600e Pro Tail Blow Outs

[OnTheSnap]

here for the video that Align provided. They have also post this video on their facebook.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqvhGiiC53c

This model in the video is clearly showing from how it set up and fly with the 2200 headspeed and 95mm tailblades. Looks there is no problem on its tail and still able to do hard 3Ds.

Accounting to what Align told, people who have the problem on the tail should check if the tail is at the neutral point and also the batteries you use.

Personally I believe a company like Align should have tested everything that including in the package and make sure everything work to each other. So I never put other brand's spare parts on my Trex. Who knows if they are working on my Trex or not.:confused:

This video was cross posted. My response is here: http://www.helifreak.com/showpost.php?p=3027953&postcount=476

I think the h/s in the video is likely >2350. But I hope I'm wrong and the 3GX has magic abilities to compensate for a 15% loss in tail thrust. Not likely. And they still sell a $590 FBL version with no 3gx.

[AlignCorp]

Hello Guys,

I've read a few of your concerns and or questions. I would like to point out that on page 31 of your Manual it clearly states that at 85% you will be at 2500 head spead. This helicopter was designed to be a performance machine.

So at 0 degrees no load 85% Throttle your at 2500 head speed.
At 0 degrees no load 100% Throttle your at 2720 head speed.
At a full 12+/- pitch you will be at 2470 head speed so your tail is not going to blow out in the designed rotor speed paramater given in the Manual.

Should you feel that you need to run a lessor head speed then you will have a less tail authority in extreme pitch and cyclic manuvers. But if cyclic and collective are managed then it is still a good performing helicopter. Case in the video we have uploaded showing a demo flight at 2200 head speed for you viewing.

If you have any further concern please (562) 598-4700.

Best Regards,
Jeff Fassbinder

[Cheetah62]

So at 0 degrees no load 85% Throttle your at 2500 head speed.
At 0 degrees no load 100% Throttle your at 2720 head speed.


:wow2:

[raptor50luvver]

Hi Jeff

Thanks for coming on here and addressing some of these issues we are having.

I am running the V Bar on mine which performs excellent on all my other Align Helicopters,ie 600N,700N,550E and 700E.

From my experience most 600 size helicopters run around 2000 to 2200rpm on the head,in fact many main blades have warnings to not run at the speeds you say the 600E Pro was designed to operate at.

I personally have no wish to run my 600E Pro at anything over 2200rpm and i am finding that in sideways loops and fast funnels the tail simply will not hold,every other Align model i run does these moves with ease with plenty of tail authority.

So a couple of questions.

Will Align consider producing an option on the gear ratio for the tail for users that want to run slower headpseeds and also with this get better duration?

If not can you confirm 100% that if i use 105mm tailblades to give me the extra holding power for my lower headspeed,that they wont contact the main blades in high negative pitch moves and that the geartrain can cope with the extra drag and load they will produce.?

Also i must ask,why design this model to run such a high headpseed,helicopters like for example the Logo 600 running on 12s gives stunning performance at much lower headpseeds,and as such is more efficient?


I am only wanting to enjoy flying this helicopter as much as i do all my other Align models.
Many thanks:thumbup:

Chris

[Nko15]

Manual it clearly states that at 85% you will be at 2500 head spead.

So at 0 degrees no load 85% Throttle your at 2500 head speed.
At 0 degrees no load 100% Throttle your at 2720 head speed.
At a full 12+/- pitch you will be at 2470 head speed so your tail is not going to blow out in the designed rotor speed paramater given in the Manual.



Got the be (*&(@% Kidding me?!?!?!? Your own blades Arent even rated at 2200+!!!!!:rotf:arggg:

And i'm NOT buying the the video. i think its fake. ''too fast for proper governing'' basicly means is that you guys put something different in there to get higher rpms..

[GB ian]

I think the statement from Align is clear that 2500rpm is needed.

So with that in mind I guess 3 minutes of flight time will be fine too.

Am I missing something?

Even with 3700 mah packs you might struggle to get 4 mins. No room for anything bigger, and counter productive to add more weight even if they did fit.

All looks very odd to me.

I must have missed something!

[GB ian]

What happened to the idea of 12S not killing batteries?

[trailblazer]

Jeff, thx for your information - but I still don´t understand your arguments for these high headspeeds.
If the new 600 was a pure FB Heli, high RPMs could be necessary for full "3D performance". But with modern FBL Units much lower headspeed will satisfy nearly every flying style.
It´s ok to be able to run these high headspeeds, but i don´t like the fact that i have to :roll:

[Dino Spadaccini]

Hello Gentleman as i stated in the title the new align 600 is a Pro version and has been design to run at higher head-speeds as stated in the manuel.

At 85% you are at 2500 giving the user allot of headroom for head-speed setup. if you decide to step down the head speed you are lowing the total performance of the heli IE the pitch and cyclic response plus tail authority. At lower head speeds you will need to mange your collective and cyclic input to maintain good control over your personal setup. As you can see Align Corp has shown you all via the video that the PRO 600 flies great and can 3d all day long it comes down to the user and personal setup.

I must point out that anyone flying a logo knows that you must pick your own pinion gear to get the final ratio and head speed were the enduser is happy,Align went one step further to hand you an out of the box PRO heli pushed to its limits by Alan to make sure that the PRO version was all that and more. Now i see allot of you just bashing the hell out of Align for bringing a heli that is the next level of PRO performance just not right.

Once again its a Pro heli and should be flown as its states in the manuel anything less just isnt giving the heli a fare chance

Regards
Dino Spadaccini

[GB ian]

I hope my comments have not been taken out of context, as a loyal Align customer I have yet to bash anything Align.

However I personally am finding that 2200-2300 rpm is more than adequate for me.

I do have a couple of questions;

1. Would there be any issues using non Align blades at these head speeds?

2. Are there special Align blades for this 2500 rpm setup or will all Align 600 sized blades work?

Maybe one day I'll bump up my own 12S setup to 2500 rpm!

[raptor50luvver]

So what you are saying is that this model is for high end pro users only who want maximum power,short flights and hot Lipos?

Congratulations you have just alienated 95% of your loyal customers.

Also not bashing Align,all their helis i own or have owned and the new 3GX are great,i just wish they made it clear when this model came out that is was for absolute top end fliers wanting top performance and nothing less.

[GB ian]

Forgot to say...did I read earlier that 2700 at 100% is OK too?

Thats got to be some machine.

[OnTheSnap]

Dino/Jeff,
Thanks very much for taking the time to reply to our concerns. Obviously we are all used to seeing Hard 3D flown on 600mm helicopters in the 2200-2250 range. As I stated before, Jamie Robertson, Kyle Dahl, Jesse Kavros and others fly 600mm machines in XFC, 3D masters etc at 2200-2250 and are obviously getting a pro level experience out of it.

So we're obviously a bit surprised by a machine intended to run at 2500 RPM. It's just something none of us are familiar with. At least those with lots of experience dealing with this class machine.

If I wanted to run at 2500, it's unfortunate then that you went with a fixed gear ratio. I for one will not run my helicopters without a governor (I use either the Castle or vbar governor on all my machines). To do so requires sufficient overhead in the gearing. With your fixed 8.615 ratio, the max gov'd headspeed I can run with Castle is in the 2300 RPM range. So now there is a strong desire for gearing options.

Thank you very much for the video at 2200RPM. Unfortunately I think there was a governor setup error, where the gear ratio was not entered correctly. Audio analysis of the audio shows the headspeed is at ~2400-2450 RPM. Can you reshoot the video with the governor setting corrected?

Anyway, we have an easy solution for those wanting to run "XFC championship" level headspeeds. We simply have to use 105mm tail blades and raise the tail using the stock 700e landing gear in the rear. Not a very expensive modification.

From a marketing perspective, I believe I'm your target end user. Being an intermediate 3D pilot (piro 3D, smack, etc), 2250 seems like all I need to turn heads and more. I love over powered setups, with high headspeeds, and running this RPM on the pro in governed mode satisfies me completely (running 105mm tail blades). So I think you should consider modifying your future kits with a 4.5 tail gear ratio so pilots like myself do not get suprised by the gear reduction and crash the model (yes, a massive blow out caused a very bad crash for me last week).

Thanks again for the reply! Great to see you guys here.

[raptor50luvver]

Theres something that keeps bugging me here,does the flybar version ship with 105 blades as per the specs or is it an error?

●Aluminum Tail Boom X1
●600D Carbon fiber blades X1
●600MX Brushless Motor(510KV) X1
●DS610 Digital servoX3
●DS650 Digital servo X1
●GP780 Head Lock Gyro X1
●Castle ICE HV 80 Brushless ESC X1
●6A External BEC w/ 5.1V Two-way Step-down voltage regulator X1
●105mm 3K Carbon Fiber Tail Blades X1 Set


Is it only some fbl models that are getting this problem?

Would be interesting to know if Align have tested the model with any other FBL system other than the 3GX.

[Dino Spadaccini]

GB Ian you can use any type of blade you like as you know this will change the performance.

I regards to the bashing
Align Corp puts allot of pride in what they make and wether it was meant as an attack or just someone pointing there dislike there are ways of doing this so it come across the right way just my thoughts.

As for Jamie and the XFC
where you there to hear the head speed, i know jeff was as we talked about that so stating something about head speed and a person competing please have the facts.

In regards to alienating the enduser, i must disagree with you. Our goal is to bring to market something new and fresh not a recycled heli. Align Corp is always pushing the limits on design and evolution of the product line.

just a few more of my thoughts

If running 105 tails and a head speed at 2200 is what you preferrer then thats ok for you. We will send your comments off to Align and see what they have to say about gearing and tail options its up to them to make that decision for the pro 600

[GB ian]

Dino,

Thanks for the update. As many have said being able to run with 2200 HS approx is desirable.

The final comment on your post above shows that Align can listen to the needs of its customer base.

Not much more needed IMO.

[raptor50luvver]

Dino

Thanks for the reply,agreed that last line says it all.

I run the 550E,600N,700N and E and all of these models are brilliant and very reliable,i am using the new 3GX unit on my 550 and its really really good indeed.

But the 600E Pros designed spec has caught me out a bit,as mentioned above if Align could do some tests with the 105s at 2200 approx and confirm the helicopter would be OK on it that would be very good.Also a 4.5 to 1 optional upgrade for the user to change the tail speed to suit the lower headspeed would also be welcome.

I am sure Align wants its end users to get the most from their helicopter,offering options for users to tailor it to their own particular tastes would be a great move.

Apart from the tail ratio as supplied i think its a fantastic model,well layed out,love the improved sliding Lipo tray and the new canopy design.:clap

[OnTheSnap]

GB Ian you can use any type of blade you like as you know this will change the performance.

I regards to the bashing
Align Corp puts allot of pride in what they make and wether it was meant as an attack or just someone pointing there dislike there are ways of doing this so it come across the right way just my thoughts.

As for Jamie and the XFC
where you there to hear the head speed, i know jeff was as we talked about that so stating something about head speed and a person competing please have the facts.

In regards to alienating the enduser, i must disagree with you. Our goal is to bring to market something new and fresh not a recycled heli. Align Corp is always pushing the limits on design and evolution of the product line.

just a few more of my thoughts

If running 105 tails and a head speed at 2200 is what you preferrer then thats ok for you. We will send your comments off to Align and see what they have to say about gearing and tail options its up to them to make that decision for the pro 600

Hi Dino,
In regards to the headspeed Jamie Robertson ran at XFC, I'm quoting Jamie himself who mentions his setup in this podcast: http://blip.tv/*****/collective-pitch-53-jamie-robertson-5263808

Locally I often fly with Jesse Kavros, and have been to IRCHA and many fun flies. All the top 600 pilots run in the 2150 -2250 range. Hence my expectation that the Pro would perform in the RPM range as well.

I appreciate Align thinking outside the box, but this sort of major performance change needs to be more clearly detailed in the specs, as it did cause me a crash, since I had expectations that the tail would perform at 2200 headspeed. I realize the manual mentions 2500, but I figured it must be misprint. Now I know Align wants me to fly at headspeeds well beyond anything seen before now. But I'll stick with 2250 5m flights with 105mm tail as it's already jaw dropping enough.

Overall I'm VERY happy with the 600 Pro now that I fully understand how to make it perform to my expectations. I'm also VERY happy to hear the model was torture tested at 2500-2700 RPM by your team pilots. That gives me great hope that it will be a very reliable model long term.

Thanks!

[GB ian]

I am only pissed about one thing...now with the arrival of the 600e Pro I might actually have to buy one..that will be four Trex 600 helis..I'll need to build a new shelf and I hate woodwork!

[raptor50luvver]

Ok i have asked Mikados V bar support team about this to see if its a V bar issue if indeed the 3GX can hold the tail OK.

Checking Mr Mels V bar videos the I gain in expert controls how hard the tail tries to hold its position before letting go and goes on to explain about the relationship between this and the tail ratio etc,maybe we need to raise this,maybe this is where the 3GX is coping better.


I will report back with Mikados answer but i have given them the full details.:peace

I think its fair to say Align have probably designed and tested around the 3GX system,maybe the problem is V bar related not helicopter airframe.

Mr Mels video,2 mins 50 onward is the interesting bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb3pd8X-gTk

[snemi00]

I haven't been able to find a new version manual for the 550 yet. Since they put the 600 gear set in the new kits, I'm wondering what headspeeds they're recommending there.
2800 with 550's and 3000 with 520's. Scary.

[OnTheSnap]

Ok i have asked Mikados V bar support team about this to see if its a V bar issue if indeed the 3GX can hold the tail OK.

Checking Mr Mels V bar videos the I gain in expert controls how hard the tail tries to hold its position before letting go and goes on to explain about the relationship between this and the tail ratio etc,maybe we need to raise this,maybe this is where the 3GX is coping better.


I will report back with Mikados answer but i have given them the full details.:peace

I think its fair to say Align have probably designed and tested around the 3GX system,maybe the problem is V bar related not helicopter airframe.

Mr Mels video,2 mins 50 onward is the interesting bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb3pd8X-gTk

Moot point now. We now understand all performance testing was done at extreme RPM levels. There is no 3GX magic that can make up for insufficient tail thrust at 2200RPM. Just slap on the 105's and be happy. My 600 Pro flys amazing now. Up to 15 flights with 105's and it just rocks.

[Commodore8888]

Just pulled the trigger on a 600E today. Made sure to pick up 105mm tails and the 700 landing gear to rake the tail up. Curious does the 700e tail fin also fit? I've heard 700e and 600e use the same tail box.

Besides the tail are there any other "unmentioneds" that I should know about?

[OnTheSnap]

Just pulled the trigger on a 600E today. Made sure to pick up 105mm tails and the 700 landing gear to rake the tail up. Curious does the 700e tail fin also fit? I've heard 700e and 600e use the same tail box.

Besides the tail are there any other "unmentioneds" that I should know about?

I think the 700e tail fin will fit. I have a spare I think and will try it tonight.

Also, I would highly recommend the KDE v2 tail upgrade or QUK tail. The KDE upgrade uses high grade screws to hold in the grips. The QUK tail is just bulletproof. I'm running the QUK tail on mine now. But run the KDE upgrade on my 700e and 550.

[MarkFlysHelis]

This is one of the better Heli-Freak threads I've read in awhile. Generally, it's just the same regurgitated info, Which is good I guess for the folks that are unable to find what they're looking for on the search feature.

I think it's awesome there are two Align reps leaving input here. Nice to see they're listening.
The statement that was made, condescendingly, about it being a PRO cracked me up. PRO, it's a PRO. I guess my old 500ESP *electric super PRO and old 600 nitro super PRO were intended for just that...Super Pros?? This 600 is for normal pros?

The new heli looks cool and there are a lot of nice upgrades. I'm not sure about running @ 2500 though. A 12s T-rex 600E is nothing new. I built one about a year and half ago and it was insane @ 2400HS. So much so I thought it was unsafe and changed the motor/gearing to calm it down.

Sounds like "On-The-Snap" solved the issue by using 105s on the tail. I'm glad I read about it before I put mine together, went into a 100' tail slide and exploded it.

When yours went in, how did the servos fair? the design with metal servo horns and the extended linkage rod looks like it would either bend easily or destroy the servo gears.