AMA waiver: 60 or greater requirement?

[lperagallo]

The pilot must instruct the supervising individual on how to perform an emergency shutdown of the turbine in flight from the pilot’s transmitter and the supervising individual must be empowered by the pilot to shut the turbine down in flight in the event of a loss of control emergency.


Chris,

I too, believe that this is to demonstrate on the ground an emergency shut down so IF there were a loss of control the supervisor could kill the turbine. I sure can't see how a supervising individual would be able to pull off such a move without ripping the radio out of my hands. Of course all you need to do is shut of the TX:wow2:

Lou

[Peter Wales]

I think you guys are making this harder than it actually is. The waiver application tells you what you need to do in 510-F. Other than talking your way through the manual you don't need to have ever seen a turbine, never mind owned one. Just do your test with a 60 or 90 size heli.

510-A outlines various ways in which a non turbine waiver holder can fly his heli, always under buddy box supervision, and if he wants to take his test with a turbine, the examiner checks him out and tutors him on things not quite right, until the examiner is happy the applicant can take and pass the test without the buddy box.

Most of what is in 510-A is aimed at plank pilots and has been broadly stretched to cover helis, but in flight turbine shutdown? I dont think so and its definitely not in the waiver application.

[cbergen]

As usual, Peter is right. I missed the all important "or" in the paragraph discussing the qualification flight.

The qualification flight shall be completed by one of the following two methods:


1) Fixed wing: Using a model capable of sustained speeds of 100mph or higher;
Rotary wing: Using a helicopter with 0.60 cubic inch displacement or larger, capable of
50 mph forward flight speed;
Control line: Using a model requiring a pull test of 55 pounds or more, as described in
the current CL Scale Competition Rules.

!!!!OR!!!!


2) For fixed wing and rotary wing only: The qualification flight will be performed with a
turbine powered model. The applicant must first have flown the turbine powered model on a
buddy box with an experienced turbine pilot in control of the master transmitter. The
experienced turbine pilot will assist the applicant with as many flights as necessary until he is
satisfied that the applicant is prepared for the qualification flight after which the experienced
turbine pilot will declare the applicant qualified to perform the qualification flight flying solo
without buddy box assistance.

I knew there had been changes made and was trying to figure out WHY you had to do the qualification with a Turbine....pulling my head out now.....:)

[flyinfool]

For the sign off you do not need both sign offs to be rotary turbine waiver holders. The CD must be a Designated Helicopter CD, but the other is not required to have rotary experience, only turbine experiance. You can infer that if you want to, but the rules don't require it as written. So the turbine waiver holder could be a fixed wing waiver holder.

I am trying to interpret anything or figure out what I think they might have meant, all I can do is go by what is actually written.

My intent is to have a turbine CD and a fixed wing turbine holder do my signoff and that will make me the first rotary turbine holder in the state.


Current turbine waiver holder:
I, ______________________________, am currently an experienced turbine-powered model aircraft pilot and have a turbine waiver/affidavit on file with the Academy of Model Aeronautics.
I hereby attest that _____________________________________ has successfully performed the turbine qualification flight outlined on page two of this document.
_________________________________ ________________________
Signature . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . AMA Number

[ag4ever]

I looked into it a bit more and got frustrated. I never figured out the "chicken and the egg" dilemma. How can I demonstrate proficiency in starting and flying a turbine heli without out being able to legally (AMA coverage) fly a turbine heli? Do you want me to buy and build it but never throw the switch until the day of the test? I'm still looking for this answer if anyone knows it. If the answer is "someone else has to flight test my heli" until I'm qualified, then that's a non-starter. In 20 years in the hobby, no one has ever conducted a maiden on anything that I've built but me. Sorry, that's just me.

This depends on the circumstances on where you want to fly. I have access to a semi-private rural airport, and could fly a turbine there without a waiver. I know my AMA would not be in effect, but the risks invloved would be very low. I also have access to farm land I can fly on with the same results. Low risk, but no AMA protection.

So in the end, you can fly without a waiver, but you are flying outside AMA.

[DDragon]

I've been following this thread with interest and while I'm not an expert, I've noticed that, from what I've read so far, (and if I'm wrong please correct me!) there is no requirement for a "Turbine Waiver" in Canada.

In order to fly at my club you need to be a member of MAAC which I believe is the equivalent of the AMA (they have a governing body and provide insurance at sanctioned events)....

Searching my clubs Safety Code and the MAAC documents, I see that the only mention of what is required to fly a turbine heli at a MAAC sanctioned field is the following:

-------------------------------------
When operating any Turbine Engine model aircraft TRHC members will adhere to the following:

NOTE: These rules are designed to ensure the safety of turbine operators as well as spectators and the general public. The rules are not intended to restrict or impede engine or airframe development and as such shall be reviewed on an annual basis to accommodate the changing technological advances in turbine engine manufacture and operations.
1.I will follow the Code of Practice for the Safe Operation of Model Gas Turbines, published by the Gas Turbine Builders Association, sections 1 through 8.
2.I will have a CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) fire extinguisher present and manned for all turbine operations.
3.I will not use flexible plastic bags (i.e. intravenous bag) as fuel tanks in turbine engine model aircraft.
4.I will fuel and start my turbine engine model aircraft following safety procedures established by the manufacturer.
5.I will fuel propane powered turbine engine model aircraft in a remote area away from spectators, engines, start areas and ignition sources.
6.I will ensure the tailpipe (exhaust) is not pointed at any person, combustible or fragile object.
7.I will ensure all non-essential personnel remain 10 metres from the turbine engine model aircraft during the starting process.
8.I will have an electrical (i.e. solenoid) or mechanical fuel shutoff valve in the fuel delivery system capable of restricting fuel flow in the event of an emergency.
9.I will not attempt any speed record utilizing a turbine engine model aircraft in Canada until both the Jet and Safety Committee has been consulted.
10.I will have a spotter/assistant when operating a turbine engine model aircraft.
11.I will not fly turbine engine model aircraft with the turbine mounted on the outside of the airframe (i.e. below the fuselage), unless the turbine is mounted in such a way that during normal flight operations (including a retract failure) the hot section of the turbine body does not come in contact with the ground.
--------------------------------

I see no mention of "signing off" or anything that resembles this. Am I wrong... I'm in Canada as you can see and looking towards building a Turbine Heli. So I'm doing all my research first.

As mentioned earlier, anyone can buy a turbine, and fly is where ever there is no risk of damage or death without an AMA or MAAC sanction. But it's alway nice to fly in a designated area for Heli (such as a club).

Any comments? Thanks.

[estevens]

For the sign off you do not need both sign offs to be rotary turbine waiver holders. The CD must be a Designated Helicopter CD, but the other is not required to have rotary experience, only turbine experiance. You can infer that if you want to, but the rules don't require it as written. So the turbine waiver holder could be a fixed wing waiver holder.

I am trying to interpret anything or figure out what I think they might have meant, all I can do is go by what is actually written.

My intent is to have a turbine CD and a fixed wing turbine holder do my signoff and that will make me the first rotary turbine holder in the state.

I was approached recently by a club member who was looking to get turbine rated. Having held a CD license for 10 years, I was surprised to see "Designated Helicopter CD". I have run nothing but helicopter events and there is no "Designated Helicopter CD" rating by the AMA (unless they are changing something). As I am not turbine rated, I had to send him on his way, but it did raise a question.

[rkeith2]

I am currently a CD that can sign off on a waiver. The CD rules now state that to sign off on Turbine applicants you as a CD need to be a waiver holder.

[WayneBrown]

I am currently a CD that can sign off on a waiver. The CD rules now state that to sign off on Turbine applicants you as a CD need to be a waiver holder.
That raises a question for me, as I am also a CD.
I've flown my 90's in the presence of a number of CD's in the past, and although I don't currently own one, would the past performance qualify for sign-off?
I haven't seen a time limit in any AMA docs, but I could easily have overlooked it.

[rkeith2]

If I "know" first hand that someone can and has handled a 90 class nitro then yes.

I do want to help them appreciate the weight difference and safety measures as well as offering to help with settings etc unless they are seasoned already and just want to be "legal"

[WayneBrown]

Where's Chris when you 'need' a loaner Turbine??
Maybe Greg is closer, but his hands are TOO soft.

[lperagallo]

Wayne,

You are in Indy right? I have a Bergen Turbine. It's down for repairs right now, but it will be back in the air in a 10 days.

Do you want to get together and fly some afternoon or on the weekend. If so PM me and we can set a time.

Did you find a place to stay now that the White River is a bit over its' banks?

Lou

[Gmoney]

If I "know" first hand that someone can and has handled a 90 class nitro then yes.

I do want to help them appreciate the weight difference and safety measures as well as offering to help with settings etc unless they are seasoned already and just want to be "legal"


Ron, I have myself and two others that would like to get checked out. How or what is the best procedure to get with you to do this..

Thanks
Gmoney

[WayneBrown]

Yup, Out 69 @14 near Lapel.
I brought a couple machines, and if I stay here long term, we have a bigger place to fly, just a little further out. I was hoping to find some drill guides to rework some linkages on one of them, and have struck out locally.
Look forward to meeting you. JC has my number if you talk to him.

Wayne,

You are in Indy right? I have a Bergen Turbine. It's down for repairs right now, but it will be back in the air in a 10 days.

Do you want to get together and fly some afternoon or on the weekend. If so PM me and we can set a time.

Did you find a place to stay now that the White River is a bit over its' banks?

Lou

[rkeith2]

gmoney -

I am at the flying field most weekends during the morning flying, talking, helping or ???


http://www.circlecityflyers.com

[rkeith2]

Wayne -

Please have someone capture the expressions on Lou's face for me ...


He will say that it will resemble this ...

[rkeith2]

But I think it will be more like this

[lperagallo]

Ron,

That's what I look like when the turbine gets the shakes:wow2:

Lou

[rkeith2]

Quit putting Starbucks in the fuel :-)

[cbergen]

See, I KNEW there was a reason!!! :)

[Havoc]

To be an AMA Turbine CD you just need to be a CD and have had your turbine waiver for a year. Then fill out the paperwork. I looked into that when I heard IRCHA was going to take it over. I didn't want to be caught in the transition period. Although AMA said even after they started any takeover the old process would be valid for some time so pilots wouldn't need to suffer with any bureaucratic headaches while Ircha figures out what they are doing. I never think to look at the IRCHA web site and they don't send out newsletters in the mail so I admit I lose track of what they are up to often. But this was true as of last year.

[rkeith2]

I think I was trying to say that -

Did I miss the waiver for 1 year part?

[WayneBrown]

I gotta get signed off.
The way glow fuel prices are, it may be cheaper to fly a turbine. :bad

[Havoc]

Hey Wayne, I should have my Turbine CD in about a month so that will give you an excuse to stop by.

Did I miss the waiver for 1 year part?
I probably just missed it. But if IRCHA does what I heard last year, heli pilots can only be signed off by rotory wing turbine CDs. That makes some sense until you try to find one. Someone mentioned heli CD and a turbine CD but there is no "heli CD" unless IRCHA is adding that as well? This all seemed to stem from complaints that the fixed wing CDs were either too hard or too easy on those wanting a rotor wing waiver. But they give you a list of maneuvers to check off that any fixed wing pilot can understand. As far as being too hard, there are enough that if you don't like one then you stand a good chance of finding another. I'm surprised they would be too easy because it reflects back on them. Or is it just IRCHA trying to find another point of relevance?

[WayneBrown]

Hey Wayne, I should have my Turbine CD in about a month so that will give you an excuse to stop by.


I should be blasting (driving) through Thursday evening on my way home to a doctor appt.
ATM everything I have is grounded but a T600E due to battery issues...:(