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View Full Version : Swash - Rakonheli or Microheli and why


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Ampdraw
07-21-2011, 10:24 AM
As per title. Currently flying stock swash strengthened with cotton and ca.

Anyone tested both and prefer one?

Rakon is 1.29g website
Micro 1.35 website
Stock 1.20 measured

Looking for performance.

Thanks

Amp

CX2Pilot
07-21-2011, 04:09 PM
Hey Amp, I am looking for the same info as you, which one to get.

I read a post where there was a issue with the Rakonheli swash.

"The balls on the RH swash were glued in"

http://helifreak.com/showpost.php?p=3094914&postcount=25


Tom

liftbag
07-21-2011, 05:15 PM
As per title. Currently flying stock swash strengthened with cotton and ca.

Anyone tested both and prefer one?

Rakon is 1.29g website
Micro 1.35 website
Stock 1.20 measured

Looking for performance.

Thanks

Amp

Both are much more precise than the stock.
I've never had problems with the aluminium riveted balls of the RKH swash, but one can assume that those steel balls of Microheli swash will last longer.

The Microheli swashplate tilts slightly, but in a flybarless system this is not an issue.

Rakonheli told me that they could review their swashplate (SE version with steel balls? I don't know).

NCcraig
07-21-2011, 05:39 PM
I have a MH swash on my mCPX and have no complaints.

Craig

plexus
07-21-2011, 06:51 PM
I purchased the MH swash over the RKH because of the MH swash has threaded ball arms (apparently) rather than press fit ones on the RKH (apparently). The MH balls are slotted which is a good indication they are threaded and possibly replaceable if MH carries them.

Punkin71
07-21-2011, 07:19 PM
I have only flown a few times with the rkh swash and can say slop is very minimal of the stocker.

CX2Pilot
07-21-2011, 07:21 PM
Both are much more precise than the stock.
I've never had problems with the aluminium riveted balls of the RKH swash, but one can assume that those steel balls of Microheli swash will last longer.

The Microheli swashplate tilts slightly, but in a flybarless system this is not an issue.

Rakonheli told me that they could review their swashplate (SE version with steel balls? I don't know).



That is good to know that they are not glued in but riveted. Aluminium balls are
fine with me.
I am in contact with Mr. Rakon now to order some parts so I am watching this thread
to see how this swash is.
I would like to get the CNC frame also due out July 22th or 23th.
I may offer to do a review for him also.


Tom

Berchico
07-21-2011, 08:37 PM
I'm using the microheli swash and am quite impressed with it. It removed a lot of the shaking that was happening with the stock one.

jim_stoll
07-21-2011, 11:04 PM
I've never tried the Rakon swash. I had the MH swash for 4 days and absolutely loved it - right up until the bearing refused to turn any further. (That's not entirely true, it would still turn, but head speed was way down because it was so stiff, and it was difficult to turn the main shaft by hand when the main gear was removed.) I think I ended up with a bum bearing, but the swash itself was very, very nice. No wandering around the sky when trying to do precision work, would hover hands-off for several seconds, inverted was very stable and predictable. I have failed to get any response from MH despite repeated messages, IM attempts, etc (vs I've seen several folks referring to having a conversation w/ the fellow from Rakon), so customer service clearly isn't a priority. All that having been said, I've ordered another MH, and since so many others have had good luck with theirs, I'm hoping my 2nd one will go better than the first one. (I continue to try to contact MH to get $$ back or at least get them to send me another swash)

So, despite the setback, which I take to be an unusual occurrence, and the complete lack of any level of customer support thus far, I'd optimistically recommend the MH just based on 3-4 days of really nice performance. (if this one fails, I'm clearly going w/ the Rakon next. :-)

TurboProp
07-22-2011, 03:24 AM
I wanted the rakon one for the sweet red color, but alas they are out of stock. ( through cusker) I figure if there is something that causes the aluminum balls to fail then it might be a good idea to change the swash plate anyways. Plush the rakon one is advertised slightly lighter.

I'm pretty sure I saw a ball kit for the MH swash when I was looking though. Dunno, 6 of one half a dozon of the other if you ask me.

bbdmarch
07-22-2011, 11:46 AM
I've just fitted the MH swash and love it!

I usually focus on the swash when flying and having a silver blur to follow in the air makes life a bit easier. But the main benefit is that you get more precision.

If you hold the heli and run the motor to max and watch the swash you can see the stock one flex as it moves!

Now can some one make links out of carbon ?? Even less flex!

I've just fitted a MH swash and first flight was great!

I like the fact that you can follow the swash more easily in the air - I usually focus on the swash when flying, is that the best point to follow ??

If you run the motor up to full speed and move the sticks you can see the stock swash flex underload! Now can you get links of carbon fiber ?? For even less flex in the head!

JoeW
07-22-2011, 03:45 PM
I did a full RKH upgrade... unfortunately, my 3-in-1 fried between the time I ordered the RKH parts and when they arrived... So it's been sitting on my bench blinged out :oops:

Still no word from HH when they're going to have stock on the 3-in-1 replacement.

bbdmarch
07-22-2011, 04:08 PM
Last post was done twice as I thought the first on failed! Oops!

Ampdraw
07-23-2011, 08:58 AM
Thanks for the replies gents.

Liftbag, you refer to the Microheli swash as having a tilt...can you please elaborate?


Looking very closely at my strengthened stock swash...there was a bit of play between the ball and the shaft, I resized a new "oversize" solid mainshaft with 700 wet'n'dry to solve that. Looking at it again after the newly sized shaft it seems most of the play is due to the swash "turning". The anti-rotation pin has too much tolerance in the guide and that is where most of the "pitch" play is.

Anyway even if I fix that the balls are too loose, yep loose balls is a condition (affliction) that can be band-aided with grommets :D but that is only a solution to an existing issue rather than re-engineering the swash so the problem is non existent.

Looking closely at the RKH it doesn't look like they use a metal swash ball, rather a nylon tapered tube?


Anyone do the calculation on the geometry of these swashes? Distance between the lower balls and more importantly the width of the upper?

Amp

liftbag
07-23-2011, 10:18 AM
Thanks for the replies gents.

Liftbag, you refer to the Microheli swash as having a tilt...can you please elaborate?


Looking very closely at my strengthened stock swash...there was a bit of play between the ball and the shaft, I resized a new "oversize" solid mainshaft with 700 wet'n'dry to solve that. Looking at it again after the newly sized shaft it seems most of the play is due to the swash "turning". The anti-rotation pin has too much tolerance in the guide and that is where most of the "pitch" play is.

Anyway even if I fix that the balls are too loose, yep loose balls is a condition (affliction) that can be band-aided with grommets :D but that is only a solution to an existing issue rather than re-engineering the swash so the problem is non existent.

Looking closely at the RKH it doesn't look like they use a metal swash ball, rather a nylon tapered tube?


Anyone do the calculation on the geometry of these swashes? Distance between the lower balls and more importantly the width of the upper?

Amp

I mean that the maximum possible angle of the rotation plane of MH swash is lower than that obtained from the stock swash, while RKH swash is capable of higher inclination.
This is due to the placement of the ball joint.

Rakonheli swash have the lower placement, while Microheli has the higher.
In their view, this is an advantage. This is what they say in the description:
More than that, the Precision CNC Aluminum Swashplate is technically re-engineered center ball in line with swash arm balls to allow swashplate tilting linearly and precisely which produces the most accurate and fast cyclic response and cyclic power on Blade mCP X flybarless head system.
Honestly I can not enjoy this advantage, but probably those who have more precise thumbs of me, it would be good.

On the other hand, Rakonheli refers:
- Maximize swashplate tilting angle up to 24.7 degree.
I think it's possible to appreciate this advantage only in self-stable 4-channel helicopters.

I am convinced that one reason for the greater precision of the flight of the CNC swashplates than E-flite is the much more accurate ball joint.


Microheli has metal ball in delrin joint, Rakonheli the opposite.


The antirotation pins are thicker than the E-flite. The MH carbon pin is thicker than RKH.
You need to enlarge the guide of RKH cnc carbon main frame to accomodate the MH swashplate.

The swashplate guide of E-flite main frame has too much flex.
You can reinforce it like this picture
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4630/mainframeinrunnermod08.jpg

The geometry, understood as the distance between the balls (upper and lower) is identical to the E-flite swashplate in both CNC swashes.

Ampdraw
07-24-2011, 01:42 AM
Thanks for the detailed info liftbag.

Leaning toward the Microheli swash due to the metal swash ball. Figure the delrin in the rakonheli will wear faster. Hope I get a good bearing in the Microheli.

Last aspect, the available swash travel for cyclic...24.7 on the Rakonheli. You mention that it is capable of more than the Microheli.

I fly with 100 endpoints on aile / elev, 20% expo and 100% DR. 78 endpoint on pitch. Stock swash can handle full collective and full cyclic...just.

Is the microheli swash capable of this amount of travel?

Amp

liftbag
07-24-2011, 02:21 AM
Last aspect, the available swash travel for cyclic...24.7 on the Rakonheli. You mention that it is capable of more than the Microheli.

I fly with 100 endpoints on aile / elev, 20% expo and 100% DR. 78 endpoint on pitch. Stock swash can handle full collective and full cyclic...just.

Is the microheli swash capable of this amount of travel?

Amp

In a flybarless system the commands given with TX sticks does not correspond to a servo arm position, but instead define a rate of rotation.

Only if the helicopter is locked you can achieve servo endpoint.

During the flight, the slightest servo movement corresponds to a rotation that stops when the angle reach the position required by the gyro.

During the rotation, the swashplate is inclined slightly with respect to the main shaft because the variation of position with respect to the rotation axis meets the requirements of the flybarless stabilization system.

Only if you lock the helicopter, the servo arm continues to move to the endpoint and then taking the swash at maximum tilt. Is a condition that does not happen during the flight.

Is for this reason that a good ability to tilt is more important in a flybarred helicopter, where the sum of the cyclic and collective is immediately reached leading the tx sticks to their fullest extent.

English is not my language, so I hope to be able to explain what I mean in some way.

Paolo

jim_stoll
07-24-2011, 02:44 AM
I'm back on an MH swash today and I feel whole again! :-) (I also finished and flew my brushless conversion today, and I have to say, I'm extra glad to have the cnc swash - I'm not sure I'd want to fly the brushless setup w/ the stock swash...)

Ampdraw
07-24-2011, 06:48 AM
Thanks for the feedback liftbag. This is my first FBL heli however I'm familiar with HH tails and setting them up for both servo tails and dd motor tails.

I presume that just like a HH tail the FBL initially accepts your stick command and then has both acceleration and decelleration profile that gets your request done. So initially the servo moves full deflection to get the command started and then as the heli responds it starts reducing deflection as required. Currently I am just able to do poor half piro flips. Punching full forward cyclic and then "stirring" forward cyclic to full right aileron i'm pretty sure the swash deflects at least 75% collective, 100% elev and 100% aile for a moment then the ratio of aile to elev would change.

Anyway...is the microheli swash capable of both 100% endpoint (100% DR) Aile and Elev command without the lower swash touching the shaft?

Amp

liftbag
07-24-2011, 07:09 AM
Anyway...is the microheli swash capable of both 100% endpoint (100% DR) Aile and Elev command without the lower swash touching the shaft?

Amp

I say that the Microheli lower swash touch the shaft when you reach 100% Aile and a value from 60% to 90% Elev or 60% to 90% Aile with 100% Elev, depending on the four corners of the cyclic stick.
Rakonheli lower swash never touch the shaft.

Uncle Chop Chop
07-24-2011, 08:14 AM
"So it's been sitting on my bench blinged out"
JoeW, feeling for you mate:(

"Figure the delrin in the rakonheli will wear faster. Hope I get a good bearing in the Microheli."
Amp, that's what I first thought but to save on shipping and to keep it uniformed, I went with RKH. Be nice to replace it when it wears. I've been eyeing off my stock swashes to see if they can be removed.

Had plenty of crashes with bling on from short grass hard landings to soft ones and the only issue is the tail rotor mount comes loose even when the end of the boom is lightly CA'd. But, I guess that's expected as a part being so exposed. Love my RKH bling! Can't wait for the frame and skids to get sent over once the landing gears are in stock! Then BrushLess, baby!!! :Bang

rogersrick123
07-24-2011, 12:04 PM
I have Rakonheli swash plate's on both my MCP X heli's and they are working great. I would recommend them.

jim_stoll
07-28-2011, 05:27 PM
An update: I have heard back from a person named Huy from MH several times now. It took a while (and takes a while between replies), but Huy has been responding and apparently has worked with Horizon to get everything squared away. It did take HH sending me the swash to get this taken care of on my end, but MH seems to have done what they said they'd do, and in the end, I got a new MH swashplate, and it seems to be holding up better than the first one.

Just wanted to let folks know that there is a person on the other end at MH, and they are active and concerned about making sure things are taken care of. Responses aren't as fast as we're typically accustomed to, but the wheels do turn and they do seem concerned that their customers are taken care of.

FUNBOSS
07-28-2011, 10:00 PM
How's the durability of the swash plates over stock?

sps3172
07-28-2011, 10:26 PM
I wanted the rakon one for the sweet red color, but alas they are out of stock. ( through cusker)

The red RKH swash was in stock, at Cusker, as of yesterday....I spoke to Earl on the phone and he confirmed.