

[Angelos]

going flybarless means about 20% more efficiency.

I never thought about this and you are right, it will be more efficient. But it seems to me 20% is too much. It makes a significant impact on helicopter performance and if it was true all helis would have switched to flybar-less by now.

Here is another advantage of flybar-less that I thought… if you use the same heli for AP and 3D you could easily change the gain of the gyros to accommodate both needs. Shifting the flybar weights is a lot more hassle. Also, you could mix cyclic to reduce gyro gain and thus allow much faster flip/roll rate than a flybar equipped heli.

-Angelos

[westbeach]

With the Vbar setup from Mikado, you are going to remove your existing gyro, and keeping the tail servo. The unit replaces the tail gyro. I believe you guys have it mixed up with the Helitronik mixer that the scale guys are using which require additional gyros!! Not with the setup from Mikado. The only thing that you are required that is not included in the kit is the flybarless head priced at around 180. And the Vbar itself is around 1000+ ( readyheli )
Hope this clears up some of the confussion! Cheers


http://andreas-s.macdisk.de/mikado/mikado_news_2006.pdf

[MarkWebber]

And another small benefit that I've noticed not having a flybar. You can lay the heli on it's side without the flybar getting in the way. It might seem like nothing but sure is nice :)

[oscillator]

Been reading more on the flybarless heli's and this certainly looks like the way of the future - besides a more precise and controllable heli, it looks like efficiency and available power go up significantly.

So I wonder how using the AP2000i for a flybarless conversion would compare with the Logo V bar? Obviously the AP2000i setup will cost less (about 1/2 once you add the gyros), but it lacks the air pressure sensors.

Any reports on actual use of the AP2000i without a flybar?

[GGoodrum]

The big thing is not eCCPM mixing, which the AP-2000i can do, but being able to "tweak" the gyros for different flight characteristics. I'm going to get a couple of CSM 720 gyros and try the "tweaks" that Colin's has been developing for use in his own flybarless tests. I'll use the AP-2000i to do the eCCPM mixing.

[dreslism]

Been reading more on the flybarless heli's and this certainly looks like the way of the future - besides a more precise and controllable heli, it looks like efficiency and available power go up significantly.

So I wonder how using the AP2000i for a flybarless conversion would compare with the Logo V bar? Obviously the AP2000i setup will cost less (about 1/2 once you add the gyros), but it lacks the air pressure sensors.

Any reports on actual use of the AP2000i without a flybar?

My understanding is the air tubes are only to prevent pitch up during high speed FF and BF. I don't do high speed FF when I'm doing AP :wink:

I read many on the vbar threads state you don't really need the tubes.

[MarkWebber]

Any reports on actual use of the AP2000i without a flybar?

I'm just about done with the conversion. Just waiting on the last gyro to show up. I should have had it here before now. I'm thinking I might pull the one off my gasser if the weather allows for a test flight tomorrow or Sunday. I will definately post results when I get it going.
I've already got an accomplished pilot lined up to try it out for 3D. It's not so pretty when I'm flying 3D :oops: That I'll get video of too.

[oscillator]

Hey Mark,

is it possible to use the IR sensor and 2 gyros with the AP2000i so you could be flybarless and stabilized with the IR? Or do you just tweak the virtual flybar settings so that you have the equivalent of 10lbs weights on a flybar? :mrgreen:

I may go to the virtual bar sooner than I thought. I'm re-building a Logo 10 that I bought off a fellow freak. I discovered that he didn't use thread lock consistently, so tonight I was removing parts and applying thread lock. Well, I managed to brake one of the balls off in the swash! :shock: I've been trying to drill it out, but no luck! Looks like I go flybarless so I don't need that ball or order a new swash at $65! :arggg:

[MarkWebber]

I've been trying to drill it out, but no luck!

Probably the only thing that had thread lock, right? :roll: Sounds like my kind of luck.

Anyhow, going flybarless with IR is exactly what I'm doing. More for AP than 3D reasons but I'm trying it out on my R50 just to see how it will perform. Once I've got it all figured out, I'll go ahead and make the switch on my gasser.
I can't give too many details on tweaking because I've yet to fly it. But, Angelos tells me to start with the 2 gyros in non-HH at a low gain setting and adjust from there for the best feel. I'll let you know what that is when I figure it out :D

[oscillator]

Probably the only thing that had thread lock, right? :roll: Sounds like my kind of luck.
How did you know?

I can't give too many details on tweaking because I've yet to fly it. But, Angelos tells me to start with the 2 gyros in non-HH at a low gain setting and adjust from there for the best feel. I'll let you know what that is when I figure it out :D

Yes, keep me posted. So do the gyros go between the RX and the AP2000i? Which gyros are you using?

I'm going to order the new head and some gyros now. It is either that or a new swash plate. :oops:

Edit: parts for flybarless head are on the way from Esprit Model. Now I just need the AP2000i to get here, and 2 gyros, and lots of tweaking...

[MarkWebber]

I'm using 401's just because I was able to pick em up gently used. You don't need the remote gyro gain and HH is not used so you don't have to pick a gyro based on HH ability.

The gyros do go between the rx and AP2000i. I've got the install done. I didn't get to the IR sensor yet but that isn't really important at this time. I already know that part works :D . Weather was crappy here today so I'll try to get in the air tomorrow.
I have to admit, it's pretty cool tilting the heli and watching the swash try to resist the movements :D

[askman]

from everything I read about using gyro for stability, they actually think older rates gyro are better because they almost act like they have histerisis built in. the key is low gain on newer gyro. it is almost too sensitive I guess. sounds like a fun project.