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View Full Version : How Radio Range is effected by a Fadec


Bell Bloke
04-07-2007, 06:51 AM
I know this is a bit long folks but I think you should read this one as it may save your turbine.

Well at last 'MIRO' is back and better than before, with its new home grown uprated main gearbox it can now handle all the power that that massivley punchy Wren can throw at it.
Those following the 'Miro Saga with know that after 80 perfect flying hours it went in due to a radio problem. This has now I'm happy to say been traced at last (I think) with the help of a radio boffin.

1. The radio going in and out of failsafe on the ground with nothing running was not the cause of the crash!! Huh? No, it was due to me putting the radio on the roof of the car with antenna in a little. This apparantly can reduce the transmission to zero and so induce a failsafe. Did you also know that you should never even stand near a large metal object when flying because, according to radio geek, it can rob you of all of your range.... Radio geek also said that large wet buildings, wet grass, & even wet trees can effect your range hugely. This will of course not bring you down but if it were coupled with a badly routed aerial or a noisey bearing, then you are in trouble, he says.
2. The cause of the crash was a noisy bearing, no not a main shaft or engine bearing but the very difficult to check, main pinion bearing. Infact what happened is the bearing was fine but the pinion was spinning in the bearing inner which over the roar of the engine we could not hear. This meant that ultimately the reciever couldn't hear the transmitter and so game over.
So after all that it would appear there were 2 seperate issues and on seeing the failsafe activate on the ground with nothing running we went of down the wrong track. Had we acted on the lockouts we saw in the air we would naturally assumed metal to metal and replaced every bearing on 'Miro' there and then.

Anyway back to Mr Radio Geek. He set about re-routing the antenna because he said that it ran too close to the side frames, and that this would reduce the range...and he was right.
He also said that a quick easy control test is to check your radio range out of the model and with 1 or 2 servos plugged in, this will give you a true range, then install it and re-test the aim being to get the same range as before.... 'We know all that I hear you old timers cry...well I bloody didn't 'cos I don't fly in a club, and there are so many people who say they know in clubs but don't.
Finally you plug in your various regulators and speed controllers etc and re-test, now how is your range?
How many of us just plug everything in and then range check, because that's what I've always done.
So now here is the crunch, the Fadec when plugged in did have an effect on the range even with a ferrite ring on. The Futaba radio got 78 yards with the aerial 1 segment out, but once the Fadec was plugged in this was reduced to 50 yards. Yes that's still fine, and I've always had that kind of range with the turbine in the past but, and here is the scary bit. If you postion the antenna too close to the side frames the range is as follows, with 1 transmitter segment out. 44 yards no Fadec and only 18 yards with the Fadec in, now that is starting to get a bit borderline. Yes it is true that for this test Miro was nose in and on the ground, this being the weakest signal presented because the aerial runs tailwards, and that in the air there may never be a problem. However what happens if you are standing too close to a car with these other factors in place...well I think you folks get the picture.
So look I'm sorry to waffle on here but as you know me by now I post as I find, I'm not an expert but I fly a hell of a lot and I always push the limits. A Turbine helicopter represents a considerable investment to some people... I'm just trying to protect your interest and mine.
So what of the Fadec? Well had I not done a check with/without, I would be none the wiser and happy, but I have and I am now wondering if anything can be done to improve the effect it has.
Any thoughts?
Regards as always, Bell Bloke

Ps. Get range checking folks, because all of these factors add up to reduce range and just because you have never had a problem don't think you are safe because PCM is all or NOTHING!! 'Miro' seconds before it went in, had not a glitch not a twitch, nothing, and then there was NOTHING....

Greg Alderman
04-07-2007, 09:06 AM
Bloke...I found the same thing about 3 years ago with my RCrotortech Zealous...I had just competed it and was set for the maiden flight...range checked it with nothing turned on...and was great...got ready to fly and thought..."you know, maybe I should check this with the turbine running also" ...lost signal and the RX went into fail safe at about 3 meters away...(9z with bottom antenna segment extended)...shocked the crap out of me! I had the FADEC and the R149DP separated only by a layer of Zeal mounting gel...moved the RX and FADEC about 2" apart and ran the RX antenna farther away from the FADEC and all was back to nomal.

I made sure with my Bergen Turbine that the FADEC and RX was at least a couple of inches from each other and have never had a problem in over 500 flights...

One thing I did do here in the states was to change the Ferrite core on the throttle lead to one rated for 50-100Mhz...the one on my FADEC was Yellow, and from what I could find on the web, was rated from around 10-50Mhz...not sure if it matters but the US RC freqs are 72Mhz...

Later,
Greg

heliman53
04-07-2007, 02:50 PM
Hi Greg, good point I have my Fadec in front and the RX in back and range is the same with or without Fadec, running or not. Bell, gald you got things sorted out and thanks for the info. Anything that helps keep my Turbine from incident is a plus! Craig B

Bell Bloke
04-07-2007, 04:23 PM
Hi Greg, that is very interesting. Now none of the layout has changed since the old Miro set-up. The reciever and antenna run the same route as before however the new fadec does sit slightly closer to the reciever and wires that before because the new units plugs come out of the top and so will not strap to the side frames anymore. Also and this is the interesting bit, the new fadec did not arrive with a ferrite ring so I put one on....a purple one. Now this is something I did not know, I thought a ferrite ring was a ferrite ring, I didn't know they were rated differantly.
So I guess I will move the fadec, this must explain the shorter range with the new unit, it is however 3 inches away fron the reciever, but there are variables here to look at. I will call Wren and ask them about the ring asap.

Keep the ideas coming, it's all good stuff. :)

lperagallo
04-08-2007, 03:23 PM
Can't you solve the problems with a Spektrum DX-7? They are glitch free because of the frequency they run. I run one on a Bergen Gasser and have had no range issues.

Danyboy
04-08-2007, 07:21 PM
Hi, Iperagallo!

First of all, let me advise you, that here in europe, the 2,4Ghz-band is handled differently...
What you would call a good system is being sold here as a pure indoor transmitter. Why? Because of the power-output and the related regulations.
If you would try to fly a turbine with what you officially buy here...
I'd would strongly try to convince you to give me the heli as a present, before it's lying on the ground, spent in pieces... ;)

Second, glitch-free only as long as the source of the glitches does not operate in the same band of frequencies.
And such sources of interference usually do not appear on a finely tuned frequency, but are rather spread out over a band of frequencies.
And it does not really have to be that much of transmitting power on the glitch-source, as the bloke already wrote, other aspects like metal-objects, water etc, might gulp down the power you are transmitting.
With a lot of radio energy being sucked up, there's not much to arrive at the receiver, so it does not have to be much to overcome what normally would be enough.

On short distance, everything electrical transmits, even your watch.
In all possible frequencies. Which are being defined by the length of the leads or copper-bands on the print.

Therefore, just changing to a different system might not solve the problem, it might only mask it.

I ran a Eflite BladeCPPro for many hours glitch free.
Until the main-motor was wearing out and the collector started arching more than normal. Which was not a problem.
Until I had all of the receiver's antenna more or less hidden behind the motor when watched from the transmitter. Which wasn't a problem before, I've flown eights many times before.
Only both events combined lead to some strange itchings in the servos - which did not result in a crash, luckily...

When we only had PPM and PCM came up new, many guys thought it was glitch-free because of its operating principles.
It's not.
Same with Spektrum.
If something blasts enough radio-energy out, so the signals from your RX get drowned in them and the RX can't filter them anymore out against background noise, then as well the Spektrum will expirience lockout.
You can only claim that a Spektrum would be glitch-free if you can pin-point the source to the specific frequency-band.

As an advise from my side:
If glitches occur and they can't be traced to an "outside-source" like a fellow R/C-guy on the same frequency, then I would start to trace down the fault until you've found it. If the glitches go away by changing to Spektrum, you might have a clean reception at the moment, but you can be sure there is still a source of intereference built-in your heli. My question asks: When will the interference get big enough to even block out the Spektrum?

*Never* fly around with a risk on your neck, feeling safe that it is contained at the moment: It will bite you when you at least expect it.
It will bite hard.
Don't ask me why I know.
I just do. ;-)
I guess it's because I used to be an aircraft maintenance engineer.
But maybe my poor little SJM-400 can give you a definite answer why he went into lock-out... :arggg:

Cheers from Daniel, luckily withough any glitches or lockouts on his big-birds yet...

lperagallo
04-08-2007, 07:50 PM
Daniel,
I'm not sure about Europe, but here in the states, the 2.4GHZ frequency is a micro wave and is not effected by most RF generated by our aircraft. Spektrums system also uses two RX with short antennas (1.5 inches), so again you limit your exposure to locating near sources of interference. These radios are not effected by electrical noise or bearing noise and they communicate with a unique code so again the system is more glitch free. Since they share 80 channels and select the pair when the radio is turned on you don't have to worry about getting shot down by another radio.

I hope for your sake that the radio is available to you so you can enjoy worry free radio issues.

Lou

dave peers
04-09-2007, 06:35 PM
Daniel,
I'm not sure about Europe, but here in the states, the 2.4GHZ frequency is a micro wave and is not effected by most RF generated by our aircraft. Spektrums system also uses two RX with short antennas (1.5 inches), so again you limit your exposure to locating near sources of interference. These radios are not effected by electrical noise or bearing noise and they communicate with a unique code so again the system is more glitch free. Since they share 80 channels and select the pair when the radio is turned on you don't have to worry about getting shot down by another radio.

I hope for your sake that the radio is available to you so you can enjoy worry free radio issues.

Louboys boys boys !!!!!!
it does not matter were u are in the solar system 2.4 gig hz or 1.3 gig hz
a gig hz is a gig hz in any language (Electronically speaking)
MICRO WAVE boys micro wave

MarkD
04-09-2007, 06:56 PM
What alot peeps do not seem to understand is that from the Tx to the RX may be interference free but from the Rx to the servos, gyro esc etc or what's on your bird is not interference free

2.4Ghz may stop outside lockouts but if there is a problem on the heli then 2.4Ghz will not help - you'll still crash and burn

dave peers
04-09-2007, 07:28 PM
What alot peeps do not seem to understand is that from the Tx to the RX may be interference free but from the Rx to the servos, gyro esc etc or what's on your bird is not interference free

2.4Ghz may stop outside lockouts but if there is a problem on the heli then 2.4Ghz will not help - you'll still crash and burnat last some one who understands!!!!!! :lolol

flyinfool
04-10-2007, 11:12 AM
There are more of us that understand that the RF link is not the only place for interference to get in. :arggg:

lperagallo
04-10-2007, 12:38 PM
What alot peeps do not seem to understand is that from the Tx to the RX may be interference free but from the Rx to the servos, gyro esc etc or what's on your bird is not interference free

2.4Ghz may stop outside lockouts but if there is a problem on the heli then 2.4Ghz will not help - you'll still crash and burn

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. You servos are hard wired to the RX, so how does RF interfere with these. Bearing noise, speed controllers, bad motors, etc do not cause RF in the frequency range of a Spektrum, so they Can't cause a lock out. If you are talking about a servo going dead or a gryo falling off, I agree, but this thread is talking about lockouts and going into failsafe. The Spektrum eliminates this due to the frequency. No components on the heli generate RF in the 2.4GHZ range so it's unaffected as far as everything I have read on the subject. I'd appreciate it if you clarified your comment.

Lou

heliman53
04-10-2007, 01:08 PM
I have seen bad bearings generate noise which affected the servos directly causing a glitch very much like you get on a non PCM radio even though we were flying PCM at the time, base line is find the source of the interference and correct it anything else is just a bandaid. Craig B