Thinking about diving into heli's- need some advice

[zimm]

I did do some searching and reading, but most info is setup stuff, not what model to get.

I'm a Navy helicopter pilot, but I hear that doesn't really help with RC flying. I've been wanting an RC helo for 10 years now. I'm thinking I should go with an electric so I can fly it in my yard and it won't annoy the neighbors.

This site is all for the Trex 450, which looks like a great helo. But how about for a first timer? Which 450? I have no RC related stuff for aircraft, so I'd need everything- from the radio to the battery charger. Should I get a used or new one?

The readiheli.com newbie guide recommends the Corona and NOT a 3D for the first heli. What do you guys think?

If the answer is the 450- what model? I'd like the ready built one. How about the all inclusive $1000 kit that comes with everything. Is that the way to go? Or should I go with a cheaper model and buy everything separate? I'm pretty clueless on this and would love some advice. Not sure what the starter budget is for a heli. I don't plan to do any crazy 3D stuff, just hovering around the yard mostly, at least at first.

I like to buy something quality once rather than junk 3 times. I do need something really crash resistant though.

Also, I have a mac, so rc simulator programs probably aren't going to work for me.

[WayneBrown]

First, Look up Robert Johns uname; realflight or Zak Johns uname; LilZ as they are the local experts to Va Beach, and very knowledgable and helpful.
if your budget dictates that you buy used, buy from someone reputable.
As far as an all-inclusive combo, they are usually lacking in quality somewhere, that's the rule not the exception as there are some good combos offered.

You should buy the Tx/ Rx new if possible, or gently used if you trust the individual, bear in mind that you may not get all the documentation with it used..

If you are really dedicated to buying something relatively soon, want used, and are willing to wait a few days for shipping I have a trex 450 with parts that I can throw a charger with, You'll have to buy radio transmitter and reciever though.

[vera]

I'm a Navy helicopter pilot, but I hear that doesn't really help with RC flying.


You hear right. I guess it would be something like flying a full size heli while sitting in a swivel chair and facing in different directions. And the collective is backwards too. When I got into the hobby the guy at the LHS told me it was going to be more difficult for me than somebody who never flew. I didn't believe it, too much head pressure I guess, but my wreck record proved him right. I finally faced the fact that I needed training gear and a lot of practice getting used to this variable orientation thing. But the information all applies, except that the models aren't bothered by retreating blade stall due to the high rotor rpm compared to max possible forward speed.

[fllyer]

I agree with Wayne and vera (at least on the R/C part, I have no clue to real helis).

The only thing I can think of to add is get the biggest and best quality heli you can afford and still have cash left over for spare parts for repairs after several crashes.

[BarracudaHockey]

All your cues are visual, you can't "feel" the helicopter starting to do things and correct right away. That and I want to see you hover your H-60 inverted :D

You do have a good foundation for understanding how things work though and if you are smart enough to put your ego in your back pocket and learn from someone thats not a "real" pilot you will be successful.

I'm a fixed wing (plank) instructor at our local club and once every few months out we will see a new guy unpacking a trainer and ask if they need help. "No thanks I fly the real ones I'm sure I can manage with this" "Are you sure, things are a bit different?" "Yea I got it covered" at that point we pull up the chairs, break open a coke and get a trashbag so they can carry all the pieces back to their car. Sadly they usually quit at that point without ever getting to enjoy the hobby for what it is.

[kgfly]

Hi Zimm,

Welcome to helifreak and a new addiction :D
You asked for opinions so here are a few of mine (remember, this is all my opinion, others may disagree):

Learning about heli construction/tuning/setup
Watch the Finless videos: http://helifreak.com/viewforum.php?f=95

At a minimum watch the TRex 450SE series, but really there is something to learn from almost all of them across all the different helis. Not everyone agrees 100% with Bob's advice on all things, but through his videos (and in person) he has helped hundreds (maybe thousands?) of folk get their helis built and running sweetly.

There are lots of other useful sites, for example:
http://trextuning.com/
http://littlerotors.com/

Learning to fly
* Use training gear. You can make your own out of CF rod and plastic golf practise balls (or ping pong balls or the polystyrene balls you can get in craft shops).

* Check out RADD's flight school, a lot of people have found it really helpful: http://www.dream-models.com/eco/flying-index.html

* Get a sim

What simulator?

An R/C simulator is a fantastic training aid. Most people find them very useful and lots of fun, although a few just find them tedious. IMO any of the sims mentioned below will pay for itself many times over, plus they will give you something to do when going outdoors isn't possible.

The better ones are quite demanding on your PC, especially the graphics card, so beware that investing in a sim might also mean upgrading your PC. You need something like (or better than) a P4/2Ghz + 512MB RAM + 128MB 3d graphics card (at a minimum something like a Radeon 9600XT, but a Radeon X1600 or NVidia 6800GT would be much better).

FMS is free and although the graphics are a bit dated and the physics not great, it is still a valuable tool ,especially when first learning. The helis are too easy to fly but that's OK at the start, you spend less time crashing and more time getting used to flying. You will need a cable for your Tx (which you don't have yet!) or you can get a Tx-style USB controller from Ebay for about $40 (just search for ESky USB simulator). Otherwise you can even use a USB gamepad to get started. I like the USB cable from milehighwings.com but there are cheaper ones around now too.

ClearView is fantastic value giving you a full blown R/C simulator with excellent graphics and physics and many features for only $30. Again, you can use it with your own Tx, an Esky USB Tx or a USB gamepad. CV has a demo you can download and fly for 20mins to see if you like it.

Phoenix, RealFlight/G3.5 and Reflex/XTR are the market leaders with FS One and Aerofly Pro Deluxe also competing. These are all in the $150 to $300 range. The first three are all excellent but my preference at the moment is Phoenix.

What radio ?
No question, Spektrum DX7 with an AR6100 for your TRex450 (save the AR7000 that comes bundled with the Tx for your T600 or sell it to fund other bits). There is no other 6 or 7 channel radio worth buying. Some may have individual features that appeal, but the safety, reliability, performance and convenience of the DX7 puts it *way* ahead of everything else currently available. Many folk are even selling off their 9ch radios having tried the DX7.

While the DX7 is likely to be all you will need, the range of 2.4GHz spread spectrum solutions is set to expand during 2007. Some people like the 9ch Tx for their extra features. If that's the case then Spektrum is rumoured to be releasing a DX9/10 this summer. Futaba recently released their 6ch 2.4Ghz unit so perhaps will follow up with a fancier 9ch unit, but who knows? Meanwhile if you are in a hurry then a good looking option that will become available next month (due out by the Toledo show in mid-April) is a JR9303 together with a Tx module and Rx from XPS: http://www.xtremepowersystems.net/xtremelink.php

What heli ?
In general, bigger is more stable, easier to see, easier to learn and easier to fly. It is also more expensive to buy, equip, fly and repair. For eHelis the cost of batteries increases rapidly with size. Batteries for a T450 range from $35 to $120, batteries for a T600 range from $200 to $450!

It also depends where you want to fly. Bigger helis (say, over ~400mm main blades) are generally considered too dangerous for backyard/local park flying so you need a dedicated R/C flying field or a remote site of some sort.

IMO it's hard to go past an Align TRex450 for value for money, performance, availability and cost of parts and general suitability for local fun. I would love it if Align had a slightly larger bird in the 400mm range, but even their rumoured T500 will be larger than that (450-500mm).

So which TRex450 ?
While the S/SA is a good deal, if you can afford the SE it really is a much better choice. The all metal head and tail not only perform better (probably only matters if you get into 3D) but are vastly more robust. That means less time and money spent on repairs and more spent flying.

At the moment there are excellent runout deals on the recently outdated SE model (just replaced a couple of weeks ago by the official Align SEv2) and that would be my recommendation. IMO the new aspects of the V2 are of no benefit to a beginner and it will be more expensive to repair.

What electronics for my TRex SE ?
Motor/ESC: Cannot beat the Align 430L + 35G/X that usually come bundled with the SE kit in terms of performance/value for money. Other combos will give incrementally better performance but for many $$$$ and until/unless you are heavily into 3D you won't see any benefit. The new 430XL motor is also fine but is thirstier than the 430L with no real benefit for a learner.

Swash servos: 3 x Hitec HS-65MG

Gyro: Logictech 2100T (cheaper, smaller and lighter than the famous Futaba GY401 with reviewers to date reporting the same or better performance). If you are unsure about trying the new guy on the block then by far the most recommended gyro for the T450 is the GY401.

Tail servo: For learning an HS56 is fine but if you want top performance then a digital tail servo like a JR DS3400G, Futaba S9650, S3154 or HDS577 will be needed

Blades Align Pro 325 woodies or TechMP 325 woodies. Until/unless you get into 3D these blades will do everything you need at a low enough price that when you crash and destroy them it hardly hurts at all :lol: If you get the new SEv2 I recommend you keep the lovely CF blades for later and get yourself a few pairs of 325 woodies for learning.

What batteries ?
Typically 3S 11.1V ~2100mAh 20C. The market leaders are probably the FlightPower EVO range and the Thunder Power ProLight range. The EVOs seem to have the edge in outright performance.

IMO, as a learner it's better to consume the lifetime of cheaper batteries while pottering around hovering and learning to fly when you have no need for the extra performance of premium batteries. You can usually get the cheaper brands (eg DN or Hextronik) for as little as half the price of the market leaders. They won't perform as well and may not last as long, but for me it has worked out well. I have been using 3 hextronik batteries (3S 2200mAh 12C/16C) from unitedhobbies.com which together cost me barely more than one FlightPower EVO would have. Lots of folk have had good experiences with the Hextroniks and with their new 3S 2200 20C/30C packs selling at ~$36 you cannot go far wrong.

What charger/balancer ?
This is not a place to save money. Lipos can be very dangerous and are expensive. You want a reliable and safe charger that will optimise the lifetime of your batteries.

If you think you are unlikely to grow into larger helis than the TRex450 class (3S or 4S packs) or you want to go cautiously then I recommend either the FMA CellPro4s or the eStation BC6. These are all excellent products. They are integrated balance chargers so you don't need to get a separate balancer. The CellPro4S is LiIon/LiPo/LiFe only whereas the eStation chargers do the tradition chemisties (NiCd/NiMH/Pb) as well. The BC6 is nice as it includes an integrated ac/dc power supply whereas the others require an external DC supply.

On the other hand if you think you are likely to move up to bigger helis (TRex500, Lepton, QJ-EP8, Swift, Logo10, TRex600, eRaptor etc, etc) then you could buy a higher end charger now in anticipation. In this case take a look at the eStationBC8, eStation 902+PB6, Hyperion 1210-A+LBA10 or ThunderPower TP1010+210.

other stuff
Never try to save money on tools, it will cost you in the end.

* LiPo connectors, I am using deans
* ball link pliers (optional, not really needed for a T450 IMO)
* ball link sizer (not needed for a T450 and easy to make your own)
* Align main blade balancer
* High quality hex driver set (use the screwdriver handle sets)
* Rotor pitch gauge
* Loctite 243 ("blue" non-permanent threadlock)
* double-sided foam tape
* non petroleum-based silicone spray lube
* digital caliper (or just a good metric ruler with 1mm and 0.5mm markings)
* soldering iron (50W minimum)
* self-adhesive velcro (thin backing)
* good quality Phillips-head screw drivers size 00, 0 and 1.
* hobby knife and a pack of blades
* CA glue (thin and medium)

Spares
4 x pair 325 Pro wooden blades
2 x pkt flybars
1 x pair paddles (just get the cheap black plastic ones)
2 x pkt of main shafts
2 x pkt of main gears
2 x pkt of feathering/spindle shafts
1 x pkt main shaft bearings
1 x Align bump-resistant landing gear (or better, Gorilla gear-tall)
1 x pair tail blades (just get the cheap black "batman" ones)

==========
Whew! Well I hope that's some help. There are no dumb questions and there is a great deal to learn, which is part of what makes this hobby so addictive. Good luck with this new adventure.

[SPChooten]

Hey Sir,

Im located in newport news......There is a really nice club here, that flys both, I am a newbie like yourself. And could not repay some of the members for what they have givin me in knowlege. if you want to look them up i think the web site is www.newportnewsrc.org. Try to get hold of a guy named Al he is the heli intructor but anyway hope to meet another newbie

SPC Hooten
US Army
UH-60 CrewChief

[Hughes500Bob]

When I had fixed wing pilots for helicopter training, I told them "The only thing you know is how to use the radio!" For this .... The only thing you know is the terminology and the basic physics of gyroscopic precession. During a build you should be familiar with all the component names.

You will sweat as much during your first R/C hover as you did on your first training flight! RADDs flight school takes a very structured and similar approach to real flight training. I like it A LOT!!!! I am sure it will "CLICK" for both of us with lots of practice. I am psyched and totally addicted already. Get a good sim and fly it a lot. I am using Phoenix.

[Jermo]

<cut>If you are really dedicated to buying something relatively soon, want used, and are willing to wait a few days for shipping I have a trex 450 with parts that I can throw a charger with, You'll have to buy radio transmitter and reciever though.

hehe..I've seen both of Waynes T-Rex 450's and they fly awesum!! He was cutting up doing flips/rolls/piro's/inverted...
Sometimes all at the same time :WOW

Had I not purchased a 2nd new T-Rex before visiting Wayne in Augusta I'd have bought one of his birds.
Jermo

[sleddog7]

Zimm, I'd get a T-Rex... Reason being, it's a very stable heli for it's size and cost. Second reason for the electric... no engine break-in period and messing with idle and high speed needle adjustments. You're new and will have your hands full as it is.

Watch and follow the Finless set-up videos and use training gear.

Like the guys said, use the sim...use it ALOT, wear it out! As you've heard, it doesn't matter if you fly full scale, it ONLY gives you at the most, a 10% head start with r/c flying; Trust me I know this. Other than that you're in the same boat as a true newbie.

As Barracuda said it's all visual cues and your soon-to-be-honed, cat-like reflexes that will get you to react smooooothly to an un-commanded action of the heli. Tail-in hovers will be *fairly* easy for you... It's the side-in, nose-in and any other hover in between that will throw you a curve, you'll see that when you get on the sim. With effort and determination the sim WILL cure that in a short time.

Good luck Zimm and welcome to the addiction! :thumbup:

[JJMAN]

I did do some searching and reading, but most info is setup stuff, not what model to get.

I'm a Navy helicopter pilot, but I hear that doesn't really help with RC flying. I've been wanting an RC helo for 10 years now. I'm thinking I should go with an electric so I can fly it in my yard and it won't annoy the neighbors.

This site is all for the Trex 450, which looks like a great helo. But how about for a first timer? Which 450? I have no RC related stuff for aircraft, so I'd need everything- from the radio to the battery charger. Should I get a used or new one?

The readiheli.com newbie guide recommends the Corona and NOT a 3D for the first heli. What do you guys think?

If the answer is the 450- what model? I'd like the ready built one. How about the all inclusive $1000 kit that comes with everything. Is that the way to go? Or should I go with a cheaper model and buy everything separate? I'm pretty clueless on this and would love some advice. Not sure what the starter budget is for a heli. I don't plan to do any crazy 3D stuff, just hovering around the yard mostly, at least at first.

I like to buy something quality once rather than junk 3 times. I do need something really crash resistant though.

Also, I have a mac, so rc simulator programs probably aren't going to work for me.

I fly locally with Zak & Robert Johns, come on out to Fentress Airfield most any Saturday or Sunday, weather permiting. If the Johns arent there, one of us other local heli flyers will be able to help you out. Just sign in at the building with the flag pole and drive on out to the runway, you will see us. I know its hard, but try to resist buying anything until you talk to one of us, it will save you time, money, and agony in the long run. There are Heli fliers of all skill levels there, we can help you out if you got the right attitude. Alot of us are current or ex-military.

As far as your experience flying full scale, it will help you and hurt you. I speak from experience, I'm a retired F-14 pilot and I had a really hard time learning to fly RC. I had to totally change my thought process, I started with planks then took on the Heli's about one year ago. Now I can crash with the best of them. :D

PM me if need more info.

[spork]

I certainly agree with most of what's been said. HF is definitely not a T-Rex only site, but can sometimes seem that way because of the tremendous popularity of that model. There's a good reason for that popularity, and that also spells lots of support and parts availability.

I agree with Kenneth that bigger is generally better, but there are trade-offs. If you have all the room and all the money in the world go big. If you really will be flying in your yard I'd strongly recommend against going bigger than the T-Rex 450.

I don't know what Wayne's asking for his 450, but if you go used you couldn't ask for a better source. You can be sure it's set up well and maintained well. Also, Wayne can definitely be trusted. Personally, I buy used whenever possible.

For lots of the basic on T-Rex setup and what you'll need check out the link on the bottom of this post. These days I'd have to say the Spektrum radios are the way to go if you're not getting a great deal on a PCM.

Incidentally, everyone learns at their own speed, and some people take training from one discipline to another better than others. Don't count on your full-scale flying helping you out, but don't be surprised if it does either. Take it a little slow and deliberately, and you'll have no problem.

Incidentally, the T-Rex 450 isn't exactly crash-proof, but it's about the cheapest heli to repair that you'll find.