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dl7uae
07-27-2011, 08:02 AM
@jhheli
Okay.. Strange.. What BEC voltage do you measure now (everything unplugged)?

I read at Runryder that the servos seem to be damaged, moving but twitching. And the tail voltage limiter smells "other" now.:) So that points on overvoltage.

Again: And now? Still overvoltage or zero?

Also again: JIVE's LED not showing up on power-on?

As I said at the start: I do not have an idea where to get both in context, ESC and BEC.. The JIVE should be returned to K for forensic.

Bummer that there was no JLog recording that. On the other hand the logger w'd power-fail also in that moment, but may have recorded the incident after the initial power-fail.

Tom

Mystic3D
07-27-2011, 08:37 AM
I pulled a jive 80 hv off, the wires don't change where they go, master in esc collective, slave any free port been doing this over 400 flights on all other jives, batteries 10s in parallel plugged to the esc, no buffer or caps or anything extra, plain and simple how it has been running for over 100+ flights on this heli alone with a jive using the jive bec.

I have a post also, Mr Mel is running the same setup, so if you where referring to something being hooked up wrong then that is not the case, I do not have a prog disc so the voltage stayed at 5.6v the default same on all the other helis I have run jives on, and thats what it was in the v bar 5.6v.

Don't worry about the inference of you hooking it up wrong, it's called denial.

Mine went back as Magneto was nice enough to PM me before I hooked it up. In my case it would have been a direct swap for a Jive 120HV. But no way I am going to risk my electronics with a $560.00 ESC that I bought for reliability.

Everyone screws up now and then. But it is an opportunity for Kontronik to shine depending on how they handle the situation. If they man up quickly, pull the ESC's, and admit there is a problem and communicate then they will be fine.Then they have some time to find the root cause.

or they can take the Castle route and deny for a year while failures and heli's go up in smoke. after that they can start selling them for $200 if at all.

I run Kontronik's on all my birds and you can call me a die hard fan.

dl7uae
07-27-2011, 10:52 AM
it's called denial
Joker.:YeaBaby: Am not Kontronik.

Anyway. I have a good communication to K and I'm interesting in clarification as jhheli "might be", especially as I as electronics engineer cannot understand an apparent relation between the ESC part of the JIVE and such a bad damage of the BEC.

Tom

Mystic3D
07-27-2011, 11:41 AM
Joker.:YeaBaby: Am not Kontronik.

Anyway. I have a good communication to K and I'm interesting in clarification as jhheli "might be", especially as I as electronics engineer cannot understand an apparent relation between the ESC part of the JIVE and such a bad damage of the BEC.

Tom

If I were to guess the unique thing about Vbar and phase sensor is you
Have coupled the esc motor output(phase sensor) HV side > to the LV(BEC) side by plugging the phase sensor into the VBar.




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dl7uae
07-27-2011, 12:19 PM
If I were to guess the unique thing about Vbar and phase sensor is you
Have coupled the esc motor output(phase sensor) HV side > to the LV(BEC) side by plugging the phase sensor into the VBar.
Depends on the circuitry of the phase sensor in use.
Depends on the maximum voltage rating of that sensor and what may happen inside of the sensor in that case.
Oops!...

Another question that I forgot to ask:
Speaking about a bad commutation failure that may have happened.. What firmware version is the V-Bar? Don't say 5.1.7, please say 5.1.10beta...

K is very interested to get this JIVE in their hands.

Tom

Mystic3D
07-27-2011, 12:34 PM
Depends on the circuitry of the phase sensor in use.
Depends on the maximum voltage rating of that sensor and what may happen inside of the sensor in that case.
Oops!...

Another question that I forgot to ask:
Speaking about a bad commutation failure that may have happened.. What firmware version is the V-Bar? Don't say 5.1.7, please say 5.1.10beta...

K is very interested to get this JIVE in their hands.

Tom

Pretty sure Hyperion Phase Sensor and 5.1.7.
Will look up the specs of the Hyperion later


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jtjohn1
07-27-2011, 01:27 PM
Depends on the circuitry of the phase sensor in use.
Depends on the maximum voltage rating of that sensor and what may happen inside of the sensor in that case.
Oops!...

Another question that I forgot to ask:
Speaking about a bad commutation failure that may have happened.. What firmware version is the V-Bar? Don't say 5.1.7, please say 5.1.10beta...

K is very interested to get this JIVE in their hands.

Tom

Unless you are a beta tester how would you get your hands on the Beta version of the software?? Are the Heli Jives only compatiable with 5.1.10?? I don't see it for download

I talked to Jheli and as far as I know it's just the Hyperion Phase Sensor

I do know that he was shipping the unit back to Kontronics today (He said it should be there by Friday)

Magneto
07-27-2011, 02:21 PM
Heres the latest news just sent to me by a HF brother. Little consolation I know, but... RH has pulled all inventory and had all dealers send them back as well. Entire load is going to Germany. They reproduced the failure on the bench. Your not crazy. Something is wrong. Whether it be batch related or design flaw.

Kontronik will have to investigate. Next batch is indefinite right now and RH told me they would flog one when they have been fixed before putting on the store again. Excellent service from RH anyway.

Figured you'd want to know if you don't.

Mystic3D
07-27-2011, 02:42 PM
Yea Baby. That's what I am talking about, quality always wins in the end.
Good move Kontronik .


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jtjohn1
07-27-2011, 02:53 PM
Yea Baby. That's what I am talking about, quality always wins in the end.
Good move Kontronik .


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That's if it's true (Not saying it's not just if it's true) You would hope that RH would send out emails to everybody who has already purchased them recalling them.

Also when I talked to RH they said they were out of stock (Of course this may be the reason) but made no mention of any recall (This was yesterday)

Sent an Email to Kontronics about this two days ago and haven't heard squat back yet.

jmb2232
07-27-2011, 03:04 PM
I just sent RH an email asking them what I should do with my unit. We'll see what they advise............
Mike B.

Mystic3D
07-27-2011, 03:16 PM
Be a little patient, we are on Internet time here.


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dl7uae
07-27-2011, 04:33 PM
Unless you are a beta tester how would you get your hands on the Beta version of the software?? Are the Heli Jives only compatiable with 5.1.10?? I don't see it for download
What I've heard from Kontronik about that:

There was a cooperation with Uli on that JIVE-VBgovernor issue of course.
The central problem is around the initial spoolup with a stationary motor. That have to be done by the ESC, imperatively. On the other hand there is the V-Bar governor, not knowing about commutational conditions and current PWM (w'd be possible via JLog). The governor runs a throttle ramp for spoolup to desired rpm. The trick is now, also depending on the type of motor (slow runner or not) to find the right point of time for passing the control over to the governor.

What I've heard from Kontronik is, that in the end they (K and Uli) found a good working solution in which after a timeout of 5 seconds after startup (governor's throttle passing a threshold value) control is handed over to the governor. What means: The governor waits that time before continuing to run its spoolup throttle ramp. The trick with that is to find a point at which no bigger jump in the throttle value (-->PWM) takes place - to avoid possible problems with hot motors, commutation glitches, a pirouette on ground also.

What I've heard further: On the V-Bar side the result of this adaptation process is the 5.1.10 implementing the wait loop mechanism.

Tom

Luisito
07-27-2011, 08:29 PM
That's if it's true (Not saying it's not just if it's true) You would hope that RH would send out emails to everybody who has already purchased them recalling them.

Also when I talked to RH they said they were out of stock (Of course this may be the reason) but made no mention of any recall (This was yesterday)

Sent an Email to Kontronics about this two days ago and haven't heard squat back yet.

This thread is very interesting. In regards to RH they are indeed a quality company and if Kontronik is recalling the Heli Jive then they are responding in a responsible way. :thumbup:

As for why the Heli Jive is out of stock it was due to the demand of having that perfect setup of a quality ESC that Kontronik is combined with the V-Bar's governor. I had the Heli Jive in my cart at RH when it was first in stock and before I had a chance to check out it was out of stock. So I doubt they were out of stock because of the recall since that very night there were threads here on HF of ancious buyers to get a hold of the Heli Jive.

Luis

Mystic3D
07-27-2011, 08:55 PM
This thread is very interesting. In regards to RH they are indeed a quality company and if Kontronik is recalling the Heli Jive then they are responding in a responsible way. :thumbup:

As for why the Heli Jive is out of stock it was due to the demand of having that perfect setup of a quality ESC that Kontronik is combined with the V-Bar's governor. I had the Heli Jive in my cart at RH when it was first in stock and before I had a chance to check out it was out of stock. So I doubt they were out of stock because of the recall since that very night there were threads here on HF of ancious buyers to get a hold of the Heli Jive.

Luis

Yes looks like FastLad(UK) shows stock on the HeliJive. RH and Fastlad are the two main distributors. So if it was pulled you would think Fastlad would show no stock,

Justin Stuart
07-28-2011, 06:10 AM
Still doesn't explain why all of the servos are getting damaged.

dl7uae
07-28-2011, 06:36 AM
Well... this is a didactic play about human mind.:D

Step 1:
One guy experienced a problem. He cannot say what exactly happened, from his description it sounds like the BEC has burned and gave the raw voltage out to the R/C voltage bus. Although that should not can happen (theoretically) because of a safety switch behind the buck converters...

Step 2:
Another one reporting that someone he knows experienced a similar effect (not the same) with a JIVE times ago, no HeliJIVE.
That seems to proof to the human mind that in fact something may be wrong.

Step 3:
The next one reporting that RH reproduced the failure on the bench. RH itself did not announce anything.

And then: They pull the whole inventory. (That's true.)

And now:
Everybody knows that there's something wrong with HeliJIVE. Everybody except of K.

Lovely. LOL:D

jtjohn1
07-28-2011, 08:22 AM
Well... this is a didactic play about human mind.:D

Step 1:
One guy experienced a problem. He cannot say what exactly happened, from his description it sounds like the BEC has burned and gave the raw voltage out to the R/C voltage bus. Although that should not can happen (theoretically) because of a safety switch behind the buck converters...

Step 2:
Another one reporting that someone he knows experienced a similar effect (not the same) with a JIVE times ago, no HeliJIVE.
That seems to proof to the human mind that in fact something may be wrong.

Step 3:
The next one reporting that RH reproduced the failure on the bench. RH itself did not announce anything.

And then: They pull the whole inventory. (That's true.)

And now:
Everybody knows that there's something wrong with HeliJIVE. Everybody except of K.

Lovely. LOL:D


You forgot

Step 4.
Engineer with no personal knowledge of anybody involved or any of the equipment involved stands up and says "That can't happen. It's impossiable."

Kontronic has made mistakes in the past (They don't release perfect products every single time) If memory serves the version 9 of the firmware was to fix a bug that could have caused folks to lose thier Helis as well.

The Heli Jive hasn't been widly tested (by many people. Note I did not say extensivly tested I said widley tested. I am sure it was tested to the nth degree) Obviously Kontronic/RH think there is a problem (I would bet there have been quite a few more instances of this happening other than the ones posted here) since I doubt they would have done something this drastic on the basis of two reports.

I am not saying it's NOT user error that's always a possibility. But if it is then Kontronic screwed up because if there is a way to hook the thing up that passes bench tests but fries your electronics when under load it should probably be in the manual with a great big *DO NOT DO THIS* in the heading and/or a change in the hardware/software to make it impossiable.

Inverse
07-28-2011, 09:01 AM
The list of ESCs that don't blow things up appears do be diminishing.

bkervaski
07-28-2011, 09:12 AM
And then: They pull the whole inventory. (That's true.)

Based on what? I've talked to RH about this and they didn't indicate they pulled the inventory or to send mine back, they said there were only a few reports or problems and they were in contact with Kontronik.

dl7uae
07-28-2011, 09:51 AM
Okay, generally and also based on Bill's posting:

Don't misunderstand me, please. Not saying that it is impossible that there might be a problem. Shit happens every day..

What I tried to say is: Nobody knows anything at the moment, including Kontronik. Hopefully the JIVE from jhheli will appear tomorrow or at least on Monday K's side of the pond. We will see, said the blind man.:)

Tom

Mystic3D
07-28-2011, 09:53 AM
2 guys had BEC Failure, Magneto and jtjohn. Both were replacing Jives, so doubtful user error. No one has responded to
my earlier post asking for a HeliJive working in Mode 9. Guys here still have them but are waiting.

At this point no "official" communication from RH or KT has been sent.

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Justin Stuart
07-28-2011, 11:19 AM
The list of ESCs that don't blow things up appears do be diminishing.

Nitro is looking better and better every day.:thumbdown:

marcosp
07-28-2011, 11:24 AM
Nitro is looking better and better every day.:thumbdown:
To exhibit in a heli museum??? hehehe.

helicraze
07-28-2011, 04:44 PM
When it fails it seems to output a 50V pulse for a short while then dead! Had this happen a long time ago on V6 120HV.

Worked fine on 1 lipo, plugged in next and it was dead!