The end of 14MZ Supremacy near?

[steph280]

While Futaba is dragging their behind trying to come up with 2.4Ghz solution for the 14MZ, it looks like another competition has popped up creating what looks to be a serious contender for the 14MZ. I don't want to piss off anybody by posting a link, but go to that universe site and search for "Nomadio FULL Range".

Mind you, it's not just about 2.4Ghz DSS anymore. It's a brand new radio with features that would blow 12/14MZ away. We're talking about telemetry that lets you see voltage/amp/speed/RPM/temp/gps/etc on your radio screen, 100Hz framerate that's twice as fast as PCM2048 or Spektrum's whatever they call it. And some neat feature like vibrating alert, USB interface that actually works, and association of mp3/wav files to timer so it's not just another ipod wannabe.

Guess what, the target price of this thing is $900. :arggg:

Sounds like a far fetched vaporware? They already have all the technology in their military applications deployed in Iraq, and also in the SENSOR RC car system. And supposedly Futaba even license their 2.4Ghz technology for their FAST RC car module.

Why do I sound pissed? Futaba has been keeping their users in the dark about 2.4Ghz developments, which made me wonder if my 14MZ investment was worth the premium they asked for. And when I mentioned this upcoming Nomadio radio on 14mz.com's forum, the posts were quickly removed. SENSORSHIP on FUTABA FORUM?! Is Mark Ryder running that forum as well?

I would hate to see the value of our beloved radio plummit. But it looks to be heading that way soon.

[Raptor Rulezzz]

I saw that too a couple of days ago... but they are just starting development on it, so it could be a while before we see that "high end" transmitter for sale for only $900...

I also do hope that Futaba makes a 2,4ghz 14MZ conversion possible ASAP!!! :arggg:

It would be even better if it were to stay backwards compatible with everything, but that would be damn near impossible... :roll:

Cheers,

Richard

[kgfly]

Well keep your eye out for the XPS/XL solution due out in Feb/Mar (although it has already been delayed since Oct). They have a 14mz 2.4GHz module and their own 6/8/10/16ch Rx and a separate telemetry display that you mount on your Tx. That way you can keep your favourite Tx and get the benefits of 2.4GHz spread spectrum too.

The Nomadio guys are promising a *lot* but it is way too early to tell if they can deliver, or when. They do have proven 2.4GHz R/C technology and have designed Tx before, but they've taken a big bite this time and time will tell how well they can chew.

[Phaedrus]

The XPS 14MZ/12Z module will plug into the trainer port. There is a short servo type cable on it. You will then attache the module someplace else with Velcro or similar. So it will not fit in the current location, but rather hang off the back by a cable.

[Bayou Talker]

http://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=27511&highlight=nomadio

More info here.

[Finless]

I am willing to BET you that Futaba will not make 2.4G for the 14mz but in fact will probably release another radio for 2.4g... I have some info from people that understand how the RF pack works that it may be impossible to just come out with a 2.4G module for the 14mz and that it would require the radio to be sent in...
Maybe they were wrong but I have a bad feeling that it is true!

Bob

[ClayK]

I don't do it often, but I think differently than Bob on this one. I believe that they will have a module for the 12 and 14, but it may require to be sent in. I'm not sure on the HAM band conversion, but I think the level of effort involved in changing over a 12 or 14 to HAM would be the same for 2.4.

[DavidH]

Swapping bands is easy. It just requires swapping modules. I have swapped from 50 mhz to 72 mhz and vice versa. No problems, just took turning radio off and on a couple of times.
I know other pilots that have swapped from 72 mhz to 35 mhz , 40 mhz, 29 mhz. All just the change of a module.
When Futaba makes a 2.4 module for the 12/14. I am fairly sure it will be as simple as changing a module.

Futaba has 2.4 ghz radio that is going to be released in the near future.

David

[kgfly]

Hmm, notice he said "radio" not "module", one to Bob :wink: If that does happen I bet it will be 7C-class radio not 12/14mz, just my guess, I have no info to back it up.

David - I am not suggesting anything evil, but I am curious what your relationship is with Futaba that you can state this so absolutely ?

[DavidH]

I am a Futaba Team Pilot.


David

[kgfly]

Ahhh, thank you.

[Phaedrus]

I don't do it often, but I think differently than Bob on this one. I believe that they will have a module for the 12 and 14, but it may require to be sent in. I'm not sure on the HAM band conversion, but I think the level of effort involved in changing over a 12 or 14 to HAM would be the same for 2.4.

To go from 72 to 50 MHz on the 14MZ and 12Z simply requires placing the module in the TX and responding to a question asking if you want to change bands at start up. No need to send anything in. Easy as pie.

Anyone notice this. The 14 is a 14 M Z. M as in megahertz.

I wonder if we will see a 14 G Z with G as in Gigahertz!?

[ClayK]

Wasn't sure if you had to send it in for the HAM stuff, but David answered that question. I might be stretching, but I don't see Futaba leaving their flagship radio out in the cold with respects to a module for this particular function.

Every business unit plans this out and R/D's it plenty enough for me to feel confident, especially with a company like Futaba.

[Finless]

Well I for one would be very happy if Futaba does in fact come out with a 2.4 module for the 14mz.... But I do agree with one comment I heard... Selling JUST modules is not a big money maker.... Selling radio systems is. I just have a worry (or sneaky suspision) that it will be a new radio not a module.

Bob

[ClayK]

I am sure they will put out a new radio for park flyers, no disagreement there.

Why would they leave their flagship out in the cold after all their R and D on it and the long release time? My bet is they will release a small 6-8 channel park flyer to be put on the shelves with the 6 series, 7c and maybe the 9c. It would give the crystal versions of their radios a counterpart. From a marketing standpoint, it would not be intended to compete with the 9 super, 9z, 12 or 14. There are just so many more functions to those radios. They clearly are the top of their product line.

Why would they ramp up marketing for the 14 and the 12 only to undercut their sales by putting out a SS radio system to compete at that level? It costs a lot to put out a radio to only phase it out after a couple years. How long has the 12 and 14 been out?? It's just not good marketing sense to release a flagship or premier series of a product only to release something to replace it or compete heavily with it after only a couple of years.

Why wouldn't they release a module and a software update to bring their flagship into line with the technology? It doesn't make good marketing sense to have a flagship model and then outdate and undercut all the level of effort to bring it to the world market by releasing something that would compete directly with it. A park flier radio does not compete with the 14 or 12. It would seem more logical that they would release a module to update the 12 and 14 and perhaps the 9z and super.

They will release a SS radio, David already said so. In addition to that, I would expect to see a module for the 12 and 14. Pilots would rather have a Futaba SS module than a XPS, price not being a factor. Why buy aftermarket when the manufacturer knows all the tech docs on the product and puts out their own version? It's only logical that Futaba will release a module.

[kgfly]

Your logic and theirs may not be the same! The already have your $2k and don't care too much about making you angry with their next release. They never promised you a 2.4 upgrade path.

The profits on high end radios are huge, by bringing out a dedicated 2.4GHz version they get to churn the market and:

- partition the market between FM and 2.4, retaining the flagship in the FM portion

- compete at the top end of the 2.4 market by offering a dedicated flagship product on a known platform

- sell a 2nd unit to some existing customers that cannot bear to give up on the features but want/need the security of 2.4

They don't have to develop a new radio, just a modified case maybe, the internal platform can still be 12z/14z but the customer has to choose between non-modular 2.4 and modular-FM. So they don't lose their sunk R&D investment, in fact they get to re-use it and extend the payback with the small incremental investment to deliver the dedicated 2.4 version. It is simlar to the relationship between 7202 and DX7 where you get to choose between fixed-band synth FM or 2.4.

So I think that if they ever do anything for the 12z/14z there is a reasonable commercial/marketing argument for it to be a dedicated Tx rather than a module.

Fun predicting the future in a vacuum of information, isn't it :wink:

[flyinfool]

That theory may work for dedicated Futaba people.
I can see hanging the current 12/14 owners out to dry as the best thing that could possibly ever happen to JR.

[MarkD]

What's the range of the 2.4Ghz system - less then the current FM freq atm??

I know that the jet/turbine guys here in the UK won't use the Specktrum radios because of lack of range

[kgfly]

The DX6+AR6000 was tested by users to over 5000ft on the ground (one guy in a car with GPS).

The DX7 has been tested by users to extreme range. One recent test took the Rx up in a full scale fixed wing with GPS waypoints. Range with the AR6100 "ParkFlyer" DSM2 Rx was over 5000ft (1.2miles IIRC). Range with the AR7000 "full range" Rx was over 10000ft (2.8 miles IIRC).

Range is NOT a problem and if that is the only issue then the jet/turbine guys are putting their plans at more risk of shoot down/lock outs with their FM radios than they would be with Spektrum.

[kgfly]

That's an interesting data point Mongo. It seems though that many people have indeed had problems, one of the worst of which is shoot-downs. No matter how good your RF link on FM, if someone else comes along on your channel you are in big trouble. The 2.4 solutions are effectively immunes to the Rx decoding the signal from someone elses Tx so that they take over control of your plane and two to three orders of magnitude more resistant a lockout due to noise on the channel.

BTW, I saw a report from one gentleman who successfully used a DX6+AR6000 at 13 miles separation between two mountain tops, the key in that case of course being unobstructed line-of-sight in a remote location which we can presume therefore made for a very low-noise environment.

However I believe that 99.99% of modellers don't need more than 5000ft with maybe another few thousand "oops" room for the jet folk, although how they could possibly see a fast moving model jet at 3000+ feet well enough to fly it is quite beyond me, and I have excellent vision! Hence I say there is no range problem with Spektrum radios, especially when used as per the mfr's guidelines and it is inherent in the nature of spread spectrum technology that they provide a substantially safer RF link than is possible with any variant of FM.

[Tom Fiddler]

Why would Futaba NEED to do anything for the 14MZ?
Lets say the XPS system works perfect for the 14MZ and it sells for $200.
Old MZ owners are happy, new MZ owners are happy, Futaba does not spend any money on SS for their flagship radio.
I think they will bring out a 9ch model, but their between a rock and a hard place with the MZ.
I for one will NEVER spend 2 grand on a radio. It's a rip off plain and simple.
A very nice rip off though.
I have always been a loyal Futaba guy, But I'm not blind to what's going on here.

[krysta]

Hi Guys,

You can swap modules in the US between 72Mhz and 50Mhz easily by simply changing out the modules, but remember that if you want to go from 72Mhz to 35Mhz, 40Mhz, or 29Mhz, your transmitter will need to have the country code changed by the distributor in that country first for the new module to work.

Futaba's 2.4Ghz radio that is coming in the spring will be a 6 channel park flyer that utilizes a true 6 channel system. At this time, this is all the information that we have.


I hope you find this information helpful. You can also reach our Futaba support team at 217-398-8970 opt 2, or via fax at 217-398-7721.

Sincerely,
Krysta Hunt
Product Development & Support Specialist
Futaba Service Center USA




Swapping bands is easy. It just requires swapping modules. I have swapped from 50 mhz to 72 mhz and vice versa. No problems, just took turning radio off and on a couple of times.
I know other pilots that have swapped from 72 mhz to 35 mhz , 40 mhz, 29 mhz. All just the change of a module.
When Futaba makes a 2.4 module for the 12/14. I am fairly sure it will be as simple as changing a module.

Futaba has 2.4 ghz radio that is going to be released in the near future.

David

[kgfly]

Well that's the first formal information we've seen I think, thank you.

* 6-channel
* ParkFlyer (not "full range")
* Northern Spring release

What does "a true 6-channel system" mean ?

I can see the reasoning for Futaba who are probably getting creamed at the low end by the DX6 and therefore not only losing market share there, but losing those vital first-time users to the brand and hence the follow-on Tx upgrade business as well.

I suspect there will be a lot of disappointed folk that were holding out for a Futaba response to the DX7 and expected DX9 (let alone our poor 14mz brethren left hanging in the *cold* FM breeze :wink: ).

[ClayK]

Interesting information, thanks Krysta.

[Finless]

Interesting yes... Means that it will be a lot longer before we 14mz folks that spent $2K on a radio will have 2.4 if we even get it from Futaba.

As I said... selling radios is the idea!

Well I guess I will get on a soap box for a little bit.

My opinion is the DX7 will kill radio sales for everyone (Futaba, JR, AT) on the mid range radios and will put a big dent in the high end as well (14/12mz and JR 10X).

So Futaba is coming out with a park flyer 6 channel... Sheesh big deal! If this is to compete with a DX6 they are WAY BEHIND! DX6 sales have dropped since the DX7 and honestly this Futaba radio wont sell worth a DARN unless you can get it for $100 or something. I mean WHY? A year behind is too far in my opinion!

If I was the president of Futaba RC division I would put 2.4 on a FAST TRACK and try to get ahead of the market ASAP. That would be; go ahead and come out with the park flyer 6 but also VERY QUICKLY come out with a mid range radio (like the 9CHP) and a high end radio on 2.4. If not the revenue on radio sales will drop to nothing and if the DX9 comes out soon that will kill Futaba's high end radio sales so bad that it might even hurt the RC division of Futaba enough to close it. Remember R&D money comes from revenue and profit... The DX9 will clearly kill sales of the 14MZ and that I bet on!

Seeing Futaba come out with a park flyer 2.4 6 channel radio in spring does not make me feel like thay are aware of what the hell the market is doing! They need to be coming out with a radio that will be better than the DX7 at this time! Chasing the market as a underdog is not looking good at this point.

Look... I have flown nothing but Futaba since 1979 and have never owned any other radio since! The 9303 looked good to me and I was considering one when I had a 9C but when the 14MZ came out that was the killer and Futaba showed they just put a top of the line radio out there and set the bar for all other companies to follow.

Then came 2.4g a year ago with the DX6... The radio sucked, it was a total down grade and too much for me to swollow after just buying a 14mz..... but.... TELL ME you Futaba owners were not thinking "this is the future" and I will wait for Futaba?

So now we are getting a 6 channel park flyer radio.... Hmmmmm.... Not impressed.
If it wasnt for XPS and the fact that they are close to a product I honestly would sell my 14MZ and get a DX7 TODAY! But because XPS will allow me to keep my 14mz I am sticking with it but I gotta say, if it wasnt for them my 14mz would be gone!

Now I also gotta say it is pretty bad when a nothing in the radio world like XPS beats a major radio player like Futaba to the punch with 2.4g (oh and JR too BTW). If I was Futaba I would be thanking them as I will be able to sell some radios still! As I state above without them I think JR and Futaba would be hurting in sales in just a FEW MONTHS... but now XPS give those radios some life.... Again my 14mz would be gone had it not been for the promise of XPS... If the XPS system turns out to be junk (and I doubt it) then that will be the case... 14mz gone.. DX7 or 9 in my hands!

Anyway I got on a soap box BUT I like Futaba and have been a loyal customer since 1979. My point of all this is man you guys (Futaba) gotta JUMP on this as fast as possible and stop screwing around releasing a radio that competes with a radio released a year ago! In order to retain market share or actually GAIN market share you need to be coming out with a 2.4 radio for the masses ASAP and stop following the market leaders.

:soapbox

Bob