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KDE Direct
08-16-2011, 10:42 AM
I just maidened my motor today.

I must say the KDE 700XF runs much hotter than the Pyro ever did. The Pyro was barely warm to the touch where the KDE I couldn't keep my hands on it it was that warm. Sadly I didn't have my temperature reader on me to get a reading at the time. I will next time. Flight time is about the same at about 10 minutes of hovering around the yard.

However the CC 160HV seems to run a bit cooler than it did with the Pyro. I forgot to clear out the old CC logs in the ESC so I wont have any readings...

This is at 1800RPM using SK720 governor with 112T/12T gear/pinion.

Do your setups get that warm that you cant keep your hands on it? I'm guessing this is probably normal, KDE being a much more powerful motor where the Pyro is built on efficiency instead of raw power.

There is a common misnomer in the market that the landing temperature of a motor is a direct comparison to the efficiency of the motor, and it truly is false. The efficiency of a motor is driven by numerous design aspects, one of which is copper density in the motor. The more copper stuffed into the motor, the higher the efficiency and performance can be, but more heat will be generated and stored in the motor, Secondly, the efficiency of the airflow decreases as the air does not have clear channels to pass through, so again, more heat is stored in the copper.

On the other hand, you can design a very cool-running motor that has the "appearance" of efficiency, but is in true-effect just a very effective hairdryer. In this regard, you reduce the amount of copper, make clear channels for the airflow to pass, and effectively pass the heat outside the motor. The true performance and efficiency of the motor goes down in flight, but the motor will land cool and gives the feeling to the end consumer of efficiency.

In effect, don't judge the performance and efficiency of a motor based on it's landing temperature (there are exceptions to this rule). Of course, there are limits of materials and the motor design needs to keep all components below these critical temperatures, but these are much higher than motors will reach with today's technology if higher-end materials are used. Some of the best performance motors on the market are also some of the hottest running motors (and also much more expensive as the copper wiring is increased), it's just a matter of physics and motor designers have to balance all of these design features to find the optimal setup. :thumbup:

spikestabber
08-16-2011, 11:13 AM
Thanks for the reply. I didn't think it was any less efficient, otherwise my flight times would have suffered, but they have not. I am liking this motor so far.

It all makes sense now, stuff more copper into the motor (and this motor has a crapload of it), and the airflow cant flow through as freely. The Pyro has a lot of space between the windings for airflow.

nightflyr
08-16-2011, 05:43 PM
Patrick,
Here are the latest numbers after changing what you suggested on the 800

Motor temp is down to 146.8 degrees F :clappp

Batteries @ 104F :banana

Here's the log out of the CC160HV, just tooling around @ 1700 HS..

BTW ..no KDE stickers with the motor.......:wow2: That ain't right..:whip

http://helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=247190&stc=1&d=1313534478

Pat
08-17-2011, 09:27 AM
I found the same thing the KDE motor was much hotter than the Align MX700 510KV stock motor. 110 degrees after 6 mins of flight.

Chris_M
08-17-2011, 10:22 AM
I found the same thing the KDE motor was much hotter than the Align MX700 510KV stock motor. 110 degrees after 6 mins of flight.
Is 110 degrees hot for a motor to come down in ALaska? Whats the ambient temp there? I wish any one of my motors could come down at that low of a temp. My 510kv is at 160-170 degrees after 6 mins

Vom Feinsten
08-17-2011, 10:37 AM
Why are you talking so much about the heat:whip If the motor can handle it-i wouldn`t care.

The only reason is that it could melt the maingear if the heat is too heigh-but i think the KDE maingear should handle it.

@Patrik

Is the torque of your motor the same as an real 5035? Your has about 5 mm less outer diameter-I know this is not the only thing which tell you about torque.....

zaboaa
08-17-2011, 11:45 AM
Is 110 degrees hot for a motor to come down in ALaska? Whats the ambient temp there? I wish any one of my motors could come down at that low of a temp. My 510kv is at 160-170 degrees after 6 mins


I Was consistently Seeing 180 plus with my MX. Main reason I'm changing it...

KDE Direct
08-17-2011, 12:51 PM
Why are you talking so much about the heat:whip If the motor can handle it-i wouldn`t care.

The only reason is that it could melt the maingear if the heat is too heigh-but i think the KDE maingear should handle it.

@Patrik

Is the torque of your motor the same as an real 5035? Your has about 5 mm less outer diameter-I know this is not the only thing which tell you about torque.....

Hey Vorn,

The older material we used for gears had a significantly lower melting temperature than the new Nylatron Proprietary material, so the days of melting gears should be over. The newer material has a melting temperature of 495F, so if the gear is getting that hot, something is definitely wrong in your setup/gear mesh.

The torque of a motor does depend on a number of factors, which would take an entire book to explain and quite honestly, I don't understand all of it (reason I let other smart Engineers figure this out). There is a great book called "Brushless Permanent Magnet Motot Design" by Dr. Duane Hanselman that provides more mathematics and detail on motor design than you'll ever need, and once you read through it, you'll see how complex these motors truly are to make right. :thumbup:

In terms of stator design, it can be argued that the torque is proportional to rotor volume, all other factors being equal (winding resistance, magnetic materials, air gap, stator geometry, winding density, bearing resistance, eddy-current loses, the list goes on and on...) in which:

T = kD^2L, in which k is the motor constant containing all the factors listed above. Assuming k is equivalent between the two motors (near-impossible in real-life), then the torque generation is a factor of the stator volume in a perfect world. So, between the two motors:

700XF-495 is a 45mm x 41mm stator, so (45mm^2) * 41mm = 83,025 mm^3
5035 motor is a 50mm x 35mm stator, so (50mm^2) * 35mm = 87,500 mm^3

In essense, both motors are very close in torque generation, without having to go to a 50mm stator that does not fit most helicopter motor mounting areas (such as the TREX 700E design). Of course, if one motor has a "k" that is 2x larger than the other, all of this goes out the window. The real science is in the details and making it repeatable in manufacturing, that's the true testimony of a motor manufacturer. Make sense?

NRPY
08-17-2011, 09:18 PM
Is anyone with a CC ESC running the "outrunner" mode or are you running a fixed PWM value?

K2Freak
08-17-2011, 09:37 PM
Factory recommendation is Outrunner for this motor.

http://helifreak.com/showthread.php?p=3150593#post3150593

nightflyr
08-18-2011, 03:31 AM
Factory recommendation is Outrunner for this motor.

http://helifreak.com/showthread.php?p=3150593#post3150593

I believe that has changed..

Speaking to Patrick, he now recommends running @ 8 instead of outrunner mode.

Feel free to inquire.:thumbup:

K2Freak
08-18-2011, 04:51 AM
What is the rationale?

nightflyr
08-18-2011, 05:25 AM
What is the rationale?

kegerator (http://www.helifreak.com/member.php?u=8649)
Registered Users

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http://www.helifreak.com/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Thank You
Hey Richard,

I'm working with Castle Creations on this and it turns out, there is some variation between ESCs that makes different settings run better than others. My own HV160 loves Outrunner Mode and is butter smooth, but one of the Team Members has a HV160 that only runs good at 8Khz and Outrunner Mode is problematic.

At this point, I'm going to change to recommending 8Khz until the CC Engineers figure out how to further optimize the Outrunner Mode algorithm. Until then, 8Khz should work perfectly for you.

Thanks,
Patrick
Owner, KDE Direct

Vom Feinsten
08-18-2011, 10:17 AM
Hey Vorn,

The older material we used for gears had a significantly lower melting temperature than the new Nylatron Proprietary material, so the days of melting gears should be over. The newer material has a melting temperature of 495F, so if the gear is getting that hot, something is definitely wrong in your setup/gear mesh.

The torque of a motor does depend on a number of factors, which would take an entire book to explain and quite honestly, I don't understand all of it (reason I let other smart Engineers figure this out). There is a great book called "Brushless Permanent Magnet Motot Design" by Dr. Duane Hanselman that provides more mathematics and detail on motor design than you'll ever need, and once you read through it, you'll see how complex these motors truly are to make right. :thumbup:

In terms of stator design, it can be argued that the torque is proportional to rotor volume, all other factors being equal (winding resistance, magnetic materials, air gap, stator geometry, winding density, bearing resistance, eddy-current loses, the list goes on and on...) in which:

T = kD^2L, in which k is the motor constant containing all the factors listed above. Assuming k is equivalent between the two motors (near-impossible in real-life), then the torque generation is a factor of the stator volume in a perfect world. So, between the two motors:

700XF-495 is a 45mm x 41mm stator, so (45mm^2) * 41mm = 83,025 mm^3
5035 motor is a 50mm x 35mm stator, so (50mm^2) * 35mm = 87,500 mm^3

In essense, both motors are very close in torque generation, without having to go to a 50mm stator that does not fit most helicopter motor mounting areas (such as the TREX 700E design). Of course, if one motor has a "k" that is 2x larger than the other, all of this goes out the window. The real science is in the details and making it repeatable in manufacturing, that's the true testimony of a motor manufacturer. Make sense?


Hi Patrick,

Thank you for the information:clap

Regards from Denmark

Pat
08-19-2011, 09:38 AM
Most of the time in Alaska the Motor is just warm to the touch but 110 above the norm.
I have many large Ele setup one a P-51-150 ELE 12 4500 Watts and it is warm not hot at 135MPH top speed.

KDE Direct
08-19-2011, 03:55 PM
Hey Guys -

I know there is some confusion on which to run, Outrunner Mode or 8KHz with the 700XF-495 on CC controllers. At the moment, I am switching to recommending PWM Rate = 8KHz on the website and to customers, as it appears to run the best on a wide-range of controllers. Outrunner Mode is excellent on certain controllers, but has not been optimal on some setups in our latest testing. We are continually testing new hardware and firmware in collaboration with Castle Creations, so whenever we learn some new information, I'll do my best ot pass it on to customers and update our recommendations.

Just finished a flight outside the facility (92F outside) and at 8KHz, everything was running smooth on the ICE HV160. I've attached the Graph and Data Log file (.zip) for those interested and the Motor Temp. after the flight was 155F (ESC didn't even reach 100F). This is my own 3D flying style for 5.5 minutes at 2225 rpm, which is typical for most 3D pilots with this motor at that headspeed.

Helirob
08-20-2011, 11:14 PM
Got to see this live at IRCHA - this motor and the Tim Jones "Beast" were definitely the two most impressive setups at the show. I thought the 1917 was powerful, but the 700XF is a Monster and still gets good flight times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxe5mZaluwg

amb1
08-25-2011, 11:48 PM
From the vids I've seen of IRCHA and comments I've seen the Minicopter Diabolo was the most powerful, explosive machine around... I just ordered mine today, the guy at Helix Hobbies said they burned up 3 motors at IRCHA only the Xera 500 kv held up. I dont think they tried the 700-495 though and right now I'm trying to decide which of the three (KDE, Scorpion, Xera) to go with on the 700 size Diabolo... anyone used both or offer some reasons for one over the other? I believe the Xera-500 is 10g lighter than even the Scorpion...

Matt Nasca
08-26-2011, 08:31 AM
The Diablo was fast for sure. The KDE motor is just a massive powerhouse! I was there standing behind Mitch while he was flying and it was truly impressive! It's an abundance of steady power. :thumbup: And it looks cool sticking out the top of the canopy!

amb1
08-26-2011, 09:50 AM
Well since I live in SD, I'll just go to NeuMotors and see if they can break down how the similarly spec'd 1/2 lb heavier motor is the better choice. Guess the inrunner design is quieter pulls less juice but needs higher rpm for comparable torque to outrunner... I'm a plumber what can I say

Vom Feinsten
08-27-2011, 07:54 AM
I think it in that way-

Both motors the KDE and the new Xera can deliver up to 10 000 Watts peak. Nice but nothing to be proud off- since its only in a very little time frame this shows up.

The real thing is the continius power and the torque- The bigger the torque the less continius amp draw in the whole setup.

And without having anyone off these motors yet I think the KDE will have more torque but also bigger weight-but again we are only talking off 130 gr in weight which i think no one will ever notice in flight.

But i will wait, until we have more flight reports and then decide which of those motors (KDE or the new XERA) to get.

court46
08-27-2011, 11:29 AM
Are there people who run this motor with a kontronik jive 120hv?
I have a question about that, is it necessary run the KSA mode10 ?

court46
08-31-2011, 09:20 AM
i was testfly my 700 with the 700xf kde motor,
i have a new kontronik 120hv,
after the 4th flight my motor was cutting off, i fly 2 min from my voltz lipo's 65c
the lipo's are new, and my esc

can somebody help me, is it neseccary to run tha KSA mode 10?

KDE Direct
08-31-2011, 03:25 PM
Are there people who run this motor with a kontronik jive 120hv?
I have a question about that, is it necessary run the KSA mode10 ?

I have an inquiry about this to Kontronik, so I'll let you know what I hear back from their Engineers. In the mean-time, other customers have been running this combination with good success and I asked for feedback from them.

One customer who is runing this successfully mentioned this -

"Tell your customer to try it in mode 11 and connect an additional servo extension between the extra port on the esc and an open channel in the receiver.

I went with mode 11 from the get go. Have not used the additional extension but am about to."

Give this a try and see how it works out for you. I'll let you know what I hear back from the Kontronik Engineers as well. I personally have limited experience with the Kontronik series, but I am aware of these shutdowns occurring with motors across nearly all motor brands, so I beleive it does come down to specific modes for each type (?).

court46
09-01-2011, 07:31 AM
Oke Patrick,

Thanks for respons, i wait for an answer.
I was try this morning to fly my 700, and after the second flight, there was the issue, the motor cut off…
It was at the same flighttime from my lipo, about 2 min.

Thanks that you will help me.