AMA waiver: 60 or greater requirement?

[cbdane]

Please pardon the extreme noob question. Although I've been flying fixed wing since '88 (gee, approaching 20 years...), heli's are pretty new for me. I've taken to it like a fish to water, though, and I am thoroughly enjoying these birds.

I am presently flying a Trex 600 electric (1350mm span) but I am interested in moving toward a turbine-powered craft (prob. Bergen Intrepid w/ Wren). I read through the AMA suggested maneuver list and that would be no problem for me at this point. However, my question is, what heli do I need to get signed off with a waiver? At 3-4hp peak, the 600 probably rivals performance of most 60 sized helicopters but it is generally classified as a 50, so I assume it is out. Also, the preflight is very different than a wet fueled aircraft.

I'm considering a Bergen EB 800mm blade gasser to prepare for the waiver. It seems like, with the appropriate choice of heli, some overlap between spares and other investment might be possible? Does that seem like a reasonable idea? Any suggestions for a better approach?

Thanks so much in advance!! :)

[Greg Alderman]

Well...as one of the 4 or 5 guys on the AMA list to sign off Rotary Wing waivers...I will have to say...a 60 or larger unfortunately doesn't include the Trex 600 which pretty much seen as a .50 size. Although it probably meets the speed requirements and is more powerful than a .60...the AMA still requires at least a .60 size...sorry...

You would like the Bergen gasser and love the turbine...and yes there is a lot of common parts between all the Bergen’s.

I am trying to think if there is someone close to you that is on the sign off list...you can go to the AMA website and download the list to find out...I know Gary Travis is up in SLC and Dr. Tim is in the desert somewhere...they might be the closest to you...

[heliman53]

Know anyone with a 60 or 90 you could borrow? I took my waiver with a borrowed Xcell gasser, but then if you do get an EB you will not regret having an extra machine! Craig B

[Skiddz]

I've been eyeballing a turbine heli as well. Any other docs other than 510-A and 510-F that detail what's required to get a waiver? The maneuvers in 510-F are no problem... So other than that, 50+ flights on a .60 or larger displacement heli capable of flights in excess of 50MPH is it?

How does one prove he/she has performed these 50 flights?

The "check ride" requires a buddy box flight on the turbine heli prior to being approved for solo flight to perform the maneuvers in 510-F??

[cbdane]

I looked into it a bit more and got frustrated. I never figured out the "chicken and the egg" dilemma. How can I demonstrate proficiency in starting and flying a turbine heli without out being able to legally (AMA coverage) fly a turbine heli? Do you want me to buy and build it but never throw the switch until the day of the test? I'm still looking for this answer if anyone knows it. If the answer is "someone else has to flight test my heli" until I'm qualified, then that's a non-starter. In 20 years in the hobby, no one has ever conducted a maiden on anything that I've built but me. Sorry, that's just me.

As far as people certified to do the check flight, they seem pretty far and few between. A recommendation that I was given on another thread was to travel to a heli flying event where CD's would be present.

It's a pretty exclusive club and if the rules and procedures were more clear, it wouldn't stay exclusive. That's just the way the members like it. Just my take on it (could be wrong).

[cbdane]

Well...as one of the 4 or 5 guys on the AMA list to sign off Rotary Wing waivers...

Belated response: "4 or 5 guys?" You've got to be kidding. :thumbdown:

[Skiddz]

I looked into it a bit more and got frustrated. I never figured out the "chicken and the egg" dilemma. How can I demonstrate proficiency in starting and flying a turbine heli without out being able to legally (AMA coverage) fly a turbine heli? Do you want me to buy and build it but never throw the switch until the day of the test? I'm still looking for this answer if anyone knows it. If the answer is "someone else has to flight test my heli" until I'm qualified, then that's a non-starter. In 20 years in the hobby, no one has ever conducted a maiden on anything that I've built but me. Sorry, that's just me.

Pretty much how I feel now after poking around for a couple hours. I don't own a 60, but have two 600Es that I have yet to wad up doing aerobatics on. I can hover in all upright orientations (Still have a little trouble with left side in from time to time) and am working on inverted hovers so I'm pretty confident I can pass the practical portion. Like cbdane, I have YET to fly a heli *I* haven't set up by myself from scratch and I'm confident I could build, start and fly a turbine heli the same way I've done before - with help from vendors, manufacturers and folks here on the freak.

As far as people certified to do the check flight, they seem pretty far and few between. A recommendation that I was given on another thread was to travel to a heli flying event where CD's would be present.

It's a pretty exclusive club and if the rules and procedures were more clear, it wouldn't stay exclusive. That's just the way the members like it. Just my take on it (could be wrong).

My feelings as well. I find it hard to believe there are only 4 or 5 folks in the entire AMA membership that can do turbine rotorcraft signoffs...

[edit]OK, further confusion..

510-K lists a bunch of people who evidently can sign off on fixed AND rotary wing applications according to the paragraph just prior to the list.

[Trooper Sam]

If you're gonna get your waiver, Skiddz, you can use my Vibe. :)

[cbergen]

There is a move underway, and I apologize for my lack of complete info, to put the Rotorywing Turbine Waiver into the hands of IRCHA.

This may be more than underway, but not being involved in the AMA meetings, I'm only going on 6 month old info.

My belief is that once this happens, more signoff CD's will be made and available.

On the "Chicken or egg" problem, you certainly can purchase, build, and test fly your own turbine without the waiver. Just NOT at an AMA field. And of course NOT covered by AMA insurance, understanding that AMA insurance is secondary to your homeowners (another hot topic...) anyway.

We as a manufacturer always invite you to come here to our shop for some "training" on your bird, concentrating mostly on the safety aspects if you already have the flying skills to pass the flight test. We also travel around to funflies, with my turbine in tow, and again if you posses the flying skills, then you are welcome to fly mine with the buddy box for your test, usually Greg and I will be at the same funflies.

I disagree about the "exclusive club" mentality, the truth is the Turbine market is VERY small, a truly niche market within a niche market. These rules are in place, IMHO, for one reason alone. Safety.

There are many things that can go wrong with a helicopter, the only real control that AMA can have (however small) to prevent a catastophic accident concerning a Turbine and the real possibilty of fire, is to ensure the pilot has at least some idea on the how's and why's of these engines. AMA's rules are only difficult due to the small numbers of signoff CD's (and we hope to change that soon), so an "exclusive club" or "elitest" as it has been called in the past, is not the case. Only the cost of ownership (or crashing) prevents more people from owning them.

HTH,

[WayneBrown]

I would like to try a turbine, and I am currently a CD.
Isn't there a clause that x number of CD's can still sign off on the waiver? Guess I need to brush up on my reading.
For grins, do you currently have to own a turbine to be granted the waiver?

[cbergen]

Ther are some recent changes to the rules, best to check up on them.

No, you do NOT have to currently own a turbine to get a waiver. You don't need a car to get a drivers license....:)

[cbdane]

Thanks Chris. That's helpful. So, all I need is a 60-sized machine with documentation to show 50+ flights to take the "test?"

If it were more spelled out, I'd have written the check for the turbine heli a while back.

Is there anyone at Bergen that can do the sign-off if someone demonstrated their flight proficiency at your field (let's say, while picking up their new turbine heli...:))?

[lperagallo]

When Chris talks about a small market, there are only 3 three Heli waivers in Indiana. I fly the Bergen Turbine and got checked out by Greg Alderman and Don Perry from Oklahoma City. I fly a Bergen Gasser and got checked out using it. I also flew the Turbine while flying the gasser and found the turbine a little easier to fly.

It is important to know about the safety aspects. I had a bad auto last year at IRCHA with my turbine. It rolled over after I hit. As I was walking out to pick it up a guy yelled out to me and my spotter that the Turbine was on fire. We couldn't see it because of the angle and that AMA required CO2 fire extinguisher came in handy. A fuel line had hit the exhaust and melted the line. Raw Kero was then dumping on the exhaust trying to make my Turbine a toasty critter. It ended up only being small damage, but had I not had the fire extinguisher it would had been a pile of trash.

Lou

[cbergen]

Getting on the "list" is on my to do list this year, depends on if and when IRCHA gets the nod to take it over for rotory wing waivers.

It would make it easier, but I can see a "conflict"...If I did NOT think you had the skills, and would not sign you off, would you STILL buy the heli?

[Skiddz]

That's a good point, but I would assume you already had half the money for the heli Chris. :)

Looking at the list of Waiver holders (Dated yesterday) there's really not that many out there and even fewer of those are CDs.

So, getting back to the 50 flights bit. Do you need to keep a log or what? Does someone else need to sign it?? I don't belong to an organized or "sanctioned" club, but do have AMA membership (as do all the guys I fly with) and we follow the safety code at our little field. Would I need one of those guys to verify the flights???

Does full scale turbine heli time count towards any of it? :)

[cbergen]

All turbine waiver applicants should have accomplished at least 50 flights on a high performance model.

It says should, there is no longer a signoff requirement that I could find....I think that your "Examiner" will be able to tell during the qualification flight if you are capable of handling the big bird....

The VERY interesting change is, The pilot must instruct the supervising individual on how to perform an emergency shutdown of the turbine in flight from the pilot’s transmitter and the supervising individual must be empowered by the pilot to shut the turbine down in flight in the event of a loss of control emergency.

I believe this means to actually perform an auto!! Now we do auto's all the time with the Intrepid Turbines, but I haven't seen many others do it. You MUST be very confident in your auto skills and setup to do a real engine shutdown auto with an $8,000 bird....and I would have to be VERY confident in YOUR skills to do it with MY helicopter!! :)

[WayneBrown]

You MUST be very confident in your auto skills and setup to do a real engine shutdown auto with an $8,000 bird....and I would have to be VERY confident in YOUR skills to do it with MY helicopter!! :)

I'll auto your bird, or Greg's.. then once I get my own I'd let you return the favor.. ;)

[Skiddz]

I believe this means to actually perform an auto!! Now we do auto's all the time with the Intrepid Turbines, but I haven't seen many others do it. You MUST be very confident in your auto skills and setup to do a real engine shutdown auto with an $8,000 bird....and I would have to be VERY confident in YOUR skills to do it with MY helicopter!! :)

It looks like the pilot must demonstrate that he KNOWS how to do an inflight shutdown, not to actually DO one and that the Instructor must provide the student with the capability to shut down the engine in flight IN CASE of an emergency.

[cbergen]

Mmmmm, Could be right. Difficult wording that one.......

Never was good at reading legalese.....:)

[wirlybird]

Lucky I never go anywhere without the co2 bottle , also had a mild fire in the fuzz.
Dave.

[cbdane]

The VERY interesting change is,

The pilot must instruct the supervising individual on how to perform an emergency shutdown of the turbine in flight from the pilot’s transmitter and the supervising individual must be empowered by the pilot to shut the turbine down in flight in the event of a loss of control emergency.

I believe this means to actually perform an auto!! Now we do auto's all the time with the Intrepid Turbines, but I haven't seen many others do it. You MUST be very confident in your auto skills and setup to do a real engine shutdown auto with an $8,000 bird....and I would have to be VERY confident in YOUR skills to do it with MY helicopter!! :)

There's that "chicken and the egg" again. So, do you need to own the turbine before obtaining the waiver? How are you going to demonstrate turbine emergency handling skills with anything other than a turbine-powered heli?

Still confused. :confused:

[cbergen]

You need to have access to one. If you already own it, great. Or you use, for instance, my bird at IRCHA or another funfly where there are Designated CD's. But, again, I have to be VERY confident in your skills.....

As stated, there are no rules preventing you from BUYING one BEFORE you have a waiver.

[DavidH]

Chris wrote:
We also travel around to funflies, with my turbine in tow, and again if you posses the flying skills, then you are welcome to fly mine with the buddy box for your test, usually Greg and I will be at the same funflies.


I have flown Chris's and Greg's turbines. Even gave Chris a little excitement at an event couple of years ago, when the rotor stalled on the down side of a loop. Chris has been very generous in allowing competent pilots have a go at flying the turbine. At my event couple years ago, we had about 15 pilots get there turbine waiver. Greg was here and as a Turbine CD on the list. He was able to sign off on the waiver. As a CD I was able to sign off on the waiver as the second person.
I have had my Rotory Turbine waiver for nearly 5 years. I have never owned a Turbine. Don't know if they have changed the requirements for getting the waiver. But it is a fairly simple process if you have the flight capabilities. Terry Nitsch signed off my waiver. At the time he was chairman of the Turbine committee for AMA.

As for owning a Turbine without a waiver. When Jetcat first started selling there Turbine heli a few years ago. They said they had sold nearly 100 turbine helis here in the USA. At that time there were only about 10 pilots that had an AMA Turbine waiver. LOL
You have to decide if it is worth the risk to go at it without the liability insurance.

David

[jimheliboy]

You need to have access to one. If you already own it, great. Or you use, for instance, my bird at IRCHA or another funfly where there are Designated CD's. But, again, I have to be VERY confident in your skills.....

As stated, there are no rules preventing you from BUYING one BEFORE you have a waiver.

Let a group of people mull it over, I would bet there are some that would enjoy making us register our Heli's as a dangerous weapon. Just to protect us from ourselves! If you have the means to buy something that you enjoy without endangering out-siders go for it. We are still a FREE Country...Just need to remind politicians of the fact! The most Dangerous Weapon we have in this Country is " Political Correctness "It should be Outlawed...Enough! I am wasting building and flying time.

[Skiddz]

Mmmmm, Could be right. Difficult wording that one.......

Never was good at reading legalese.....:)

Me either, but I get a LOT of practice reading FAA regs and Advisory Circulars... :)