have you ever seen a bbq'd 300 dollar bill?

[cgbole]

well we roasted the motor today.
can anyone in the know give me a hint?
11s battery,cc hv85 (brand new) 32-3 on 10:1 ratio. we flew this heli at the tyler tx. funfly last week on a schulze 32.55 with no heat problems what so ever.############################################# ##########
# Castle Link Data File
# Created: Sunday, December 03, 2006
# Do Not Edit This File By Hand
################################################## #####
Brake Ramp: Super Slow
Cutoff Voltage: 180
Hex55: 85
Brake Strength: 0
Direction: Forward (*)
Spool-Up Speed: 6
Throttle Type: Heli: Governor High
Current Limiting: Disabled
Brake Delay: No Delay
Motor Start Power: 2.125
Throttle Response: 2
Motor Timing: Standard Advance (*)
Cutoff Type: Soft Cutoff
PWM Rate: 13khz (*)
Governor Gain: 24.2857142857143[/quote]

here is a video of the aftermath.
{Edit} i just seen that i didn't say i was running 12s when the motor fried sorry{edit}

[TomC]

Man is that motor ever toasted! The only comment I can make is that CC has told me to use low advance timing on all outrunners and the Neu 1521/1.5. They also recommended this for my Tango 45-08.

How did your battery packs fare?

Cheers,

Tom C

[cgbole]

fine really, all things considered. the "sealant?" or what ever it is that came out of the motor melted the heat shring and the smoke was a billowing. i thought it drove the main mast through the battery. but the smoke was coming from the motor.
so i have two HV 85's to go back in. one the heat sink came loose
and this one, i'm not sure if this was a set up issue,or defective motor or sp controller.
chuck

[Rickster]

The way I see it, if you fly the heli with a ESC and have NO issues, then switch to another ESC and you fry some stuff, to me it boils down to an ESC problem.. Like I said In my case I had well over 300 trouble free flights on the Hacker77.. Switched to the HV85 and in two days overheated (155*F) 4- 5S1P 4600 packs.. Went back to the Hacker 77 and the packs are running 105-117*..In actuality I did not find that the HV85 proided any more power so I still do not understand how it overheated the packs.. Also it did not over discharge them either, still a mystery to me...

I think the HV85 is working good for some people due to their particular flying style, I know for mine it was not a pleasant experience...

Sorry for your loss... :(

Rick

[GGoodrum]

Is the Phx HV 85 still good? Have you tried it with anything else? To me it sounds like one phase started popping FETs, which means the other two phases have to work that much harder to make up the difference. This causes the windings to heat up much more than normal, until finally the motor lets go. I've seen a Hacke A50 do this, as wll as a NM 1912.

I'd do a close physical inspection of the Phx HV 85, and look for popped FETs. It could only be a couple, enough to weaken the phase, but not enough to stop the motor from working. Usually, when the chain reaction starts, it is the ESC that blows up and not the motor. Occasionally, however, the motor lets go first.

As to the cause, I'm not sure. I do think, howver, that running the governor down so low puts a lot more strain on the controller and the motor. Plus, by doing that, you are giving up the mechanical torque advantage that taller gearing provides.

-- Gary

[cgbole]

i'll look at it closer to see if i can find anything with it. i flew it on 11s at the tyler texas funfly two weekends ago with a 32.55 and it was just fine.
also the 1st Hv 85 i had on it worked fine also. i was going to order a belt and pulley set to make up a belt drive for it. but hadn't gotten everything together yet. well now that i need to do another rebuild. i'll have time to work out a mount. but i think i'll just wait on a Z70? and i'll send these two 85's in for replacement.
thanks for the help guys, we'll see what happens.
thanks
chuck

[FBJR]

First thing I thought was the ESC setup too. Gary spelled it out nicely.

I am still a solid believer in adjusting the HS with gearing, not the %.

JMHO

[cgbole]

ok thanks guys.
i looked at the esc as close a i could with out tearing the heat shrink off of it. altho the top of the heatshrink is kind of melted a little.
i don't know if it's still good don't have anything else to plug it into right now. but something is up with it.
thanks for pointing me in the right direction...
chuck

[WillJames]

What Gear ratio are you running?

What HS did you get on your tach when you ran up the machine in fixed endpoint mode at 75%?

What HS did you get at 50% GOV mode?

[TomC]

What Gear ratio are you running?

What HS did you get on your tach when you ran up the machine in fixed endpoint mode at 75%?

What HS did you get at 50% GOV mode?

Doctor Will,

Don't forget, what time of the day? What was the outside temp and humidity? and, was there a full moon?

Just kidding, but really, it seems to me that if anyone has a problem with any CC hv esc on this forum it is usually pointed out that it is a set-up problem and/or if we all had Clint setting up our heli's, these esc's would work perfectly!

Gearing is pretty important. Run it up with fixed endpoints and tack the hs at 100% throttle and 0 deg pitch. The ideal gov'd hs will be ~100-250 rpm less than this, for best efficiency/power. If this is too high, or low, re-gear it accordingly.

Motor Advance Timing is also very impotant. These esc'c use dynamic timing and will really work your motor and batteries to the limit, esp if you are a stick banger or your heli is a bit over pitched. I use the low advance timing setting on all my motors, and CC has recommended to me to use this on all outrunners and Neu motors.

Throttle Response needs to be set low, to very low (1 to 2) or you will strip a lot of gears and/or belts.

Even if your motor has very low inductance (like the Tango's) keep the pwm freq set at low default (13 khz). The CC escs cannot handle higher pwm freq's and this can fry them pretty quickly (I know now!).

Try running these escs with 100% throttle idle-up curves and gov'd mode (at ~100, 200, and 300 rpm hs less than 100% zero pitch) to see what suits you and your heli best. Different strokes for different folks!

Imop, these esc's are still a bit hit-and-miss and way too over complicated to program. If you get a good one, keep it forever, otherwise, keep sending it back to CC for a replacement and maybe you will eventually get back a perfect one (~3-5 weeks turn-around time).

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Tom C

[Rickster]

:D :noteworthy :smokin:

Tom you forgot also what color canopy is on the Heli and you should also use the

"Heat of the Meat + Angle of the dangle X pi = " formula when doing any logistics computations...

:mrgreen: :glasses2: :lolol

Rick

[WillJames]

I asked a serious question. You guys need to get your head out of your asses. There are MANY people who can gear and fly a heli with the CC controllers. Take a look at the NATS, XFC or any other competition in this country and you will see MANY CC ESC's that somehow miraculusly people like me and Clint got working "somehow". You guys seem like the only ones who have a vendetta or whatever against Castle. I for one appreciate that a company has tailored a ESC to specific heli options and software upgradable at that. I call it like I see it, look at any competition and see what ESC's the pilots run.

Give me a break, if you want to keep people from getting the help they need, then you are doing a great job. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :badair: :badair: :badair: :bomb:

[TomC]

Will,

I'm not knocking CC. They have great customer service and offer a good range of esc's at reasonable prices. Lot's are having no problems with these escs and they are selling a lot of them. My hv110 is working pretty well on my 10s Ion-x. I hope it works as well when I try 12s later this year. If I have 12s problems, I'm sure CC will respond in a proper manner and help me sort it out.

I have tried to explain how I have gotten them to work and what things to look out for. If you do not agree with what I've said, say so. Please do not take all this as a personal afront. I think that this is a little more useful than your open-ended, unexplained questions which quite frankly do not help anyone imop.

If you do not want anyone to hear the full story of other's experiences with these escs, you're doing a great job as well. I certainly won't bother to post anymore of my experiences with these escs in HF given your over-the-top response.

Cheers,

Tom C

[cgbole]

see the note above in the original post....
i thought i said i was running 12s when this happened but i didn't sorry.
chuck

hey come on.. i wasn't trying to start a war or anything.
and i'm thankful for anyhelp and advice.
i didn't tach it during the flight. the one prior to the crash was fine.
my head speed was around 1900 on 11s and the 1st speed controller worked fine. i had a crash a few weeks ago that aparantly knocked the heat sink loose, as well as scrape a little covering off one of the caps on the front of it. but the controller was under the reciever on the side of
the frames and there are no signs of damage to the heat sink. but when i removed it from the frames the heat sink came off. so i used a 32.55
while at a funfly 2 weeks ago everything was working fine no heat no surging ect...
i got a 2nd controller HV85 it looked different than the old one. and i had read of some people sending them in to do a mod to it or something.
because of a problem with running 12s.
this one had a sticker under the shrink wrap, wit dates on it and other numbers as well. so i set it up like the last one and it worked fine till i put 12s on it. then this happened.
ratio was 10:1 just like last one. set up was like last one except i set the gov different is all.
chuck

[WillJames]

I think that this is a little more useful than your open-ended, unexplained questions which quite frankly do not help anyone imop.


Speak for yourself Tom.


i thought i said i was running 12s when this happened but i didn't sorry.


Even on 11s you would be much safer running 10.4 to 10.7 IMHO. 10:1 on 12s is way to hard on the ESC and Motor IMHO.

From the testing I have seen and done with the 32-3, 10:1 was really only good for 10s in our testing. Once we went to 11s witht he 32-3 in the Ion-X we had to go to at least 10.4+ and for 12s way higher (may still be a secret, I don't know for sure)

The other thing is yea it could have been the ESC, or it could have been the motor, or it could have been collateral damage to the motor from prior ESC's or it could have been a lot of things. When you are so limited to a ratio as you are Chuck, it is VERY hard to go 11 and 12s without putting a lot of strain on the components.

Go ahead and say all you want Tom and Rick, but the fact remains with any ESC/Motor/Heli combo that if you try to make a poorly selected ratio/esc/motor do what is MUCH harder on everything than the proper ratio (I know Chuck had no choice) it is VERY hard to do it successfully. A few people do but obviously none of us. ;)

When you do this to your helis, stuff gets fried, I have been there and done that myself.


If you set yourself up for success with the right ratio, you gain success. You can do things however you want Tom, but what I do is try to determine what is right for a given setup before I blame individual components for the shortcomings in my gear ratios or setups that I run in spite of knowing that they are not a good match.

I learned about the Ion-X and the CC controllers over a long period of time. I have been flying a prototype belt drive for 5+ months trying to help figure out and prove what were the best ratios with the CC controllers and the 32-3. I did not feel the need to discuss the belt drive Ion specifically before now, as it was a secret and is now a tool that was used to learn. We have learned a lot. Running the 32-3 on 12s at 10:1 and turning the GOV to 50% is not something I would have tried. It is very hard on the system.

Per Clint and many posts that have been made by people like Rob Gayle, and myself, you run the CC HV controller up to 75 to even 95 % and you are not going to be able to govern the head back more than 200 to 300 RPM or so. It is that simple. If you try to go more than that, you have reached the point of diminishing returns and you need to re-gear. It is that simple. Setting the endpoints on the throttle channel is only part of the equation.

I have tried to explain how I have gotten them to work and what things to look out for. If you do not agree with what I've said, say so. Please do not take all this as a personal afront. I think that this is a little more useful than your open-ended, unexplained questions which quite frankly do not help anyone imop.

Not knowing the number of cells you can explain how to make this work and call others who ask for specifics things like unexplained? I don't get that at all, but no big deal, I don't have the time to argue with someone who is obviously trying to pick a fight.

So just for you and Rick Tom.... If you don't get select the proper ratio for any given setup, you could be exposing your motor and ESC and Packs to a lot of unneeded stress. No matter how you set you rendpoints, your throttle curves or what ESC/motor you run, this is still a fact that you need the right ratio to make it work right.

[Rickster]

Will, you need to get off your High Horse and look at the big picture.. I agree we all make mistakes in setups and try to "cheat " our way out electronically sometimes by bending the rules a little on throttle curves and such....

Since you were so kind to bring me into your pissin match here answer me this...

I have flown my IOn on 9.5:1 then 10:1 ratio with the 32-3 and Hacker77 for close to 3 years now.. I have logged well over 300 flights on my 8000mah Prolites and have many flights on my 4600's as well.. The motor has NEVER been over 120F and the ESC never over 110F and the Batteries ranged anywhere from 105-115F.. I leave EVERYTHING the same. I change out the ESC to the HV85 . I change nothing in the Transmitter setup but the throttle curve. I set it up ESC as per Clints instructions. I fly the Heli the same way that I flew it with the Hacker. I fly for the same time and put back similar Mah (3400 range) but mysteriously by batteries are now running 155F. The heli doesn't fly like it has any extra "Punch". I fly with an FAI setup. I GOV the hover for 1450rpm(Same as the Hacker but I do it with V curve) and upstairs set it for 1850rpm(Same as the Hacker).
In the air when I pull up for a large loop and get on the collective hard (WOT just like the Hacker) I can hear it grunt some, problem is it never seems to recover from the grunt the rest of the flight. Problem seems like it is not consistant tho, I put a WATTS up on it for a flight and only recorded max of 64A, but on that flight I never heard it "Grunt" yet I fly the same flight plan..

HMMM .... Maybe, just maybe

Perhaps there is still some work needing to be done in the Firmware to address constant loads like are seen in FAI flying, where as in 3D flying you are loading it then letting it "Breath" a little before hitting it again.

Please do not tell me that the firmware could not be an issue.. Anyone that has flow Castle for a long time will remember the 1.11 Firmware.. This was Castles updated firmware to address startup issues with outrunner motors. Only problem was that the ESC would get SO hot it would melt the MOSFET's off the board and unsolder the wires off of it as well. This is not hear say or my buddy had a freind with a cousin that heard.. I was there , been there done that and bought the T-Shirt.. After seeing the ESC (PH-25) poof after a 30 second hover with the 1.11 firmware I checked out the other PH-25 that I had in my Shogun (Also with 1.11 newly installed).. Spooled it up in my hand and felt the ESC and it was so hot that it burned me.. I let it cool off and re-flashed it back to 1.021 firmware and it went back to running cool and am still using it today in a Foamy 3D plane.

So in closing Will, if you feel that Castle could not possibly have any fault in any of the component failures and US/WE, the end users that are having problems, are just a bunuch of Dumb AZZes that do not know Shite from Shinola then I see no reason to look here for Help or To provide Help when needed..

In my original post I stated that I had a bad experience with my HV85 and that I NEVER had a problem with the Hacker and when I put the HAcker back in I am back to flying with no issues...PERIOD

If this offends you then all I can say is
Sorry bout that....

Rick

[TomC]

Will,

I am not trying to pick a fight or argue about what is the best set-up procedure for CC, or any other esc. There are lots of ways to skin the old cat, and as long as you get the same results, that's great.

I always have said that gearing is very important (probably should have said most important), and said so in my previous reply;

" Gearing is pretty important. Run it up with fixed endpoints and tack the hs at 100% throttle and 0 deg pitch. The ideal gov'd hs will be ~100-250 rpm less than this, for best efficiency/power. If this is too high, or low, re-gear it accordingly. '

This simple procedure is almost the same as Chris (ex-MA) explains in his excellent Razor Power systems where he suggest you use 200 rpm headroom for gov mode and gear around this.

The other major item I think can be an issue with CC hv escs is motor advance timing. Once your gearing is right, the advance timing can have a big effect on motor and battery temps. I also said this in the same previous reply;

" Motor Advance Timing is also very important. These esc'c use dynamic timing and will really work your motor and batteries to the limit, esp if you are a stick banger or your heli is a bit over pitched. I use the low advance timing setting on all my motors, and CC has recommended to me to use this on all outrunners and Neu motors. "

I also mentioned throttle response and pwm freq issues and recomendations.

Anyway, I thought that this was pretty useful info, but apparently you do not agree. I guess that any slightly negative CC comment is enough for you to negate everything else and basically tell us that we don't know what we are talking about.

Sorry, I really do not get you sometimes Will.

Cheers,

Tom C

[OICU812]

My purpose of my response will simply be to point out a few reasons to "Tom and Rick" as to why "Will" very likely gave his response he did.


Tom C. I had to overcome a few barriers to know you myself and to know how you speak things and for me to realize you were not being a smartass or to be condesending. I do feel I have a grasp on your nature and your wording now so it is cool and I have nothing against you for certain. However I can see how some people would take this as quite offensive, I can tell you without having history with you I certainly would...


Doctor Will,

Don't forget, what time of the day? What was the outside temp and humidity? and, was there a full moon? Even with the "just kidding" part right after, that get can a persons blood boiling pretty fast, especially as those kind of terms can easily be taken as "fighting words".

Now Rickster I do not know you however, right after that to stir it more you said.
Tom you forgot also what color canopy is on the Heli and you should also use the
Pretty harmless however you allready got the man a little reved and this can be seen as pokin someone with a stick while they are allready down. Just outside looking in it does appear this way.

Guys I have nothing against any of you, certainly I am not wanting to take sides, however someone from "outside" the conversation had to point these things out, may as well hate me lol. The internet can be a tricky thing, we all know how emotions can not truly be emphasized and how words can be taken in so many ways as we can not hear our tones in our voices nor can we see the expressions on our faces. I myself on more than a few occassions have had to put my foot in my mouth. I don't think this was meant to get heated on the account of the CC product at all, I simply feel you guys attacked the man a little.

Anyhow you guys are all good, lets keep focus on what this thread was about in the begining and the unfourtenete motor situation etc.

I myself can support both sides on the CC thing. I have been able to get mine tuned in quite well and am pleased with their performance. I had in the past had some bad luck as well, it has been a balance for me, be well.

[Rickster]

I never intended this to turn into a Tit for Tat confrontation.. I purchased my HV85 with my own money(not Will's)so if I am unhappy with my results that is my business.. I nver thought that Will would take the Castle Creations criticisms SO personal(Major Stockholder?? :noteworthy )..

If my wording or jestures initially insulted or insinuated ill feelings toward Will or anyone else on this board I sincerely apologize, my posts were only a vent of frustration for taking a perfect working setup and trying to make it "Better" and in the quest of that cost myself $500.00..

I am hard headed and will try just about anything once and if it fails I will continue to try until I succeed, however this one hit a little hard in the pocket so I bailed on this endeavor and put my old reliable setup back into action..

Again if I said something in a post that seemed too "personal" I apologize but if some people are gonna get bent out of shape for others making comments about issues or problems with a vendor or product then I think we need to just agree to disagree and go on...

Rick

[TomC]

Thanks Shawn,

Good to have a 3rd party look at these things once in a while. Will (no pun intended) try to take your points on-board in the future.

Cheers,

Tom C

[Clintstone]

I have just read this post. I want to say I am proud of the final resolve and Mutual Respect. I am in no way dogging anybody here but as Tom says there is more than one way to skin a cat. My way of setting up the CC esc's has never been said to be the Gospel but I have had good luck a simply want to help. I will say it is not easy to understand or explain as many very competent people have been confused by the setup but when shown in person the see how simple it can be. The reason some people ask questions when trying to help is because they are not fully understanding the situation but are concerned enough to ask. Our technology is changing fast and we can all benefit more from sharing than not.I hope we can all continue to work together as I value the input from you all and together we can move ahead much faster than trying to go it alone. Thanks for everyones efforts here and as we may not always agree we can atleast respect each other. Thanks Each of You.

[choppersquadron]

I would highly recommend you rething the whole Neumotor idea,ive had nothing but downtime,waiting,motor failure and grief from my bad decision to buy this brand of motor,it failed just as quickly as the other brands that sell for a third of the price,,as did my friends,that plus the $800 to fix my bird i really regret ever buying one,and dont expect any joy from steve on that note,you may get another motor but in the long run you will run out of helis to keep putting them into,whats the point?

[PG 378]

What a bummer, man! :(

[shamen222]

This might not be the place but there is a CC discussion going on here and I thought I might get some answers...a bunch of you guys have answered my questions in the past so here goes.... I have a CChv85 and a hacker A50-16s.. the specs on the motor say to run it a 8pwm but the cchv85 only goes to 13 does this even matter?? I have read that the Hackers run hot to begin with but mine runs hot....185 and I have seen it even go up to 213...the three second rule ...you can not do... way to hot... bats are new and good, its on a razor, gearing is 8.4, swinging 600's, headspeed is 1900, I get about 4.5 mins out of the 10s 3700's, I am running a throttle curve... And I cant even think of another thing you could ask... I will try lowering my timing now that I have heard of the issues with that.. thanks...