New Ion-X Belt Drive plus more photos from Esprit Event

[OICU812]

I think the CG would be definetly better with this setup, I found my Ion rolled slow with the lipos logged in low and on side. And I can say you are right the frame on the Ion is hella stiff so likely the plate wouldn't matter either come to think of it. You're right Will flying it in hand and seeing it would probably be the difference as I myself tend to make some bad assumptions till trying a heli etc out....Makes me wish I still had the Ion for sure, trying out 12S was something I did want to do..... CLint will this be available as a new kit or the standard kit than you have to buy this conversion? I would hope you could just buy it all out from the get go, may have to get another one. :fly

[Clintstone]

This is a conversion for now, I am sure it will be offered as a kit. I really like what we did as it takes in the consideration for the canopy mounts that get broken in crashes and with this you can bolt on the new pieces and trash the broken stuff. This is the idea and this part is not complete yet. This is still a work in progress and the second one should be flying this weekend.

[TomC]

Clint,

More imp. when will the Ion-x belt mod be avail with the necessary pulleyies to gear a Neu 1521/1.5?

Cheers,

Tom C

[Clintstone]

Tom what ratio do you need. I flew 3 different ratios on my neu. Let me know and I will find out how close we can get.

[TomC]

Clint,

I'd like to start with something a little stonger than my current 20:1 (with 50T secondary), say ~ 19.5:1 on 10s. Later I'd like to try 11s and 12s and would initially target ~ 21.5:1 and 23.4:1 respectively.

Assuming the main gear (90t) and main gear pinion (15t) stay the same, and that the smallest 5mm motor pulley is 13t, I guess I would be looking at pulley ratios of around 3.25, 3.58, and 3.9:1 respectively, or ~ 42t, 47t, and 51t 6mm pulleys. These are only my rough calcs for a governed hs of ~1950rpm, and I may have missed something.

I'd be very interested in what 3 ratios you used with your Neu 1521/1.5 and your governed hs's. Thanks a lot Clint.

Best regards,

Tom C

[WillJames]

Clint is not running the same top end ratio as the stock 2-stage did Tom. I am not sure what it is, but I could tell it was different. That may be what they are still testing, but not sure. I'm sure Clint will chime in when he can about this.

[sm1nts2escape]

Well I am buying an ion-x next month I was looking forward to having the now old design but I really like the idea of being able to gear to whatever motor I want casue I heard alot about double gears getting chewed up.Are they still going to have the original ion for sale next month or is it going to be the new one?Is the belt mod going to be and upgrade option part?Thanks

[Clintstone]

Tom , I am running 9 1/2 to one uptop.

This is an upgrade for now and I think there will be 2 versions but this stuff will be anounced later.

[TomC]

Thanks for all the info Clint,

I guess that compared to the stock, 90t main, 15t pinion = 6:1 ratio up-top, your 9.5:1 ratio up-top would have a 95t main and 10t pinion right?

This seems to make a lot of sense since it dramatically reduces the bottom belt pulley drive ratios, which most (including Chris in his latest MA tech note) believe should not be any higher than ~2.5:1. I calc this to be rough about what I was targetting for a 12s setup and 1950 gov'd hs.

So all this sounds pretty good on the surface Clint. I just hope that we are not then going to move gear wear from the secondary to the main gear, esp when you start to put 3-4 kw peak through it! I guess the bottom belt drive will help soften some of these problems by absorbing some of the torque-shock from the Neu motor, something the plastic gears cannot do. Although, I still believe that tougher secondary gears, and better bottom motor plate mounting could have been an alternative with the stock setup, at least for 10-11s setups.

Frankly, watching the Ion-x belt drive conversion R&D over almost a year now is starting to look like watching paint dry. I know that MA has had a lot on their plate, getting the Razor up and into production, but man this has been pretty fustrating for many of us Ion-x users.

I'm getting pretty tired of waiting for some 'actual' MA conversion parts so I'm going to go out and buy a 6s1p 3700 Evo20 pack and try it with one of my 5s1p packs for a 11s setup. Also, I'll buy another CC HV85 esc to run it. I really do not believe that the Hacker 77 esc can handle this and the gov mod is useless anyway, although I might sacrifice one of my spare Hacker escs to prove this point!

I'll put on my tried and proven 56t secondary gear (over 60 flights and no wear). This 56t gear is a different colour, not a white as most, and seems to be a lot tougher.

With this setup I should be able to get ~1900-1950 gov'd hs. I also should be able to get ~ +8 min runtime with FAI type flying.

This will probably only take me a week or two to try out. I'll let you know how I make out. Please let me know if I have any 'fatal flaws' in this setup. Thanks.

Cheers,

Tom C

[WillJames]

The new Razor helis are what has slowed the Ion-X belt drive. Versions of the Ion-X belt drive have been flying for a LONG time and being tested a long time in quite a few machines.

To me it is worth the wait, I love my Ion-X, it is my favorite and best flying heli I have ever had or flown. People who have never flown it have no idea what they are missing.

[misskimo]

hey , how does 5 to 1 all the way to 25 to 1 sound

[TomC]

hey , how does 5 to 1 all the way to 25 to 1 sound

Sounds great Mate!

Cheers,

Tom C

[TomC]

Tom , I am running 9 1/2 to one uptop.

This is an upgrade for now and I think there will be 2 versions but this stuff will be anounced later.

So Clint, what overall ratio's were you running with your 3 different Neu setups? Also, how did the power compare to your Actro setups? Many thanks.

Cheers,

Tom C

[Clintstone]

Tom, I like the lower HS and I like the feel and the torque of the actro. I saw more current draw witht he neu over the actro and did way more testing on the actro. The Neu runs great but the lower current draw I saw with the actro was the direction I went in. I may go back to the neu later but the actro is getting it done for me now. The ratio on the neu that I liked the best was I think was 18.4 to 1 I think. I think the Neu would come alive on 12s but it was pretty good on 10s. My actro setup in closing is perfect for me. I have 2 setup the same now.

[TomC]

Clint,

Does not sound like you really fully tested the Neu on a belt drive Ion. Even at 10s you should have been at ~20:1 for your low (1700-1900) hs's.

Properly geared, the Neu should give a more torque at 11-12s than an Acrto and give better runtimes.

I guess you are just addicted to the Actro, which is fine, if it is working well for you.

Cheers,

Tom C

[Clintstone]

Tom, I did not fully test the neu as the actro is what I have used for a base line and I never really got anything really good for the neu and the actro was working so well and as I stated the actro is my baseline. I have been interested in getting flights and trying different ratios with the actro more so than testing the neu. I guess had I seen initial lower current draws with the neu I would have given it more of a chance but the range and power I am seeing from the actro is where I am now.
I was not impressed by the neu but I only bought one.........may not have been the best motor as it was used but I feel it would be better on 12s than 10s.

[cgbole]

hi Clint
What size hole is in the pulleys? 5mm or 6mm?
thanks
chuck

[WillJames]

6mm

[misskimo]

5 mm motor pinions and 6 mm secondary pinions

[Daniel Jetschin]

Nice ..


Where is the sense in that landing gear ? :dontknow

[TomC]

6mm

Pretty sure they are like the Razor, 5mm on the motor and 6mm other.

Also, based on Clint's limited runs, and data, it seems like the Neu 1521/1.5f has not had a full test with a belt drive. If and when MA actually comes out with a proper gear/pulley mod for the Ion, we will be able to try it out. In the meantime: waiting, waiting, waiting!

I really hope that new mods for the Razor do not take as long to come out, like a carbon boom and tail shaft drive, and a better looking canopy. Personally, I will not buy a Razor untill all these come out.

Aside from this;

My 10s Trex600 with my old Ion Hacker motor (C50-15xl) governed to 2200 hs with a CC 85hv esc is working very well. With the new ~$100 shaft drive mod, this heli is out-perfoming my 10s Ion-x.

To make this heli perfect, I looked at adding a MA Razor head and swash. Based on MA prices, this would cost ~$300, or almost 1/2 the cost of a Razor kit. Since the Trex600 head works very well, and the cost to replace it is less than 1/2 the cost of the Razor's, I reckon that many Razor users may replace the Razor head with an Align one after a big crash.

Cheers,

Tom C

[cgbole]

so correct me if i'm wrong guys...
100T main / 10T pinion ------------------------------10:1 ratio
then the pulleys in the 12:1 "kit" on min air's site
16 / 32 ----------------------------------------------- 2:1 ratio
so just add them together to get a 12:1 ratio?
and then running 32-3 on 12s should get me at 2000 head speed?
thanks
chuck

[misskimo]

10.1 times 2.1 = 20 to 1 Chuck ,

[TomC]

Like Tony says, you multiply the interconnected gear ratios. On my Ion, my top gear ratio is 90t main / 15t pinion = 6:1 and my secondary stage is 50t secondary / 15t motor pinion = 3.33:1. So my overall ratio is 6 x 3.33 = 20:1.

I'm pretty sure that the Kv of the Actro 32-3 is 555 (kv = rpm/volt). If you want to target ~2000 hs and say use a gov mode, you will need ~200 headroom. Using 3.8 volts/cell under light load (actually ~3.9-4v initially off the charger for +20c cells) this means that depending on the # of cells you are using you will need an ~ overall ratio of:

For 10s; (10x3.8x555)/(2000+200) = 21090/2200 = 9.6 : 1 ratio. This is pretty close to your top gear ratio of 10:1 so this is probably fine, without any pulleys, or using ~ the same tooth ones. Ideally you would target ~ 1920 gov'd hs with this setup.

For 11s; (11x3.8x555)/(2000+200) = 10.5:1 ratio. Ideally your bottom pulley ratio would be 10.5/10 = 1.05 :1 (ratio = pulley secondary/motor pulley). Again, with a good gov'd esc, like a Kontronik or CC HV, you are probably ok with your current single stage gearing and a gov'd 2000-2100 hs.

For 12s; (12x3.8x555)/(2000+200) = 11.5 : 1 ratio. Ideally your bottom pulley ratio would be ~ 11.5/10 = 1.15:1. This means that you would need ~ a 15t secondary pulley and a 13t motor pulley (15/13) ~ 1.15. I do not think that this combo is available so you would have to go back to the stock Ion gears (90t main and 15t secondary pinion = 6:1). This would mean that your bottom ratio would need to ~ be 11.5/6 = 1.9 :1. So if you have a 16t motor pulley you would need ~ a 30-31t secondary pulley.

Sorry for all the maths Chuck, but this is the basic's of what you need to be able to calc in order to get in the right ball park to begin with imop.

Chris covers most of this in his excellent Razor power systems tech note that is available on the MA WebPages. I think he uses 3.9v/cell, but the rest is the same as what I use. Really worth a read imop.

Cheers,

Tom C

[cgbole]

ok thanks i guess it was a brain fart...
calc like when i used the box on the raptor conversion... duh!
they list a 12:1 ratio on M/A's web site but only pictured the pulley set.
ok so a 30T pulley and a 38 T pulley would get me 1.26666666......
and 95T main and a 10T pinion gets me 9.5 so 9.5 x 1.26 = 11.97.
should be close enough. now just need to work out a mount for the stratus....
thanks guys... :D :idea:
chuck