Newbie starting from scratch

[JorenC]

Hi all, first time poster .... Really amazing resource here--I was up to 3am reading last night.
I'm looking to build a High Def electric helicam and looking for recommendations on where to start. This will be for my amateur projects only, but I am interested in the most stable, fluid setup for my price range. ... and hopefully it will travel not much longer than 1300mm (~4ft) because I may be backpacking it into places. Although this is for my personal projects, I work in the film biz and really value high quality video. I'm interested in hovering and tracking shots, mostly at lower altitudes.

My budget (without HD camera) is only $2500 USD, and will need everything:
Electric Helicopter kit--(as big and stabile as possible that will travel)
Transmitter/Receiver w/servos
Gyros/stabilizers
3 axis camera basket (or 2 axis?)
Standard def video downlink.
Batteries/charger (goal is ~8 minutes of flytime with 1.5 KG camera)

So, for $2.5k all in, what specifically would you get? And is it worth waiting to see how the Logo 500/600 do when they're released? I don't mind building/modifying/fabricating, but need a place to start. Thanks in advance. Now back to reading the archives.

Joren

[Cryofix]

Askman or DJ front mount, E raptor converted, AP2000I, all set =)

[capebob]

I am not an AP pilot, but I know several and I don't think it can be done for $2500 mainly because of battery costs.

The cost aside there are other considerations. Do you have model helicopter flying skills? I sounds like this may be a first helicopter for you and if it is, buy a simulator first then the helicopter before you invest in camera equipment. This hobby is very difficult and it takes some time to become proficient enough to to fly an AP ship with enough skill not to endanger life, limb or property. In fact many would be model helicopter pilots quit in frustration due to the difficulty and expense.

In short, get a sim then a helicopter. Become a really good helicopter pilot then strap on your expensive HD camera and mount. Remember your camera and mount will not survive a crash and I don't think crash damage is covered under the warranty.

If you are already a good helicopter pilot then...never mind. :lol:

Bob

[kgfly]

Capebob makes an excellent point.

In addition, you have set an interesting challenge. The constraints are:

a) < $2500 total starting from scratch
b) < 1300mm packed size
c) Will carry 1.5kg for 8min

It seems both (a) and (b) may be in conflict with (c), particularly (a).

Since you are starting from scratch your budget will need to include:

* Heli
* Blades (often different from stock for AP)
* Tx + Rx + servos + gyro
* Flight stabiliser (eg Spartan 2000i)
* Camera mount
* Camera control system
* Video downlink (airborne and ground elements plus batteries etc)
* Charger, DC power-supply
* Batteries (you really need at least 3 to be able to get enough flight time to learn)

and usually for someone getting started

* Assorted tools
* Assorted shop supplies (CA glue, velcro straps, dbl sided tape etc,)
* Soldering iron (50W minimum)

and then assuming you are just learning to fly an R/C heli:

* R/C simuilator
* Training gear
* Spare parts

You can price out some of this yourself to get a ballpark figure. One way to save money would be to use A123 (LiFe) or emoli (LiIon) battery packs instead of LiPo packs. This can bring your per pack cost down from maybe the $200-$300 range to the $100-$150 range.

I also wonder about the practicality of carrying/bakcpacking a system including the heli, camera mount, batteries, Tx and HD camera. Apart from the weight (my guess, 15-20kg) the sheer bulk would seem impossible for one person to manage.

It will be fascinating to see how you solve these potential problems and what setup you end up assembling.

[MLaBoyteaux]

To put together an AP package for video, it might be easier to start with the camera, and work from there. You mention a 1.5kg camera, which sounds like something in the range of a GL-2 or something?

For HD, you're either going to be lifting something like the Sony HC-1 or HC-3, which are around 1kg. The next step up is a Sony FX-1 or Canon's new HD camera, which are both around 2~2.5 kg.

I'm not aware of all HD cameras which are available, so there might be something in between, but defining the physical size and weight will determine what size platform you need to lift it.

You could get away with lifting a 1 ~ 1.5 kg camera and front mount with a Logo or Raptor, but in my opinion, once you hit the 2kg mark, you're looking at a Maxi Joker.

Trying to start from scratch and keep it under $2500 is going to be a challenge.

[JorenC]

Thanks for the responses. Yes, I'm new(er) at this and realize helicam is a long way off. However, I don't want to buy myself into corner and end up with a bird I can't modify, won't reasonably meet my criteria, or will end up being too expensive. Same goes for radio gear. That said, the $2500 is the range I'd like to be in. I know replacement parts and tools will be purchased along the way. If the best helicopter ends up costing 10% more, I'm not gonna worry.

As for my 1.5 KG weight, it is a somewhat arbitrary one. Initially I hope to carry the canon hv20 which won't be out until april but will likely be >1KG. However, I'd like to eventually get a 3-chip camera in there--as these products get smaller.

So, if you'll indulge me in some follow ups:
-I've read great things about A123 batteries, but how bad is the weight/power tradeoff compared to LiPo?

-This thread (http://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=26663) seems to be especially relevant to me. Is a stretched, heavily modified e550 be a smarter choice than a trex 600 or logo 14? It seems like a lot of the parts can be interchanged, so why is one better than the other? The frame design? I hope to front mount the camera, is the modified e550 less nose heavy than the e620?

-as far as camera gimbal control, is it reasonable or possible to smoothly control the heli and a 2-3 axis gimbal with one person? one radio? I know a second camera operator is possible, but what are the solo options?

-finally a flying question: Just how bad will these small helios be around updrafts caused by cliffs or the ocean assuming the wind itself isn't too bad? On a calm day could I fly along a beach, up over a 100' cliff? And related, how fast will a camera carrying helicopter be able to fly?

[Cryofix]

"-finally a flying question: Just how bad will these small helios be around updrafts caused by cliffs or the ocean assuming the wind itself isn't too bad? On a calm day could I fly along a beach, up over a 100' cliff? And related, how fast will a camera carrying helicopter be able to fly?"

Minimum size is a 500 Like the lepton, but would go with a 30 size just to be safer, the 500 or less will get blown all over the place making it very hard and not as satisfying to fly, sorry for my short post earlier, they are all good starting points and it was late.

I do remember seeing an APV guy about 6 months back that had an all in one back pack rig, he had it all setup where the heli strapped on his back to a backpack and all his gear fit, with batteries and all your lookin at adding 50lbs to your setup, gonna be tough to lug around.

[JorenC]

*bump*

So, this is the direction I'm thinking, keeping in mind the camera payload is 1.3 lbs (600 grams):

Futaba 9c TX --still unclear what the best TX is for both solo and dual cam/heli operators
e550 kit (Saw in another thread Gary @ ttpacks offered a G10 setup with motor for $700)
Titan boom stretch with 680 mains
10s2p A123
AP2000i with IR sensor
a 200-500 mW 2.4 GHZ video downlink


As for the front camera mount, I really like the idea of Spartan RC's Vision Lock with 2-axis gyro stabilization and would be inclined to get the mount too, but can't find anyone online using it. Askman's website is a little confusing when looking for front mounts, but I'd certainly consider any of them based on reputation (people sure do love them), but not sure how active stabilization will work. Also, I'm a little worried about the ~3 lbs payload (cam plus mount/gyros/electronics). I might start with the A123 batteries to train with a lighter camera (and save money), and then go to LiPos to save weight when I fly the 1.3 lbs camera. Is this necessary? If Vision Lock works well, I'd be willing to blow my budget a little.

I welcome thoughts on any of this. Thanks.

[dreslism]

A123 may be the way to go when starting out. You can get more of them for the money than lipos, so you can get more stick time in while learning.

Also if you put it into the ground (chances are high being new to it), then the A123 cells are more likely to survive a crash. Dent or puncture your expensive lipo pack and you throw it away.

Also just so you know (in case you have not read it yet) front mounts will be harder to setup so they are smooth and vibe free than an underslung mount, and can be very frustrating, especially if you don't have a lot of experience with helis in the first place.

Welcome to the addiction. :mrgreen:

Also there are folks who load up their gear on their back and go for a hike. :D

http://gravityshots.com/heli/dsp_root_pop_image.cfm?image=10-20-04_backpack.jpg

[GGoodrum]

Panasonic has a new 3CCD HD camera (HDC-SD1) that records 40 minutes on a 4GB SD card, (I think DJ has one already. :) ) and weighs less than a pound. With that, you could easily lift it with a Logo 10, using a single 10-cell a123 pack. That setup will be a lot easier to pack in than a Raptor.

I also think you need to start with a good simulator, like RF 3.5, Reflex XTR or Phoenix RC. With a Logo 10-based setup with a123 cells, I think you can stay under your $2500 budget, including a simulator.

-- Gary

[JorenC]

I'm very much unimpressed with AVCHD so far. With the camera I'm getting, I will be able to record HDMI uncompressed once I figure out the downlink problem. For now, I'll live with the HDV quality, especially at a cost of only ~100 grams over that panasonic. Still, the camera and mount purchases are months away--after I'm more experienced with whatever helicopter I get. Things may change.

I'm fully aware of the learning curve. I have a simulator, and I have another RC helicopter I'm flying. Just it's a fixed pitch micro and nothing will transfer over. ... and I don't know much about the components of the larger birds

I very certain I want a front mount, regardless of the increased balancing/tuning difficulties. With that said, will a logo 10 lift more? Or are the Raptors just front heavy and impossible to balance with a front mount camera? I was thinking that since the Raptors are larger and heavier, they'd be more stable and more able to meet my 3 Lbs. for 8 minutes goal. Am I wrong? If the raptors are front heavy, I'd consider getting my own g10 frame CNC'd to allow the batteries to mount farther back. This should increase the moment of inertia, making it more stable. Or would that make the tail rotor and gyro work too hard?

[AZ ChopperCam]

Record using HMDI? that's like 800gb/hour! What type of camera/storage on board? Or are you planning to broadcast the HDMI stream to the ground?

How exactly are you planning to do this on a $2500 budget and within the weight limitations of 3lb?!

Your comment of moment of inertia is correct. My front mounted Raptors were counterweighted with 10S flight pack and I had put the tail servo back on the boom. It really damped the yaw/pitch motion quite well.

What is it about AVCHD that leaves you unimpressed? I've been in video production for many many years and my honest opinion is AVCHD suites aerial video work nicely. Sure, it would be great to put a Sony 900 in the air but that's unrealistic and you have to make compromises. The latest solution from Panasonic (sd1) I think is going to be what alot of guys will be running until another 3ccd HDV camera (around 16oz.) comes out.

[JorenC]

it would be a downlink for sure, but I'm not sure how it'll be done. HD-SDI downlinks weigh less than 2 lbs already. That'll give me 4:2:2 uncompressed. I'm thinking in a year or so there'll be more HD downlink options. AVCHD on paper is a much more robust codec than HDV. However, I haven't seen a AVCHD camera produce a better image than even the medium quality hdv cams. Last year I did a commercial for the sony line of AVCHD cameras and it they were not great--pretty much designed as a blogging camera. I'm sure the 3-ccd panny will be better. But I'm skeptical it'll be that much better. But, this is all a few months away for me, after I've built and been fly for a while. We'll see what is out there then. The goal is whatever I get will cut with the Red camera so color space is just as important as screen resolution.

So, no one's really talked me out of the Raptor E550, so I think that's the direction I'll go. Thanks!

[MLaBoyteaux]

The Red camera on front of a Turbine Observer would be the bomb!

[R Hudson]

JorenC,

Plan on being patient............VERY patient.

I always like to encourage people to move forward, but if a helicam is your ultimate goal, learn to fly proficiently first, then decide which heli to get for AP. Maybe you'll make the first choice right off the bat or maybe you'll find you need to upgrade.

I recommend a Logo 10. If you want, do the 550 stretch right away since there are more 550mm blades available. Fly the snot out of it. Get used to flying in all orientations, autorotations, then practice high-precision flying. Practice hovering carefully on one spot and at different altitudes, and moving very smoothly from one spot to another, etc. If you're flying a fixed pitch heli, it's not going to help your learning too much. A simulator is a great thing, but there's no substitute for the real thing. The pucker factor is always higher during the real thing. Once you're comfortable with all these things, you're probably ready.

Best of luck:)

R

[wolfclick]

I too am just starting out and eventually have a goal of AP. So, if I may chime in I think I may have something for you to consider as I have. Some advice that I received from rcgroups.com made sense to me.

I have been using the G4 sim (I think any SIM will do) for mainly learning orientation (which is not as easy as you’d think – but a lot easier than when I started.) :) Had I used a real heli, I would have said FORGET IT! I couldn’t keep up with the cost. Having said that, if you decide to get a SIM, fly it like it’s real. I got too used to crashing and wasn’t learning. If you have a calculator next to you and add $50 to $100 for each crash, it puts it into perspective. :shock:

Now, SIM is different than REAL as you will read many times on this forum, so I am handing down the advice that you get a smaller bird (the Honey Bee Mk3 from hobby-lobby.com) and fly that thing until you are really proficient in all orientation. You should be able to get proficient for a few hundred bucks (because parts are cheaper and the bird is less likely to do major damage.)

Once you have reached this level, then take the plunge, as then you should be able to fly almost anything you want. Since we are not interested in 3D, but AP, it all boils down to stability especially in hover and endurace (longest flying time possible.)

I would also like to use video, but it’s gonna be on a Canon A560 for now, so I was looking to get a T-rex 500 or Logo 10, and use the AP2000I, with an Askman’s mount.

Can anyone give pro’s or cons on the two? Trex 500 vs. Logo 10 for AP? I am looking for stability and endurance over 3D, etc. Comments on blades to use, batteries, etc???
Thanks everyone for all input on these forums – great time to get into this hobby/passion.

Wolf