CC85HV or Kontonik 55-10-32 on RAZOR

[j.p.75]

I have received my new razor today...

I am interested to mount the kontonik tango 45-08 motor, where it's the best regulator for this motor? Kontronik or CC85HV...

I use FlightPower 5S 4350 akku's
Fromeco Dual voltage Ragulator + Fromeco peerless 2400 mah akku on board...


Best Regards

J.P.

[TomC]

After my initial exp. with a HV85/Tango motor, I'd go with the Kontronic Jazz 55-10-32 myself.

Cheers,

Tom C

EDIT; I have just had to send my HV85 back to CC for repair. just got a note back from CC that says, do not run the Tango motor higher than 13khz pwm freq, even thought the Tango instructions say to run it above 32khz. CC says that they have tested this motor on all 3 freq's that they offer (13,26,52khz) and the motor did not run any differently, Just the esc got hotter at higher freq's.

[Aussieheliguy]

Can't beat the CC for bang for buck value JP. IMO CC is very good

[WillJames]

I am running the CC HV-85 with my Tango 45-08 and it flys very nicely. I have it running 1800 to 1950 in GOV mode and it is really sweet.

[PG 378]

We have the CC Hv-85 with our Hacker A50-14S.

[Clintstone]

My 85 is running flawless on my Razor with the 45-08. I think this is a very good combination. After tweaking and finding the setting which I like the best I have not had to mess with it at all. It just flies great and predictable.

[TomC]

J.P.75,

Because you live in Switzerland, you might be better to stick with the Kontronik power combo (Tango and Jazz 55-10-32 esc) since local servicing is next door, in Germany.

The Jazz esc automatically selects the best pwm frequency based on the motor inductance. In the case of the Tango, I believe it selects and uses ~32khz. The CC HV85 components can really only handle 13khz max. Based on the very large number of runs that Clint has on this combo, this does not seem to be a problem as far as motor life goes.

I think the main issue is motor efficiency. A very low inductance motor like the Tango will always be more efficient (and hence run cooler) at a high, +32khz pwm frequency. I have tested this out with my Tango 45/08 and Hacker 77-heli esc. The hacker esc has 3 pwm freq options; 8, 16, and 32khz. After 8 minute runs on my 10s Trex600, the motor is ~15 deg F cooler at 32khz than at 16khz. Whether this means an additional 20 seconds more runtime or +1 minute, I do not know, but it's probably somewhere inbetween.

I guess another thing to consider is whether or not you want to go to 12s later. If you do, then the HV85 is capable of this and the Jazz 55-32-10 is not.

So, both will work. You need to weight up all the pros and cons and decide yourself. Let us know which way you went.

Cheers,

Tom C

[Clintstone]

Tom, you spoke of motor temps and effeciency , what performance difference did you see.......... I am seeing more power output as the CC 85 seems to deliver more power to my 45-08 and regardless of any settings the power output alone , if it is able to flow more power thru the esc to the motor( ex. the lower internal impediance of the CC85 ) would the motor have a slightly higher temp if it is doing more work? This is a question and longevity is not the question here as there are several models out there running the 45-08 and 85 combination. I noticed a big difference in power when I went to the 85............several guys re geared after switching from the Jazz as they too felt they were getting more power. I actually had the same flight time and better performance but that would maybe not be a true statement across the board as the beauty of electric is that everyone's flying style and electric demand is different. Some pilots embrace electric flight while others just fly without thinking of efficientcy and settup which gets into gearing and searching for the best settup for ones style. Man it is earlier for all this thought provoking stuff isn't it................ :?

J P 75 it will be good to hear feed back from you after you fly your choice, they are both great controls as Tom said. It would be great to try them side by side and see how each work with your style or what you like when you fly. Good Luck and we all are looking forward to hearing from you.

[TomC]

Clint,

I did not notice any power differences between the Hacker esc and the HV85. Both resulted in exactly the same 100% flatline, fixed endpoints, 0 deg pitch hs = 2080 rpm with my 10s setup and 10.46:1 gear ratio. This hs did not vary when I tried 16 and 32khz pwm fequencies and flight power seemed the same. The only thing that varied was the motor temps, cooler at 32khz, so I have concluded that higher pwn freq = better efficiency with the Tango motors.

If and when I get my HV85 back from CC I'll try gov mode again and see if this makes any difference or not. The hacker esc does not have a usable gov mode. I know, I have tried it, and it is very unstable.

Again, I think this pwm issue is a fine-tunning thing and does not significantly effect the overall performance. Fun to play with though!

Cheers,

Tom C

[WillJames]

Clint,

I did not notice any power differences between the Hacker esc and the HV85. Both resulted in exactly the same 100% flatline, fixed endpoints, 0 deg pitch hs = 2080 rpm with my 10s setup and 10.46:1 gear ratio. This hs did not vary when I tried 16 and 32khz pwm fequencies and flight power seemed the same. The only thing that varied was the motor temps, cooler at 32khz, so I have concluded that higher pwn freq = better efficiency with the Tango motors.

If and when I get my HV85 back from CC I'll try gov mode again and see if this makes any difference or not. The hacker esc does not have a usable gov mode. I know, I have tried it, and it is very unstable.

Again, I think this pwm issue is a fine-tunning thing and does not significantly effect the overall performance. Fun to play with though!

Cheers,

Tom C


I DID notice a power increase on 3 machines.
1. Ion-X with 1521 on Hacker it was hot, when I went to the 110 it stripped a secondary and needed a lot tighter mesh to contain the beast. This was in straight AIR (Non GOV) Mode. The CC HV-110 was a noticible improvement. This was before the 1.5x versions and before all the adjustability. HC was flying it and Clint was there as a witnesses. :WOW This was on the original run of HV-110 controllers from CC. This was on 10s4p setup Ion-X at 12 to 12.5 pounds.

2. T-REX 600 with NEU 1512 on 6s 4900 EVO's. After changing controllers on first flight paddle twisted on the flybar doing a lot harder tic tocs and needed new CA. (Yea I CA mine) We were like, WOOOOHOOO Baby!!

3. Ion-X going from Hacker/32-3 to HV-110 and 32-3. Very nice smooth consistent power. Ask HC if it had more power and about when we had the 110mm V-Paddles on it. ;)

Sometimes it is hard to get the setup 100% Tom but I must have been lucky and also lucky to have Clint help get them set. Took us about 3 hours total to have all my stuff flying killer on HV85's and a HV110. I could probably fine tune more, but I have not made time to do any more than fly in between crappy weather. :(

I am sure Clint could see the power and overall better consistency. Pretty cool, I don't care if I have to send any back, and I have actually had to send that original 110 back after we got the very first EVO 3700 packs. :WOW

For me, there is no better setup right now. The Jazz is a close second. Schulze or Hacker is third. That is my personal preference.

[TomC]

Will,

I did not notice any power increase with my Ion going to the HV110 with +1.51-1.55 software. I remember you puffed a couple of flight packs early on with your's so maybe this was a software issue.

My Hacker 77 heli esc ran fine, and stayed cool on 100% flatline throttle. If I tried to use a v-curve, like 100-85-100 it started to get hot though.

I do not have a Jazz esc so I really cannot compare it's gov mode, but I understand it is quite good. My understanding is that the Jazz keeps ~7% top-end power in reserve in gov mode to allow for headroom. The HV escs do not do this, so I guess if you don't mind pushing the envelope a bit, you can probably squeak a bit more power out of them.

All things being equal, say with 100% flatline throttle curves, I doubt that any of these escs would result in significant power output differences imop.

Anyway, glad these escs are working well for you. I'm prety happy with my HV110 on the Ion, gov'd to 1800 hs and I look forward to getting my HV85 back from CC soon to try it out again.

Cheers,

Tom C

[BobbySmith]

Im going to drop my 2 cents in last year when i was flying My Ions i tried a CC110 puffed 2 of my best FP packs i also got a nue mtoor so Hot it some what demagged it i called CC they didnt have much to say and wanted me to do some mroe testing i figured No way!!!

So i went back to the trusty old hacker 77-0 and loved it no issues..... I felt like you Tom very frustrated

Any ways i started running the Jazz's the middle of last year i like them alot untill i noticed with certain motors the motors would run hot so started searching for another Esc Jeti Spin's was the next venture they were working very well ther was a few things i didnt like about them
But then i got reading about what Clint and Will was doing with the CC stuff and noticed there was a couple things differant about there setups something i always had wondered about they were doing
So Boom i ordered a CC85 and a CC45 and guess what after programming both of them they took a dump i was pretty :arggg: :arggg: .. So i called CC talked to Bernie he said he would get me a couple more out as soon as possible so while i was waiting i ordered another CC85 and another CC45
The 85 replaced a Jazz in one helicopter and i would have to say there is definately a power differance and then i replced a Jeti in another machine wiht the 45 and there was a power differance
All 4 of my Emachines have CC'S inthem now in Gov mode and are running flawless
One thing i have noticed is when programing wiht the CClink make sure you power up and take power off in the right order or it will toast the controller also once you have calibrated in fixxed mode any change in endpoints or throttle trim resets the whole esc and you have to reprogram

Iam actually seeing lower motor temps wiht the CC controllers

Bobby

[Aussieheliguy]

I also noticed a performance inprovement in my ION moving from a CC85 to a CC110, less resistance I guess. I never noticed any heat issues with the controllers, always cool. I have two 85's and one 110, all v1.55, setup as per Clint's and CC's directions. All very consistent day in, day out. I don't have any complaints...

[TomC]

I think that a lot of these observations of higher motor performance with the CC HV controllers is due to how the Esc's motor timing works. In general, low pole count motors like low timing and high pole count motors (like many outrunners) like a higher motor timing advance.

The Jazz esc's use 'dynamic timing', that is they vary the motor timing based on the load on the system. This is supposed to improve overall efficiences, esp at low power levels, like when you use the esc to gear-down the heli. You do not have any control over this, it's all 'black-box'. I suspect if you do not have your setup 100%, so you are almost bogging the motor, the esc will respond and try to increase the motor timing and this will probably cause an increase on motor temps and probably battery temps as well.

The CC HV escs have 3 user selectable timing settings; low advance = 0-5 deg, med advance = 5-15 deg (default), and high advance = 15-30 deg. The CC esc selects a motor timing within the range you have selected at startup. I'm not sure, but I do not think that it is 'dynamic' over the spread of the range.

The CC esc may end up selecting a motor timing that might be more aggressive than the Jazz. This might give a bit more 'performance' but will also potentially increase motor temps and reduce runtimes. Like Bobby says, it probably depends a lot on the motor used. Diff combos, and setups, will give diff results.

My old Hacker 77-heli esc w/prog box, allows you to actually set the timing to any number from 0-30 deg. I have done a lot of experimenting with this and ended up using 5 deg advance for my Neu 1521/1.5f motor. Using 8 deg actually did give a little more power but I found the motor ran a little warmer than I liked it. I found that 5 deg was the best compromise for perfomance/efficiency for my setup.

When I first installed my new HV110 on my Ion-x I started with the default med advance settings. I started with fixed endpoints and I did notice that the the heli had a little more zip. I also noticed that the Neu motor temps were higher. My battery pack temps were up a bit as well. So I adjusted the motor timing to low advance (0-5 deg) and motor and battery temps, and power returned to the same 'balanced' levels that I had been gettting with my hacker esc.

Anyway, I hope this helps explain the apparent power differences between diff escs.

Cheers,

Tom C