Open Letter to Thunder Tiger, Align, Hirobo and others...

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

Has there been any vendor development in this space since I dropped of the face of the earth?

Nope...

You know... I've been a slacker in the safety area when comes to this topic. I need to do something as close as i get to my helis when plugging in and arming the ESC.

[warpspeed]

Jeez didn't you guys ever have Sea Monkeys(tm) when you were kids?
When they grow up they'll dance right out and plug your packs in for you! Eh, so ya lose a head or two...Damn things breed like rabbits.

No, seriously. Dress the wife up like the Michelin man and have her do it. Or better, the mother-in-law.:flamedevil

Failing that, there's sure to be a bum (that's politically correct right? Better than lazy homeless bastidges) or two lying around willing to make a quick buck.

Wait a minute. How about a long lead on your pack and esc, something like a ten foot extension on both. You can stand back and watch the pretty spark knowing you're safe and sound from any harm.
Well, at least until you lift off and wrap that sucker around your neck....
Hey, there's no cure for stupid!

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

Jeez didn't you guys ever have Sea Monkeys(tm) when you were kids? When they grow up they'll dance right out and plug your packs in for you! Eh, so ya lose a head or two...Damn things breed like rabbits.

I wish I had Sea Monkeys(tm) plug my pack in for me that would be awesome for sure.

Failing that, there's sure to be a bum (that's politically correct right? Better than lazy homeless bastidges) or two lying around willing to make a quick buck.

"a bum or two willing to make quick a buck" ???? Right.....

Wait a minute. How about a long lead on your pack and esc, something like a ten foot extension on both. You can stand back and watch the pretty spark knowing you're safe and sound from any harm. Well, at least until you lift off and wrap that sucker around your neck.... Hey, there's no cure for stupid!

It's ok you don't understand the full extent of why this would be on my mind EVERY time I plug in a 10s pack or my 6s G5.....

Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect. :hug: :thumbup:

Moving Forward in this discussion......

[warpspeed]

Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect.

First word is FUN.

It was just a joke.

Sheesh.:dontknow

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

First word is FUN.

It was just a joke.

Sheesh.:dontknow

:thumbup:

[MiniBichus]

Got whacked once by my brushless converted 4#3 / DX7, it went straight into my face... when I was I leaning on to work on the heli, the neck strap hit the throttle full power, the sucker had a lot of punch, fortunately, it was only a 4#3 and not a 450 with a non-slowstart ESC. That day I learnt why throttle hold is in the radio! Some of the better 450 ESCs have slow start built in and that should be enogh time to grab the head with your hand and power down the heli. Now, if it spools up @ full throttle on a 450 it will strip the main gear but it will still go on at full blast. Been there, done that. (The original RC-Tek 35A ESC didn't have a slow start/governor mode, so after this event, I switched to a Jazz40 and I have never had a problem with the heli hot-starting on me. BTW, I caught it and stopped the main rotor couple of times when I accidentally started it by touching the throtle. The Jazz is great b/c as soon as it senses a locked rotor it stops power. I guess you get what you pay for in ESCs, and in safety. If you want safety, then probably a smart thing to buy a better ESC for your E-Helicopter.
However, all those times were my fault, the better ESC made it possible to do something after my error, but with the POS one I had at first, I probably would've been hurt. Free ESC vs. a 170 dollar ESC? Well, the real question is, are your fingers/arms/head/legs worth those 170 dollars? They sure are to me!

MB.

[Skarn]

Two words......Soft Start!

With soft start programmed into the ESC, even if you do have a "hot start", it will SLOWLY start to spin up giving you plenty of time to unplug the battery!

I don't fly any electric helis without soft start. With my Raptor 50, I REALLY miss soft start and wish I had it!

Skarn

[Reds]

I've had glow hot starts and they are startling, but that friction clutch just can't win over my instant death grip on the head. Why? Because my hand was already there, holding it.

There is no equivalent "when all else fails" safety procedure with electrics. You double check all your switches and sticks, you step up to the heli like a man, and you use BOTH hands to plug in the ESC to the battery while you and your arms and head are in close proximity to the unfurled blades. From that point forward **YOU ARE GAMBLING**.

You are trusting that code within the ESC that you did not write and have not, nor can not examine is going to execute flawlessly.

You are investing belief in the infallability of the engineers and programmers who designed that ESC, people whom you do not know, have never met and likely could never identify.

You are hugging a high tech teddy bear named Silicon Oxide, hoping that it's couple of micron thick insulating layer dividing the forces of positive and negative within the array of HexFets will continue, please continue, to hold.

Deny it if you like, but you have just joined the church of "But It Worked Just Fine Last Time".

Lith is the smart one here. He understands the potential danger and has taken steps to mitigate it. OK, it took one pissed off Blade CP to show him the light, but he still gets applause from me!! :woohoo
Coming from another guy who writes software and designs hardware, I TOTALLY agree.

But actually let me take it even one step further and point out that the guy who wrote the code in your ESC is probably some 23 year old Taiwanese kid who has written this code while on break from his latest World Of Warcraft game.

He has no awareness or care about the safety aspects of his code. We'd all like to believe that some grizzled software engineer is meticulously ensuring that all of the code in our helis works perfectly every time...but that just AINT'T the way it is!!!

[MiniBichus]

I think you´re reading too much into this matter. Soft start solves this problem, yes there is always a chance it wont work, but it is not like the code to make the ESC safety work is the same, as complicated I mean, as writting the simulation model for the F-22 Raptor.

MB.

Coming from another guy who writes software and designs hardware, I TOTALLY agree.

But actually let me take it even one step further and point out that the guy who wrote the code in your ESC is probably some 23 year old Taiwanese kid who has written this code while on break from his latest World Of Warcraft game.

He has no awareness or care about the safety aspects of his code. We'd all like to believe that some grizzled software engineer is meticulously ensuring that all of the code in our helis works perfectly every time...but that just AINT'T the way it is!!!

[shield]

Regardless of any safety feature "safety" begins and ends with yourself and how careful and responsible you choose to be with such a machine.

Nothing is 100% and accidents will happen, I'm not going to sit around and worry about "what if". I feel things are fine the way they are so long as you educate yourself, use common sense and act responsible.

[Kindling Maker]

I run Heavy equipment, an inherently dangerous profession, and to top it off I do it in a war zone, that does add to the risks somewhat. As it is I have almost 700,000 man hours with no accidents or loss time incident. Safety starts when you get into the car to go to the field, or walk out to fly in the front yard. NOTHING can inhibit all accidents. Physical measures are the best way to stop accidents from happening, Mechanical measures are a secondary. It is our responsibility to ensure safety, not the manifacturers. I am not busting on anyone, I am just stating a fact.

[perfeet]

Do you somehow figure I am safer spotting a pro pilot doing a 70 MPH hurricane, with a hopped up 90 sized glow motor, spinning 710mm carbon fiber blades at 2000+ RPM, 25 feet in front of me?!?!?! Compared to a possible "e-hot start" P-L-E-A-S-E ! ! ! :lol:

Excactly! :thumbup:

Flying the heli (or watching it) is MUCH more dangerous.
Follow the safety rules when starting up and flying the heli.

Our helicopters are infact very dangerous (and sometimes I am actually surprised that they are allowed ;);))

But part of the thrill with flying helicopters are that it is powerfull and strong, and controlling the machine (Of course it is more thrilling to try a T-Rex 700 compared to a Honeybee CP)

If you look for zero risk, you can take up knitting. No...Not that either, because you can stab yourself to death on the pins :P

[ShinOBIWAN]

If you look for zero risk, you can take up knitting. No...Not that either, because you can stab yourself to death on the pins :P

Heli's are tame compared to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P46o5ysyS1Q

HARDCORE :Bang

[R1R 7humbs]

If it's a heli like the 600E then it shouldn't be able to hit you with a lot of force very quickly. Even though the motor has a ton of pwoer and torque with a 6 to 12s setup the heli only weighs around 7lbs. So all that torque can't be applied to the blades because the heli frame will spin because there's not enough traction to offset the torque.

Aside from taking as many precautions as possible it's probably a good idea to make sure the leading edge of the rotor blade is right up against you so it can't build momentum. Also, I think the main gears are likely to strip before the heli could over power you... if you got a hold of it in time.

[ShinOBIWAN]

The thing to remember is that many of us have hidden repressed ninja talents. When faced with a tough situation these age old instincts kick in and we become super human. Trust me this is not BS.

If the blades started up, in an instant I could cut the heli in half with a karate chop and kill any one that saw me do it.

This thread is stupid so gibberish like this sits nicely. :badair:

[Pinecone]

As it is I have almost 700,000 man hours with no accidents or loss time incident.

WOW, you must be REALLY old. That means you have worked 10 hours per day, 365 days per year, for 191 YEARS. :)

BTW the normal rule for accidents is 1 - 2% unavoidable, i.e. acts of God. 10 - 15% unsafe conditions (mechanical) and the rest unsafe acts of people.

[jmmccain]

How about a small set of extra connectors with a long set of leads? Connect to each side at the heli, back away, and then make the remote connection. If it starts up hot, the fuse blows.Once powered up and "safely" in throttle hold, approach, make the main connection, and remove the remote leads. The only weight added is the wiring and two small connectors.

The fuse also protects the small wires and fingers. The light indicates that power is applied and the fuse hasn't blown.

[RappyChappy]

I have never owned an electric heli but reading this thread with interest. I live in the UK and have BMFA insurance (3rd party) for my nitro. If i had an electric with a safety mechanism as many of you are suggesting, and a 3rd party was injured during starting up, how would that affect a claim being made? I would need to prove that the mechanism was in place and failed, or , the 3rd party could say that i forgot to apply the safety mechanism. Would the device need to be checked periodicly by an authorised person on behalf of the insurance company(BMFA)? Point being. don`t forget that safety devices can cause problems with insurance claims.

[StringfellowHawk]

To heck with all of the fancy switches and 50' battery extensions. I am going to install one of these quality safety devices on my Trex 500.

[rockjock3]

I run Heavy equipment, an inherently dangerous profession, and to top it off I do it in a war zone, that does add to the risks somewhat. As it is I have almost 700,000 man hours with no accidents or loss time incident. Safety starts when you get into the car to go to the field, or walk out to fly in the front yard. NOTHING can inhibit all accidents. Physical measures are the best way to stop accidents from happening, Mechanical measures are a secondary. It is our responsibility to ensure safety, not the manifacturers. I am not busting on anyone, I am just stating a fact.

Wow, 700,000 man hours, that's like 159+ years you have had to work straight 12 hour days with no days off. :YeaBaby:

On the other hand I totally agree with your view on safety. The only way you can make it totally safe is to not do it at all. I am all for safety, but I don't want to pay an extre $30-100 dollars on my helis for a safety device that only a handfull of people feel they need.

[saltyzoo]

Like I have said earlier on the "Lipolys are Dangerous" thread. I know of, and hear news from, ALL of team Flightpower... and I have NEVER have I heard of and ESC going bad and hot starting. We are taking thousands, if not tens of thousands, of flights. And even if it did... I am not exactly sure how it is any different from a glow or gas hot starting as it would be a lot of "no fun"

Well, I only had 15 minutes of flight time in this hobby when it happened to me. The ESC on my trex 450 went south and when I plugged in the heli and it spooled up to max within seconds. Thank goodness I managed to not get hit before the ESC cooked itself completely and shut down.

I'm not sure how having a heli spinning full speed doing the chicken dance inches away from you could be considered no big deal.

And soft start doesn't help much when the problem is a defective ESC.

[Pinecone]

That's why I plug in and keep my hands no the conenctors for a second or tow. That way I can quickly disconnect it.

But to me, the simpliest way of dealing with this is to put a clutch, like a nitro, in the heli. That way, if you can grab the head before it spools up too much (of course it is a bit tough to plug in one handed) the clutch will slip. Just like hot starting a nitro.

[saltyzoo]

I just got my October edition of RC Heli mag.

In their article about Thunder Tiger's upcoming heli there is this section:


SAFETY
With the beginner in mind safety is a key feature of the Innovator. Arming the helicopter takes a few precise steps to eliminate the risk of a premature spin up. An auto cut-off feature will turn off the helicopter if it's at rest for a certain amount of time. The special battery is hard cased and has built in safety circuitry.
<snip>
The transmitter cannot be turned off without the helicopter's power being turned off.
<snip>
Maybe they read this thread Alan. ;)

[AlanMcSwain]

I know Jeff Fassbinder did.

[kaon]

(I'm a newbie, just registered because of this topic)

Prolly not worth much coming from a noob, but I generally agree with AlanMcSwain.

I would like to see innovation in preventing accidents in electric models due to ESC / radio malfunctions and/or human error.

I have had a few different incidents with the Esky coaxials where the motors ran at full throttle while the Tx was on, and at lowest throttle. Such that I had to get a second person to disconnect the battery for me while I was holding the model.
And this was two samples, one 37MHz, and one 2.4GHz.

Some people seem to be indifferent, and a small minority say that further measures are not necessary at all.
Don't we accept that ESC's and Rx's and other devices do malfunction (or suffer inteference)?
I can't agree with the leave-the-risk-in-the-sport-camp, but I wld support their right to choose not to use those devices, as much as the risk is confined to themselves.

Saying that "safety is the responsibility of the user" is not a good reason for why safety devices shouldn't be developed. It is true that correct procedures will prevent some (most?) accidents, but there are factors outside the control of even a perfect user. Sure there exist some round-about ways to make sure (long wires, move motor away, remove blades), but we want better ways.

Among skydivers, are there still people who choose not to use an AAD? are there people who did not support the innovation because they thought the riskiness of the sport should not be reduced? I'm sure there were such people during the early days of AAD.