Open Letter to Thunder Tiger, Align, Hirobo and others...

[spork]

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[Rogan]

I don't think for a moment that we can eliminate all risk. But I don't understand why anyone would fight against minimizing existing risks if it can be done easily.


http://www.darwinawards.com/

One word: evolution.

[spork]

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[LITHIUMSTATIC]

Flyinfool "What I was trying to highlight is that you or anyone else getting whacked was not due to a malfunction of any of the equipment."

I guess you didn't see what I wrote above. It is a fact that my friends Mini-Titan hot started due to malfunctioning equipment. It has hppened many times and we can't figure out why. It was also a very reall fact that it sucked really bad trying to unplug a heli that had a mind of it's own and would not respond to throttle hold. It will do this crazy stuff at any given random time and you have to unplug it to turn it off. :dontknow

[ghtracey]

If it happened more than once why is he still running that ESC? :)

[spork]

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[LITHIUMSTATIC]

If it happened more than once why is he still running that ESC? :)

Damn good question... It's a CC Phoenix 35 a reputable brand. We did update the firmware a couple of weeks ago. I will ask him if it's still doing it and make the suggestion to send it in if it is.

Thanks,

Jeremy

[flyinfool]

After thinking about this situation and your comments, I can see one possible way for a brushless ESC to hot start.
If you are running a bad PPM RX that is glitching all over it is possible for the glitch to send a low throttle signal to the ESC which would arm it and the next glitch at a higher throttle setting could then command power.

[AlanMcSwain]

I have to say Alan, if you have so little faith in the faceless ones that programmed your unseen code in the ESC, and you can't be sure its safe, well you shouldn't be flying. After all your chopper once in the air at full RPM is completely and totally under the control of unseen code programmed into your computer radio that could fail at any given time resulting in you losing control of your heli and killing someone. Odds on that? Slim. But hey, there's always the RF hit that causes your Rx to stop responding to your inputs, that is a very real issue, and more likely than a hotstart on an ESC. Or... how about mechanical failure in one of your collection of parts flying in loose formation? Maybe we should all change to metal ball-links so that they can't fail.

The hobby is inherently dangerous to some extent, you will never eliminate the risks. There are very real safety issues, I agree. But to be honest, I am more afraid of the guy flying next to me having a failure than his electronic equipment having one. Pilot error is still the biggest cause of accident and injury by a large margin.



Ok..there have been several posts like this and I have avoided responding to them hoping that we can focus more directly on the specific safety issue that I have spotlighted.

Basically, these posts are directed more at me personally and not the issue that I have raised. But that's ok too. I'm a big boy and can take it (and alot more).

Paraphrasing here:

"Alan, quit whining and be a man and step up to that big e-heli and plug it in!"

Answer: No. It is not as safe to start as a Nitro Heli. There is no "Hot Start" safety procedure like the "Head Grip 'O Death" for Nitros.

"Alan, quit being silly. Helis are inherently dangerous and there are lots of failures that are more likely to occur or dangerous than an e-heli Hot Start."

Answer: Agreed and never in contention. The difference between the e-Heli Hot Start scenario and all those other more likely events is PROXIMITY. You have to be right next to the heli to plug it in. All those other scenarios have the safety of distance factored in. And we don't stop flying because a known risk can't be eliminated, but we SHOULD and DO try to eliminate/manage risks that we can solve. I've shown a credible potential solution to this problem so let's move forward.

"Alan, An e-Heli hot start is not possible or it can only be created by Pilot Error."

Answer: While we may, as gentlemen, choose to dissagree if "glitch" hot starts really do or do not occur, why would you not like to see an extra layer of safety that would mitigate those Pilot Error created hot starts? Are Pilots who make mistakes somehow more deserving of a good "Blade Whipping"?

"Alan, If you don't trust our heli ESC/Radio/Gyro/Whatever software maybe you should consider switching over to scrapbooking as a hobby!"

Answer: I write software for a living and I actually do microcontroller programming for fun. This is a subject that I have some expertise in. In a perfect world, the software in the devices mentioned would be Open Source and we would all work on making it work better and safer together. The more "Intellectual Capital" (or Brains and Eyeballs) applied to any problem, the better. This is why Linux is a household word today. I have publically called on Colin Mill to release the original CSM 360 source code under the GPL. I have posted my opinion that Futaba needs to get out of the SW business and release an open source sw driven transmitter.

As for scrapbooking...One lunatic in the family is enough, thank you.

(Honey, if you read this, poking fun at your hobby is something ALL WE GUYS do. Really. No, I'm not making this up. Seriousl... Yes, dear, I'll edit the post.)

[spork]

You know Alan, I didn't respond to any of those comments either. But I will say I think some of those comments reflect poor logic and some reflect poor judgement (imo). What I find most entertaining are the comments about stepping up and being a big hairy man. We're talking about toy helicopters guys. This IS stamp collecting compared to any number of big hairy manly pursuits. If you want to come across all manly and impress the ladies I assure you this is not the hobby for you.

But yes, they can be dangerous. And there's no reason not to try and mitigate those dangers, because the danger is NOT an element of the enjoyment of the hobby for any sane person.

If you don't want such features on your heli, that's your business. But attacking a guy that's trying to make the hobby safer is irresponsible in my way of thinking.

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

You know Alan, I didn't respond to any of those comments either. But I will say I think some of those comments reflect poor logic and some reflect poor judgement (imo). What I find most entertaining are the comments about stepping up and being a big hairy man. We're talking about toy helicopters guys. This IS stamp collecting compared to any number of big hairy manly pursuits. If you want to come across all manly and impress the ladies I assure you this is not the hobby for you.

But yes, they can be dangerous. And there's no reason not to try and mitigate those dangers, because the danger is NOT an element of the enjoyment of the hobby for any sane person.

If you don't want such features on your heli, that's your business. But attacking a guy that's trying to make the hobby safer is irresponsible in my way of thinking.

Well said Spork!

[flyinfool]

"Alan, An e-Heli hot start is not possible or it can only be created by Pilot Error."

I was the one that made the comment about it not being possible.
After more input from others, I was also the one that pointed out the possibility of a glitch start.
I had an old brushed ESC once upon a time that required the throttle to be at idle for at least 2 seconds then full throttle for at least 2 seconds and then would arm when the throttle went back to idle. I would think that this would make a glitch very unlikely to arm the ESC, and it would be very easy to add to the software of brushless ESC's.

(Honey, if you read this, poking fun at your hobby is something ALL WE GUYS do. Really. No, I'm not making this up. Seriousl... Yes, dear, I'll edit the post.)

Now that is dangerous. :lolol

Sorry I couldn't resist.

[joehelicopter]

Best prevention is a real good pre flight check of the trans switch positions before you arm the ESC---I check the trans very thoroughly :Bang

[spork]

A good pre-flight is always a good idea. Like any plan however it's not perfect. In hang gliding possibly the most obvious thing to check is that you've hooked yourself in before jumping off the cliff. However, I've known people to launch unhooked. I stopped one guy from launching unhooked.

[HeliWife]

Quote:
(Honey, if you read this, poking fun at your hobby is something ALL WE GUYS do. Really. No, I'm not making this up. Seriousl... Yes, dear, I'll edit the post.)


Now that is dangerous. GOOD ONE!!

Sorry I couldn't resist.
_________________
Jeff Borowski

Jeff, you are wiser, and certainly have a greater instinct for self-preservation, than my husband. :roll:

And re HIS comment, "As for scrapbooking...One lunatic in the family is enough, thank you." At least with scrapbooking the ratio of PLANNING to do the hobby and SHOPPING for things related to the hobby versus ACTUAL time spent on the activity is maybe 50-50. With helis, based on my observations of Alan's patterns, it's about 99% prep/shop/setup/endless tinkering versus ONE PERCENT actual flying. Now who's the lunatic?? :lol:

[flyinfool]

Oh Oh, Someones in trouble now. :WOW

Hey, I resemble that ratio too. :roll:

[AlanMcSwain]

At least with scrapbooking the ratio of PLANNING to do the hobby and SHOPPING for things related to the hobby versus ACTUAL time spent on the activity is maybe 50-50. With helis, based on my observations of Alan's patterns, it's about 99% prep/shop/setup/endless tinkering versus ONE PERCENT actual flying. Now who's the lunatic??



But that is one-hell-of-a one percent!

You know you're right sweetie.

My hobby **really** should be more like yours.

From now on, when I have a heli finished, I'm going to proudly leave it on the coffee table for all to see and admire.

[sleddog7]

I'm with Alan and Lith! I still do keep one eye on the blades of my little Rex 450 and my ears open too. Yes I need 2 hands to plug-in and I somewhat wince every time I do it, it's ALL electronic and not mechanical.
My fear is --- what if the electronics in the ESC goes 'senile' or 'forgets' and lights up in soft-start to full power while I'm plugging in?.... All the while managing to keep all it's teeth on the main gear and risking my forearms or fingers :shock:

[HeliWife]

[quote]

You know you're right sweetie.

My hobby **really** should be more like yours.

From now on, when I have a heli finished, I'm going to proudly leave it on the coffee table for all to see and admire.

Well, this is not much of a threat. I see a whole lot of heli's around the house in various stages of assembly/disassembly (cf. "tinkering" in my post) and not a whole lot that could be deemed "finished." :roll: :wink:

[AlanMcSwain]

Well, this is not much of a threat. I see a whole lot of heli's around the house in various stages of assembly/disassembly (cf. "tinkering" in my post) and not a whole lot that could be deemed "finished."


Hey here's an idea. Take pictures of all these alleged "unfinished" helis and scrapbook them complete with funny captions. Then we can put that book on the coffee table in the front room and I'll put one of my finished helis on top of the book so the skids won't scratch the table!

Ahh...Sweet married harmony.

.

[PDK]

Alan,

I think your initiative is very admirable. As a recent heli convert who hot started their Twister 3D (with an analog brushed controller without arming sequence) I think the problem is equally applicable to smaller birds. Sure experienced flyers develop good starting habits; however, the average learner is often very nervous, which can lead to mistakes.

My thought (and one I will probably implement on my Twister 3D and now EP8) is to use parallel battery connections. One the normal Deans type power connection, and a second small connection with a small in-line fuse (maybe 1/2 amp). To power up the heli you would plug the small connector in which would enable and arm the ESC, IF something was wrong and the Motor started to run the small fuse would blow shutting the heli down. If all was ok (throttle hold on, throttle at 0) you could confidently (more confidently anyway) plug the main connection together.

Just a thought anyway.

Best regards
Phil

[Seeker]

Here's another device that may help also....

http://www.firmtronics.com/rc-products/throttlesafe.php

[Caleb Phillips]

Personally, I'm not too afraid of an electric hot start and fortunately, I've never had a hot start with my nitro birds. Anyhow, I couldn't help but chuckle at your post because it reminds me of setting up a mouse/rat trap. It's all o.k. until the spring is back but once it's set, you're scared shit-less that you'll set it off on your fingers. I understand what you mean though. With a nitro, if for some reason whatsoever the carb is fully open, you'll atleast hear a deep hollow sound from the muffler when starting.

[madwacked]

My TRex 600 will not spool up instantly, someone told me I could change the programming in the ESC to make it more instant, but even when I go from nornal to idle up on the ground it takes the chopper some time to spool up, does not speed up anywhere near as fast as my nitro. I do not think that additional safety is bad, but I honesty do not think my 600 would instantly ignite.

Evan

TRex 600
Raptor .30

[Helio Addict]

Skydive and die.....you knew the risk and took it.
Race motorcycles and die....knew the risk and took it.
Driving to work is way more dangerous statisticly than flying R/C helicopters.
I could go on and on.....
I now fly helicopters and I consider this to be WAY SAFER than many of my past hobbies. If my helicopter kills me in the process then that is just the risk I took.
Go fly and have fun!