What is the next recomended Heli after a Blade CX2 ?

[y2kgtp]

Just curious....I like the Eflite stuff, as everything you need is in the box, and the upgrades are well known, and obvious.

However, everyone seems to like the Align 450 & 600 birds. There just seems to be several versions of each as well, it seems. Is there a listing of which one is which in order?

Or is there another Electric Heli that is more recommended than this one? I just want to be able to fly in my driveway, and not be limited to the basement\house.

[BarracudaHockey]

The TRex 450 se is a solid performer. The 600 is equivelent to a 50 size nitro ship so that may be a bit much for yard flying (unless you live on a farm)

[y2kgtp]

The TRex 450 se is a solid performer. The 600 is equivelent to a 50 size nitro ship so that may be a bit much for yard flying (unless you live on a farm)

I was thinking 450 as well.....what is the differences between the models?

[y2kgtp]

Even tho the CP & CPP are considered not as nice as the 450's, I still keep looking at them as I would rather crash a 200$ heli than a 800$ heli any day..... :mrgreen:

[BarracudaHockey]

The 450 is smaller and cheaper. Smaller than a 30 size nitro.

A 50 size nitro uses 600mm blades hence the comparison.
A 30 size uses 535 to 550 mm blades.

A 450 uses.......yep you guessed it, 450mm blades (or there abouts)

[Bayou Talker]

A 450 uses.......yep you guessed it, 450mm


The TRex 450 uses 325-350 mm blades.

I would rather crash a 200$ heli than a 800$ heli any day


I would rather crash an $800 heli once rather then a $200 heli every time I flew it. Crash repairs on a TRex 450 are really rather cheap compared to the purchase price and since the heli flys so much more stable crashes are much less frequent. I know of a person who has over $800 invested in a Blade CP including crashes and upgrades and it still doesn't fly much better than a CPP. For the same money or less, he could have bought a Trex, had a great flying machine from the start and still be money ahead.

[BarracudaHockey]

Yea I realized that boo boo while I was eating lunch, I was hoping to fix it before someone quoted me!

:mrgreen:

[Chino Tom]

I would rather crash an $800 heli once rather then a $200 heli every time I flew it. Crash repairs on a TRex 450 are really rather cheap compared to the purchase price and since the heli flys so much more stable crashes are much less frequent. I know of a person who has over $800 invested in a Blade CP including crashes and upgrades and it still doesn't fly much better than a CPP. For the same money or less, he could have bought a Trex, had a great flying machine from the start and still be money ahead

I'm one of those guys. Don't actually crash my CPP much anymore but I'm barely past hovering it. Spent lots repairing it. Finally wised up and bought Trex. Just trying to figure out how to set it up.

[Jermo]

Chino stated what I was going to say..

many of the experienced pilots here all say bigger is better. Get the biggest you can afford. You crash less so it costs less to fly overall.

would you rather have a hobby flying heli's or fixing heli's? ;)
Jermo

[Bayou Talker]

I'm one of those guys. Don't actually crash my CPP much anymore but I'm barely past hovering it.


You are in for a lot more repairs when you start trying to learn 3D!

[y2kgtp]

I have been looking at this HDX 450 lately....it seems like a good deal for the money, and some nice videos on it in one of the forums here....

[y2kgtp]

Arrr.....this is adding up before my eyes :mrgreen:


HDX450
DX7
2-3 Lipo's
Lipo Charger

[djtedatlanta]

I have a cp pro and since my purchase I have visited my lhs almost daily. I said the same thing I would much rather crash a $200 heli than a 5 or $600 heli. I have now replaced every part AT LEAST 1 time and have spent on average $50 a day trying to fly. I still can not hover nor have I been able to successfully fly out a battery pack without repairs. I am a bit ashamed or embarrassed to even think about what my cpp has cost me at this point.
2 pair carbon blades $30
6 pair wood blades $17
2 crash kits $20
5 tail booms $3 (that one is pretty cheap)
1 frame $15
1 tail motor $10
3 in one $45
2 bell hill heads $35
2 main gear $10
this is only what I can recall in a short time. I cant fly one very well but I can fix it in my sleep

[Bayou Talker]

I have now replaced every part AT LEAST 1 time and have spent on average $50 a day trying to fly. I still can not hover nor have I been able to successfully fly out a battery pack without repairs


That is a very common thing among those that choose the "cheaper" route. You spent the same money and had less fun doing it. It is always better to do it right the first time.

[akeepsake]

I have now replaced every part AT LEAST 1 time and have spent on average $50 a day trying to fly. I still can not hover nor have I been able to successfully fly out a battery pack without repairs


That is a very common thing among those that choose the "cheaper" route. You spent the same money and had less fun doing it. It is always better to do it right the first time.Im a newbie, brought a cx2 flew inside and crashed into every piece of furniture in the house....went outside and took off and landed a couple of blocks away due to the 1kmh winds! not to mention blade clash when I was having a go, my lhs guy was almost a member of the family by now as well.... then it happened! I saw the t-rex on you-tube and that was that..... no looking back, bought a 450SE & DX7 and have just finished the build. If flying is as fun as building and set up I can't wait. Out of the box may be easy but learning how and why when you build is much more satisfying !!! I am the only trex owner in Tasmania (Australia) as far as I know but thanks to great forums like this and awesome build vidios from Finless I have been able to find asolution to whatever I needed during the build thanks Guys! Get a t-Rex you wont regret it!!!

[Raysun]

No one mentioned in on this thread but before you try to fly the Rex, please get a good sim if you don't already have one. Any of G3.5, FS-one, Clearview, etc. will put you miles ahead before you try the real bird....yes the Rex is nice to fly but its a very fast serious heli that can get away from you very quickly if your moves are not practiced. If you can't hover well in a good sim, you have no chance with the real deal.

Real CCPM helis have a steep learning curve, the CX2 is not on the same planet, and your first steps need to be the right ones.

Look up Radd's school of Rotary flight on the web..its disciplined and very well thought out, follow it and you have a good chance of early success.

Also if at all possible have an experienced heli guy look over and test fly your Rex before you try flying for the first time. Set up is key to success, and it takes time and some skill to set it up and trim it out properly...makes a huge difference especially if its your first flight. Soft control settings, lower rates, maybe a bit of expo, low head speed at first, etc. etc. will all help for early success.

Best of luck, patience is the key and use all the experienced help you can find.............. :D

Ray

CX2, CPPro, HBKing, HDX450/DX6, FS-One

[akeepsake]

No one mentioned in on this thread but before you try to fly the Rex, please get a good sim if you don't already have one. Any of G3.5, FS-one, Clearview, etc. will put you miles ahead before you try the real bird....yes the Rex is nice to fly but its a very fast serious heli that can get away from you very quickly if your moves are not practiced. If you can't hover well in a good sim, you have no chance with the real deal.

Real CCPM helis have a steep learning curve, the CX2 is not on the same planet, and your first steps need to be the right ones.

Look up Radd's school of Rotary flight on the web..its disciplined and very well thought out, follow it and you have a good chance of early success.

Also if at all possible have an experienced heli guy look over and test fly your Rex before you try flying for the first time. Set up is key to success, and it takes time and some skill to set it up and trim it out properly...makes a huge difference especially if its your first flight. Soft control settings, lower rates, maybe a bit of expo, low head speed at first, etc. etc. will all help for early success.

Best of luck, patience is the key and use all the experienced help you can find.............. :D

Ray

CX2, CPPro, HBKing, HDX450/DX6, FS-OneGood advice ray! crashing is cheap on a sim! While I am on that subject can anyone tell me if the preflight Trex edition sim ( which uses your own tx ) is any good ?
Would love to know as it looks ok on the websight www.preflightsim.com
cheers
Andrew

[kgfly]

You asked for opinions so here are a few of mine (remember, this is all my opinion, others may disagree):

IMO PreFlight is terrible. See my notes about sims below.

Bigger is better but for yard or local park flying a 450-class micro eHeli is the best choice around. The Align TRex450 is the market leader and nothing beats it for availability, parts support, ease of finding advice and responsiveness of the manufacturer to market feedback. There are various clones or look alikes but the only contender from another major manufacturer is the Thunder Tiger mini-Titan e325. It is a direct competitor to the Align TRex450 in terms of size and performance. It is not yet as well supported nor are there metal upgrades yet available. For now, nothing comes close to the T450 in terms of price+performance+availability+support.

Learning about heli construction/tuning/setup
Watch the Finless videos: http://helifreak.com/viewforum.php?f=95

At a minimum watch the TRex 450SE series, but really there is something to learn from almost all of them across all the different helis. Not everyone agrees 100% with Bob's advice on all things, but through his videos (and in person) he has helped hundreds (maybe thousands?) of folk get their helis built and running sweetly.

There are lots of other useful sites, for example:
http://trextuning.com/
http://littlerotors.com/

Learning to fly
* Use training gear. You can make your own out of CF rod and plastic golf practise balls (or ping pong balls or the polystyrene balls you can get in craft shops).

* Check out RADD's flight school, a lot of people have found it really helpful: http://www.dream-models.com/eco/flying-index.html

* Get a sim

What simulator?

An R/C simulator is a fantastic training aid. Most people find them very useful and lots of fun, although a few just find them tedious. IMO any of the sims mentioned below will pay for itself many times over, plus they will give you something to do when going outdoors isn't possible.

The better ones are quite demanding on your PC, especially the graphics card, so beware that investing in a sim might also mean upgrading your PC. You need something like (or better than) a P4/2Ghz + 512MB RAM + 128MB 3d graphics card (at a minimum something like a Radeon 9600XT, but a Radeon X1600 or NVidia 6800GT would be much better).

FMS is free and although the graphics are a bit dated and the physics not great, it is still a valuable tool ,especially when first learning. The helis are too easy to fly but that's OK at the start, you spend less time crashing and more time getting used to flying. You will need a cable for your Tx (which you don't have yet!) or you can get a Tx-style USB controller from Ebay for about $40 (just search for ESky USB simulator). Otherwise you can even use a USB gamepad to get started. I like the USB cable from milehighwings.com but there are cheaper ones around now too.

ClearView is fantastic value giving you a full blown R/C simulator with excellent graphics and physics and many features for only $30. Again, you can use it with your own Tx, an Esky USB Tx or a USB gamepad. CV has a demo you can download and fly for 20mins to see if you like it.

Phoenix, RealFlight/G3.5 and Reflex/XTR are the market leaders with FS One and Aerofly Pro Deluxe also competing. These are all in the $150 to $300 range. The first three are all excellent but my preference at the moment is Phoenix. I have not tried the last two.

What radio ?
No question, Spektrum DX7 with an AR6000 or AR6100 for your TRex450 (save the AR7000 that comes bundled with the Tx for your T600 or sell it to fund other bits). There is no other 6 or 7 channel radio worth buying. Some may have individual features that appeal, but the safety, reliability, performance, features and convenience of the DX7 puts it *way* ahead of everything else currently available. Many folk are even selling off their 9ch radios having tried the DX7.

While the DX7 is likely to be all you will need, the range of 2.4GHz spread spectrum solutions is set to expand during 2007. Some people like the 9ch Tx for their extra features. If that's the case then Spektrum is rumoured to be releasing a DX9/10 this summer. Futaba recently released their 6ch 2.4Ghz unit and have announced the 12FG but that is likely to cost 3 to 4 times as much as a DX7.

Meanwhile if you are in a hurry then a good looking option that will become available next month (due out by the Toledo show in mid-April) is a JR9303 together with a Tx module and Rx from XPS: http://www.xtremepowersystems.net/xtremelink.php

[Edit 22-Apr-07]JR have announced their native 2.4GHz 9303 ($639) and 12x ($?) using Spektrum technology (aka DX9, DX12), and XPS is now selling and shipping.


What heli ?
In general, bigger is more stable, easier to see, easier to learn and easier to fly. It is also more expensive to buy, equip, fly and repair. For eHelis the cost of batteries increases rapidly with size. Batteries for a T450 range from $35 to $120, batteries for a T600 range from $200 to $450!

It also depends where you want to fly. Bigger helis (say, over ~400mm main blades) are generally considered too dangerous for backyard/local park flying so you need a dedicated R/C flying field or a remote site of some sort.

IMO it's hard to go past an Align TRex450 for value for money, performance, availability and cost of parts and general suitability for local fun. I would love it if Align had a slightly larger bird in the 400mm range, but even their rumoured T500 will be larger than that (450-500mm).

So which TRex450 ?
While the S/SA is a good deal, if you can afford the SE it really is a much better choice. The all metal head and tail not only perform better (probably only matters if you get into 3D) but are vastly more robust. That means less time and money spent on repairs and more spent flying.

At the moment there are excellent runout deals on the recently outdated SE model (just replaced a couple of weeks ago by the official Align SEv2) and that would be my recommendation. IMO the new aspects of the V2 are of no benefit to a beginner and it will be more expensive to repair.

What electronics for my TRex SE ?
Motor/ESC: Cannot beat the Align 430L + 35G/X that usually come bundled with the SE kit in terms of performance/value for money. Other combos will give incrementally better performance but for many $$$$ and until/unless you are heavily into 3D you won't see any benefit. The new 430XL motor is also fine but is thirstier than the 430L with no real benefit for a learner.

Swash servos: 3 x Hitec HS-65MG

Gyro: Logictech 2100T (cheaper, smaller and lighter than the famous Futaba GY401 with reviewers to date reporting the same or better performance). If you are unsure about trying the new guy on the block then by far the most recommended gyro for the T450 is the GY401.

Tail servo: For learning an HS56 is fine but if you want top performance then a digital tail servo like a JR DS3400G, Futaba S9650, S3154 or HDS577 will be needed

Blades Align Pro 325 woodies or TechMP 325 woodies. Until/unless you get into 3D these blades will do everything you need at a low enough price that when you crash and destroy them it hardly hurts at all :lol: If you get the new SEv2 I recommend you keep the lovely CF blades for later and get yourself a few pairs of 325 woodies for learning.

What batteries ?
Typically 3S 11.1V ~2100mAh 20C. The market leaders are probably the FlightPower EVO range and the Thunder Power ProLight range. The EVOs seem to have the edge in outright performance.

IMO, as a learner it's better to consume the lifetime of cheaper batteries while pottering around hovering and learning to fly when you have no need for the extra performance of premium batteries. You can usually get the cheaper brands (eg DN or Hextronik) for as little as half the price of the market leaders. They won't perform as well and may not last as long, but for me it has worked out well. I have been using 3 hextronik batteries (3S 2200mAh 12C/16C) from unitedhobbies.com which together cost me barely more than one FlightPower EVO would have. Lots of folk have had good experiences with the Hextroniks and with their new 3S 2200 20C/30C packs selling at ~$36 you cannot go far wrong.

What charger/balancer ?
This is not a place to save money. Lipos can be very dangerous and are expensive. You want a reliable and safe charger that will optimise the lifetime of your batteries.

If you think you are unlikely to grow into larger helis than the TRex450 class (3S or 4S packs) or you want to go cautiously then I recommend either the FMA CellPro4s or the eStation BC6. These are all excellent products. They are integrated balance chargers so you don't need to get a separate balancer. The CellPro4S is LiIon/LiPo/LiFe only whereas the eStation chargers do the tradition chemisties (NiCd/NiMH/Pb) as well. The BC6 is nice as it includes an integrated ac/dc power supply whereas the others require an external DC supply.

On the other hand if you think you are likely to move up to bigger helis (TRex500, Lepton, QJ-EP8, Swift, Logo10, TRex600, eRaptor etc, etc) then you could buy a higher end charger now in anticipation. In this case take a look at the eStationBC8, eStation 902+PB6, Hyperion 1210-A+LBA10 or ThunderPower TP1010+210.

other stuff
Never try to save money on tools, it will cost you in the end.

* LiPo connectors, I am using deans
* ball link pliers (optional, not really needed for a T450 IMO)
* ball link sizer (not needed for a T450 and easy to make your own)
* Align main blade balancer
* High quality hex driver set (use the screwdriver handle sets)
* Rotor pitch gauge
* Loctite 243 ("blue" non-permanent threadlock)
* double-sided foam tape
* non petroleum-based silicone spray lube
* digital caliper (or just a good metric ruler with 1mm and 0.5mm markings)
* soldering iron (50W minimum)
* self-adhesive velcro (thin backing)
* good quality Phillips-head screw drivers size 00, 0 and 1.
* hobby knife and a pack of blades
* CA glue (thin and medium)

Spares
4 x pair 325 Pro wooden blades
2 x pkt flybars
1 x pair paddles (just get the cheap black plastic ones)
2 x pkt of main shafts
2 x pkt of main gears
2 x pkt of feathering/spindle shafts
1 x pkt main shaft bearings
1 x Align bump-resistant landing gear (or better, Gorilla gear-tall)
1 x pair tail blades (just get the cheap black "batman" ones)

==========
Whew! Well I hope that's some help. There are no dumb questions and there is a great deal to learn, which is part of what makes this hobby so addictive. Good luck with this next phase of your heli adventure.

[akeepsake]

Gee thanks Kenneth, You are right there is heaps to learn !! Thanks for the advice on the sim. Clearview sounds like the go . I ned to get a good charger as well so all your comments are very helpful I love this forum!!!
cheers
Andrew

[kgfly]

Here is a summary I put together recently that you might find useful. Personally I wouldn't touch any lipo charger that does not have an LCD display that tells you what it is doing, the voltage of the cells and the total charge put back into the battery.

Choosing batteries and chargers
===============================
Which chemistry ?

LiPo provides the highest energy density and best performance for size but is relatively expensive and somewhat fragile. Packs are easily damaged mechanically and there is a risk of fire if overloaded, overcharged or punctured. They also don't tolerate deep discharge. Hence they require a top quality charger, care in handling and a degree of knowledge to be safe.

Emoli (LiIon) from the V28 packs are 100g/cell at 3000mAh. They are heavy buggers but very robust and don't have the same fire risks as LiPo. They have a precipitous voltage drop at the end of the curve which can catch folks out without anough oomph to recover and land. I personally wouldn't choose them.

A123/M1 (LiFe) from the 36V DeWalt packs ar 70g/cell at 2300mAh. These are heavier than equivalent capacity LiPo but very robust and essentially zero fire risk. They are also lower voltage (3.3V nominal, 3.6V fully charged vs 3.7/4.2 for LiPo) but they tolerate 100% discharge and can be charged at up to 10A (4.3C) which makes up for the lower capacity by getting you back in the air much faster. Testing has shown that for power-system design purposes you should treat them as 16C/33C if you want to get ~500cycles. Unlike the emoli, which strangle around 40A, the A123 cells are capable of very high output, certainly 70A and up to 100A briefly. Basically heat is the enemy of cell life so running them at these very high discharge rates will shorten their life, but it's nice to know they can do it if needed. Under load the cell voltage drops quite a bit, running about 3.1V at 10A and 2.6V at 40A.

The lower cell voltage, particularly under load means you need more series cells than a lipo for the same rough pack voltage. The bigger voltage drop under load (at least compared to premium lipos) means maintaining uniform headspeed can be a bit harder and an ESC with a top class governer (eg Jazz or CC) can be useful.

The market rate for a DeWalt 36V tool pack with 10 A123 cells is about USD$100 plus shipping on eBay. Probably works out to around AUD$15/cell. That makes them very cheap when compared to lipos on a total energy basis. For example a 3S 3700 lipo costs about $185. A 6S 2300 A123 delivers about the same energy for approx $100. Of course it will weigh ~450g vs ~310g for the lipo and take up more space too. By accepting shorter flight times the balance can be adjusted for easier mechanical fit and even greater savings. Hence a 4S A123 will give about 2/3 the flight time for about one third the cost and the same weight. Now only the space may be an issue. At these prices you can have three A123 packs to give you more total flight duration with faster charge times and much lower risk.

Overall I really like the A123 cells for their robustness, inherent safety, deep discharge tolerance and fast recharge ability. However they are best suited to larger helis (Swift, TRex600, eRaptor, Logo10 etc) where their size, weight and voltage characteristics can be balanced out by using HV setups (10S to 15S). Having said that, I know people flying them quite happily as 4S or 5S in TRex450. When I get my EP8 I will be investigating the space/balance issues to see what's possible but my initial thinking based on some dimensions is that it will be hard to make it work.
The A123/M1 datasheet is here: http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/ANR26650M1specs.pdf
For now I would say stick with LiPo but get a charger that can do A123 (LiFe) as they could be a good fit down the track.

Which charger ?
A high quality charger is vital to safety as well as ensuring the best performance and maximum lifetime from your batteries so this is not an area to pinch pennies. There are some excellent choices around. A lot depends on your budget but more on the combination of your current needs and your expectations for the future. If larger models are in your future you might want a higher power charger now than would otherwise be needed if small park flyers are all you will ever fly.

Notes
1) Most chargers require an external DC power supply so budget ~$50 for a 150W one to run one or two low-power chargers or ~$100 for a 250W one to run high-power chargers at full load.

2) For now the only LiFe cells available are the A123/M1 cells from DeWalt 36V power-tool battery packs bought on eBay for ~$100 and which contain 10 cells rated as: 3.3V 2300mAh 16C/33C. They weigh 70g each, can be 100% discharged without harm, present near zero fire risk even if abused and can be charged at up to 10A=4.3C.

FMA CellPro4S (~$70)
- Requires DC power
- LiXx charger: LiXx
- 2S to 4S LiXx
- Integrated true balance charger (charges each cell separately)
- Normal and Fast LiPo cycles
- ~50W/3A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S <= 4000mAh, 4S <= 3000mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S <= 1.7C, 4S <= 1.3C

The best budget charger around for small 2S-4S packs. It won't charge your Tx or Rx packs but at $70 is great value for an intelligent and safe LiXx charger. Cheap enough you can get two and charge two packs at once to halve your waiting time. The 50W/3A output will charge lipo packs at 1C up to about 3000mAh capacity for 2S to 4S. If you don't need NiCd/NiMH support and are sure larger modelss with larger batteries are not in your future then this can be an excellent low-cost solution.

Hyperion EOS5i AC/DC + LBA10 6S balancer (~$115 + $45 = $160)
- Integrated ac/dc power supply
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiPo/?LiFe?
- 2S to 5S LiPo
- Needs external balancer
- Normal LiPo cycles
- ~50W/5A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S <= 4500mAh, 4S <= 3400mAh, 5S <= 2700mAh
Convenient integrated AC/DC power supply and a proven multi-chemistry charger. Needs an external balancer. Only goes to 5S. Rumours that there is a new firmware version that adds LiFe (A123) support.

eStation BC6 (~$170)
- Integrated ac/dc power supply
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiIon/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 6S LiXx
- Integrated 2S-6S balancer
- Normal, Fast and Storage LiPo cycles
- 50W/5A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S <= 4500mAh, 4S <= 3400mAh, 5S <= 2700mAh, 6S < 2300mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S <= 2.2C, 4S <= 1.6C
A great integrated package providing a one-box solution (ac/dc power supply, charger and balancer). The 50W/5A output means it's not well suited to high capacity 6S packs used in say a TRex600, but it will do a great job on most packs you would typically see in anything smaller. Although it initially looks expensive, since it is all 3-in-1 you don't have to buy a DC power supply or separate balancer so in fact it is very competitively priced.

I would definitely choose the BC6 over the EOS5i for its all-in-one convenience, 6S capability, LiFe support and better features (like the Fast and Storage charge modes).

eStation BC8 ($270)
- Requires DC power
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiIon/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 8S LiXx
- Integrated 2S-8S balancer
- Normal, Fast and Storage LiPo cycles
- 150W/7A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 7000mAh, 8S < 5200mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 3C, 8S <= 2.4C
Same features and benefits as the BC6 except DC-only input, 2S to 8S capability and the much higher output power makes this a real option for larger packs or fast charging A123 packs at up to 7A.

Hyperion 1210i-A + 2xLBA10 6S balancer (~$200 with 1xLBA10, ~$240 with 2xLBA10)
- Requires DC power
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 12S LiPo/LiFe
- Needs external balancer (1 for up to 6S, 2 for 7S-12S)
- Normal, Fast and Storage LiPo cycles
- 180W/10A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S/4S/5S <= 10000mAh, 6S <= 8300mAh, 8S <= 6250mAh, 10S <= 5000mAh, 12S <= 4100mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S/4S/5S <= 4.3C, 6S <= 4.0C, 8S <= 3.0C
A high-power charger that goes right up to 12S for a bargain price. Excellent features (similar to the eStation range) including LiFe support (must be the latest firmware, the -A model) although strangely no LiIon support, which is probably not an issue.. While not as convenient as the BC8 (since you need up to two external balancers), this is great value for money and a real contender for long term future proof performance.

Tough choice between the BC8 and the 1210i-A. I think both are excellent chargers with great features and flexibility and good UIs (at least as far as I can assess from their user guides). I really like the convenience of the BC8's integrated balancer (less boxes, cables and mess) but the 1210i is a fantastic deal and if you only need up to 6S then at ~$200 I might be tempted to put up with the mess.

eStation 902 + 2x PB6 6S balancers ($330 + 2x$65 = $460)
- Requires DC power
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiIon/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 12S LiXx
- Needs external balancer (1 for up to 6S, 2 for 7S-12S)
- Normal, Fast and Storage LiPo cycles
- 200W/9.9A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S/4S/5S <= 9900mAh, 6S <= 9200mAh, 8S <= 6900mAh, 10S <= 5500mAh, 12S <= 4600mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 4.3C, 8S <= 3.3C, 10S <= 2.6C, 12S <= 2.2C
A high-power charger that goes right up to 12S. Excellent features (mostly the same as BC8). While not as convenient as the BC8 (since you need up to two external balancers), this is a real contender for long term future proof performance.

ThunderPower 1010 + 210V balancer (~$375)
- Requires DC power
- LiXx charger: LiIon/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 10S LiXx
- Needs external balancer (1 for up to 10S)
- Normal LiPo cycles
- 220W/10A output
- 1C lipo charge: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 10000mAh, 8S <= 7600mAh, 10S <= 6000mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 4.3C, 8S <= 3.6C, 10S <= 2.9C
A high-power charger that goes up to 10S. Currently LiXx only (latest firmware added LiFe to the LiIon/LiPo it had before) but there are rumours of a future firmware upgrade that will add NiCd/NiMH/Pb. Unique in this group in allowing end-user firmware upgrades with the purchase of the optional interface cable. This charger is hugely popular in the US with those flying 500 class and bigger helis. The BC8, e902 and 1210i-A are all newer (and BC8 and 12010 are cheaper) and are eating into the TP1010's market share.

Personally I would choose the 1210i over the TP1010 as it is more flexible (12S vs 10S, multi-chemistry) and has valuable additional features (eg fast and storage modes) all for about $100 less.

[b]Recommendations[b]
Budget 2S-4S LiXx only: FMA CellPro4S
Budget multi-chemistry 3S-6S low power: eStation BC6
Most convenient mid-range: eStation BC8
Best value high-power/future proofing: Hyperion 1210i-A + 2xLBA10

--------------------
I hope that is some help.

[akeepsake]

Here is a summary I put together recently that you might find useful. Personally I wouldn't touch any lipo charger that does not have an LCD display that tells you what it is doing, the voltage of the cells and the total charge put back into the battery.

Choosing batteries and chargers
===============================
Which chemistry ?

LiPo provides the highest energy density and best performance for size but is relatively expensive and somewhat fragile. Packs are easily damaged mechanically and there is a risk of fire if overloaded, overcharged or punctured. They also don't tolerate deep discharge. Hence they require a top quality charger, care in handling and a degree of knowledge to be safe.

Emoli (LiIon) from the V28 packs are 100g/cell at 3000mAh. They are heavy buggers but very robust and don't have the same fire risks as LiPo. They have a precipitous voltage drop at the end of the curve which can catch folks out without anough oomph to recover and land. I personally wouldn't choose them.

A123/M1 (LiFe) from the 36V DeWalt packs ar 70g/cell at 2300mAh. These are heavier than equivalent capacity LiPo but very robust and essentially zero fire risk. They are also lower voltage (3.3V nominal, 3.6V fully charged vs 3.7/4.2 for LiPo) but they tolerate 100% discharge and can be charged at up to 10A (4.3C) which makes up for the lower capacity by getting you back in the air much faster. Testing has shown that for power-system design purposes you should treat them as 16C/33C if you want to get ~500cycles. Unlike the emoli, which strangle around 40A, the A123 cells are capable of very high output, certainly 70A and up to 100A briefly. Basically heat is the enemy of cell life so running them at these very high discharge rates will shorten their life, but it's nice to know they can do it if needed. Under load the cell voltage drops quite a bit, running about 3.1V at 10A and 2.6V at 40A.

The lower cell voltage, particularly under load means you need more series cells than a lipo for the same rough pack voltage. The bigger voltage drop under load (at least compared to premium lipos) means maintaining uniform headspeed can be a bit harder and an ESC with a top class governer (eg Jazz or CC) can be useful.

The market rate for a DeWalt 36V tool pack with 10 A123 cells is about USD$100 plus shipping on eBay. Probably works out to around AUD$15/cell. That makes them very cheap when compared to lipos on a total energy basis. For example a 3S 3700 lipo costs about $185. A 6S 2300 A123 delivers about the same energy for approx $100. Of course it will weigh ~450g vs ~310g for the lipo and take up more space too. By accepting shorter flight times the balance can be adjusted for easier mechanical fit and even greater savings. Hence a 4S A123 will give about 2/3 the flight time for about one third the cost and the same weight. Now only the space may be an issue. At these prices you can have three A123 packs to give you more total flight duration with faster charge times and much lower risk.

Overall I really like the A123 cells for their robustness, inherent safety, deep discharge tolerance and fast recharge ability. However they are best suited to larger helis (Swift, TRex600, eRaptor, Logo10 etc) where their size, weight and voltage characteristics can be balanced out by using HV setups (10S to 15S). Having said that, I know people flying them quite happily as 4S or 5S in TRex450. When I get my EP8 I will be investigating the space/balance issues to see what's possible but my initial thinking based on some dimensions is that it will be hard to make it work.
The A123/M1 datasheet is here: http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/ANR26650M1specs.pdf
For now I would say stick with LiPo but get a charger that can do A123 (LiFe) as they could be a good fit down the track.

Which charger ?
A high quality charger is vital to safety as well as ensuring the best performance and maximum lifetime from your batteries so this is not an area to pinch pennies. There are some excellent choices around. A lot depends on your budget but more on the combination of your current needs and your expectations for the future. If larger models are in your future you might want a higher power charger now than would otherwise be needed if small park flyers are all you will ever fly.

Notes
1) Most chargers require an external DC power supply so budget ~$50 for a 150W one to run one or two low-power chargers or ~$100 for a 250W one to run high-power chargers at full load.

2) For now the only LiFe cells available are the A123/M1 cells from DeWalt 36V power-tool battery packs bought on eBay for ~$100 and which contain 10 cells rated as: 3.3V 2300mAh 16C/33C. They weigh 70g each, can be 100% discharged without harm, present near zero fire risk even if abused and can be charged at up to 10A=4.3C.

FMA CellPro4S (~$70)
- Requires DC power
- LiXx charger: LiXx
- 2S to 4S LiXx
- Integrated true balance charger (charges each cell separately)
- Normal and Fast LiPo cycles
- ~50W/3A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S <= 3000mAh, 4S <= 3000mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S <= 1.3C, 4S <= 1.3C

The best budget charger around for small 2S-4S packs. It won't charge your Tx or Rx packs but at $70 is great value for an intelligent and safe LiXx charger. Cheap enough you can get two and charge two packs at once to halve your waiting time. The 50W/3A output will charge lipo packs at 1C up to about 3000mAh capacity for 2S to 4S. If you don't need NiCd/NiMH support and are sure larger modelss with larger batteries are not in your future then this can be an excellent low-cost solution.

Hyperion EOS5i AC/DC + LBA10 6S balancer (~$115 + $45 = $160)
- Integrated ac/dc power supply
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiPo/?LiFe?
- 2S to 5S LiPo
- Needs external balancer
- Normal LiPo cycles
- ~50W/5A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S <= 4500mAh, 4S <= 3400mAh, 5S <= 2700mAh
Convenient integrated AC/DC power supply and a proven multi-chemistry charger. Needs an external balancer. Only goes to 5S. Rumours that there is a new firmware version that adds LiFe (A123) support.

eStation BC6 (~$170)
- Integrated ac/dc power supply
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiIon/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 6S LiXx
- Integrated 2S-6S balancer
- Normal, Fast and Storage LiPo cycles
- 50W/5A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S <= 4500mAh, 4S <= 3400mAh, 5S <= 2700mAh, 6S < 2300mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S <= 2.2C, 4S <= 1.6C
A great integrated package providing a one-box solution (ac/dc power supply, charger and balancer). The 50W/5A output means it's not well suited to high capacity 6S packs used in say a TRex600, but it will do a great job on most packs you would typically see in anything smaller. Although it initially looks expensive, since it is all 3-in-1 you don't have to buy a DC power supply or separate balancer so in fact it is very competitively priced.

I would definitely choose the BC6 over the EOS5i for its all-in-one convenience, 6S capability, LiFe support and better features (like the Fast and Storage charge modes).

eStation BC8 ($270)
- Requires DC power
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiIon/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 8S LiXx
- Integrated 2S-8S balancer
- Normal, Fast and Storage LiPo cycles
- 150W/7A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 7000mAh, 8S < 5200mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 3C, 8S <= 2.4C
Same features and benefits as the BC6 except DC-only input, 2S to 8S capability and the much higher output power makes this a real option for larger packs or fast charging A123 packs at up to 7A.

Hyperion 1210i-A + 2xLBA10 6S balancer (~$200 with 1xLBA10, ~$240 with 2xLBA10)
- Requires DC power
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 12S LiPo/LiFe
- Needs external balancer (1 for up to 6S, 2 for 7S-12S)
- Normal, Fast and Storage LiPo cycles
- 180W/10A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S/4S/5S <= 10000mAh, 6S <= 8300mAh, 8S <= 6250mAh, 10S <= 5000mAh, 12S <= 4100mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S/4S/5S <= 4.3C, 6S <= 4.0C, 8S <= 3.0C
A high-power charger that goes right up to 12S for a bargain price. Excellent features (similar to the eStation range) including LiFe support (must be the latest firmware, the -A model) although strangely no LiIon support, which is probably not an issue.. While not as convenient as the BC8 (since you need up to two external balancers), this is great value for money and a real contender for long term future proof performance.

Tough choice between the BC8 and the 1210i-A. I think both are excellent chargers with great features and flexibility and good UIs (at least as far as I can assess from their user guides). I really like the convenience of the BC8's integrated balancer (less boxes, cables and mess) but the 1210i is a fantastic deal and if you only need up to 6S then at ~$200 I might be tempted to put up with the mess.

eStation 902 + 2x PB6 6S balancers ($330 + 2x$65 = $460)
- Requires DC power
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiIon/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 12S LiXx
- Needs external balancer (1 for up to 6S, 2 for 7S-12S)
- Normal, Fast and Storage LiPo cycles
- 200W/9.9A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S/4S/5S <= 9900mAh, 6S <= 9200mAh, 8S <= 6900mAh, 10S <= 5500mAh, 12S <= 4600mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 4.3C, 8S <= 3.3C, 10S <= 2.6C, 12S <= 2.2C
A high-power charger that goes right up to 12S. Excellent features (mostly the same as BC8). While not as convenient as the BC8 (since you need up to two external balancers), this is a real contender for long term future proof performance.

ThunderPower 1010 + 210V balancer (~$375)
- Requires DC power
- LiXx charger: LiIon/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 10S LiXx
- Needs external balancer (1 for up to 10S)
- Normal LiPo cycles
- 220W/10A output
- 1C lipo charge: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 10000mAh, 8S <= 7600mAh, 10S <= 6000mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 4.3C, 8S <= 3.6C, 10S <= 2.9C
A high-power charger that goes up to 10S. Currently LiXx only (latest firmware added LiFe to the LiIon/LiPo it had before) but there are rumours of a future firmware upgrade that will add NiCd/NiMH/Pb. Unique in this group in allowing end-user firmware upgrades with the purchase of the optional interface cable. This charger is hugely popular in the US with those flying 500 class and bigger helis. The BC8, e902 and 1210i-A are all newer (and BC8 and 12010 are cheaper) and are eating into the TP1010's market share.

Personally I would choose the 1210i over the TP1010 as it is more flexible (12S vs 10S, multi-chemistry) and has valuable additional features (eg fast and storage modes) all for about $100 less.

[b]Recommendations[b]
Budget 2S-4S LiXx only: FMA CellPro4S
Budget multi-chemistry 3S-6S low power: eStation BC6
Most convenient mid-range: eStation BC8
Best value high-power/future proofing: Hyperion 1210i-A + 2xLBA10

--------------------
I hope that is some help.Thanks again Kenneth ! Your a machine
much food for thought
Am downloading clearveiw now. so will see how it goes
cheers and thanks again
Andrew

[dicko_trex]

I am the only trex owner in Tasmania (Australia) as far as I know

I must be the second trex owner in tasmania :lol:
where in tas are u from andrew? im up north west coast.
I started with a night ranger 3d and after crashing that countless times i can now hover tail and nose in easily and side in is not to bad but i wanted to upgrade to something better and stop pouring my money into it.
so i got a trex 450se havent flown it yet though because i havent got a gyro or tail servo yet but hope fully should b in the air in a couple of weeks :D

[akeepsake]

Well I'm not alone on the island! Fantastic ! I had my first hover yesterday and have found this forum extremley helpful ! would love to keep in touch re your progress Im in Ulverstone so not far away Have you decided on what gyro/ servo for the tail you are going to use? what tx do you have ?Sounds like you have a bit of experience with the night ranger which is great but wait till you launch the Rex!!!
they are awesome I have training gear on it now but smashed my skids with a heavy landing I would suggest you get some gorilla gear skids they are indestructable but the stock ones are like glass! try this web sight I have some on order (just as well) http://www.rchover.com/inc/sdetail/30474 and check out finless vid in this forum on gorilla gear they are a must!
great to meet you ! :D

[kgfly]

One trick you can try is to drop the stock landing gear struts into a pot of recently boiled water and letting it cool to room temperature. This was recommended to me by some R/C car folk that do this kind of thing all the time. I have not tried it myself (I had bought some gorilla gear by then) but others have and reported a significant improvement in the stock gear. Still not as tough as the gorilla gear but much less brittle than stock.

[akeepsake]

Thanks Ken the only thing I am going to drop my landing gear into now is the bin as they are in 300 pieces!!
As per our last discussion re exp curves and flybar weight positions I tried the weights about halfway out rather than all the way out asthey were originally
This made a dramatic improvement in control as the bird felt far more easy to correct quickly It had no delay in response but not too twitchy The only thing that was twitchy was me LOL!
The training gear really helped and when I am back in business I will need to look at my setup as the heli wants to drift t the left ( will check all linkage lengths to make sure tthey are the same where they need to be)
cheers :)