Open Letter to Thunder Tiger, Align, Hirobo and others...

[AlanMcSwain]

Good post and good attitude Kaon.

I too have trouble understanding people who poo-poo reasonable safety concerns, especially when they slather it with a bunch of macho-nonsense.

Grow up. Demand real, designed-in safety. Not "Safety-Theater" like soft-start ESCs, but real mechanical gearing interlocks or swing-aways.

<End Rant>

[AverageJoe]

Having a problem with HOT STARTS?:arggg:
Protect it with "The CLUB".;)

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=1096&pictureid=7768

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

Now that's funny.:lol:

Having a problem with HOT STARTS?:arggg:
Protect it with "The CLUB".;)

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=1096&pictureid=7768

[rdlohr]

Now that's funny.:lol:

So is his avatar!
http://www.helifreak.com/image.php?u=34293&dateline=1191635763 (http://www.helifreak.com/member.php?u=34293)


LOL!
Rick

[AlanMcSwain]

...Well...I've been demanding a mechnical interlock, but I never thought someone would take me pretty much literaly!

Funny pic!

[kaon]

Turning off your Tx before Rx - what should happen in a 2.4GHz system?
I just created a new thread on rcgroups (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=914238) about this use case. Forgive me for this dup.

As a beginner who just got back into RC helis thru the Esky coaxials (one each of 2.4GHz and 37MHz), I was sold on 2.4GHz as a solution to the problem of RC models gong beserk due to interference whenever the Tx was switched off before the Rx. (or go out of range, or interference with Tx's)

I am now setting up a MiniTitan (stock ACE-brand ESC and motor) with Spektrum DX7 and AR7000.
When I do the Tx-off test, the motor immediately spools to full speed!
Is there a setting I can change in the Spectrum or ACE electronics, anything would be more sensible than going full throttle on signal loss.

EDIT: First 2 replies on RCGroups have pointed me to check how I bound the radio. Failsafe is supposed to be memorized by the Rx as the positions during binding. Will try.

EDIT2:
Rebinding with zero throttle worked.
But I want to ask what does everyone else choose as failsafe settings?
If the heli is on the ground, then zero throttle is best.
If the heli is in the air, then some throttle and some pitch might help it crash more softly... so what should we choose?

[Lymph]

Zero throttle is your only option.

Bind it with zero throttle and leave it there.

If you bind it with more then zero throttle in the event of siganl loss and a crash you will burn out your ESC because its trying to turn the motor but it can't. Thats why you flick throttle hold in a crash, to make sure theres absolutly no throttle input.

[mrivers]

Bind it at 0 throttle. Spinning blades never crash softly.

As far as setting the pitch, the AR7000 only has a failsafe for the throttle, Loss of signal will cause no change in any output from the rx except for the throttle.

[AlanMcSwain]

Once these e-helis have a simple, obvious, easy to verify motor swing away feature, the complexities of radio programming and the many sources of electric hot starts become a MANAGED RISK.

I repeat my call to the manufacturers and especially to any current designers to build Motor-Swing-Away safety into your designs, especially on higher wattage models.

Alan

[AlanMcSwain]

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=83625

This accident could have been prevented if the heli had been equipped with a Swing-Away motor mount like I have described.

If the Swing-Away motor mount design was incorporated into our electric heli's, your start up take-off procedure would look like this:

1) Swing out Motor from away from the maingear to the SAFE position.
2) Verify no motor engagement by spinning the maingear or head in the clockwise direction (looking from the top).
3) Power up Transmitter, Set throttle.
4) Connect Battery, keeping fingers away from motor pinion.
5) Test cyclic and tail servo response via the transmitter.
6) Test throttle point engagement. Zero the throttle when done.
7) Carry heli to take off point, set down on ground.
8) Holding the head firmly with the left hand, Swing the motor toward the maingear to the FLY position.
9) Let go of the head and retreat to a safe piloting distance from the heli and begin spoolup and take off.

[Skarn]

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=83625

This accident could have been prevented if the heli had been equipped with a Swing-Away motor mount like I have described.


It could also have been prevented by proper startup procedures. He admits he forgot to hit throttle hold. He also didn't have soft-start enabled.

You can have all the safety features in the world, but if you don't follow the proper sequence that takes advantage of them, you will have issues.

Even with a swing-away motor mount this could have happened. How you might ask? The same way this accident happened....he could have forgot to engage the mount in the SAFE position.

Skarn

[rdlohr]

Soft start is the best safety feature we have. Enable it and it protects you through most mistakes!

Rick

[AlanMcSwain]

Good comments.

Alot of us experienced guys have problems recalling just how complicated our first setups seemed to be and how easy it was to make mistakes. Fortunately for me those were mostly on glow fuel Raptor 30s and 50s. Expecting a newbie going it alone to even understand the concept of throttle hold, much less program it into most modern budget radios correctly the first time is a bit of a stretch IMHO.

The Swing-Away motor safety design has the following advantages:

1) Transmitter Programming mistake independant.
2) ESC config mistake independant.
3) Transmitter bump independant.
4) ESC power fet failure independant.

Yes, any safety item can be bypassed or ignored by the wreckless, but the easier it is to use, the greater use it will get.

Good safety is simple safety.

Alan

[bloftin]

I agree with Greg Alderman, I do not believe additional safety devices are necessary. And would they "prevent" an accident?.?.?.? The best tool for accident prevention is YOU. Exercise diligence; (1) Program your ESC for a SOFT START, (2) Make sure your throttle hold is ACTIVATED., (3) Check your throttle stick position, (4) check your idle up functions and make sure your in "normal mode" (5) Plug up and step back (6) Memorize your ESC conformation beeps (they let you know how your ESC is programed) (7) With the transmitter on the ground outside the rotor span attach the canopy, pick up your transmitter and fly.

[RCSavager]

Maybe I have a unique point of view but I believe in "natural selection" and "cause & effect" lessons. Meaning that if you eat too many marbles you don't get to grow up and have little idiots of your own. Also, "PAIN AFFECTS MEMORY!". If you plug in your bird and you have the throttle set to go like a rapped ape then you should be proud of your little heli for giving it all it had like you told it to. If your mistake hurts then you learn twice as much from it. Bottom line = the likelihood that you'll die from your mistake is very slim. Image the guys that jump out of perfectly good airplanes as a hobby. Mistakes in this hobby will hurt your wallet more than people (thank god). I'd rather manufactures concentrate on doing what we want em to do better than yesterday and to continue to kick out new goodies for us to blow our paychecks on. Hey, it keeps us outta bars ladies. :thumbup:

I guess you can sum up my view by saying I think that the safety features we have at our disposal is enough. If you want a 'switch' then buy one. But I'm happy with what we can buy now to keep from dropping a tool on your Tx and having your pride and joy beat the snot out of itself and everything within 10 feet. All due respect to all but I'm content with our options now. :noteworthy

[warpspeed]

:rolling:rolling:rolling

[Kiwi of Nitro]

I don't think the majority of people would opt for any "safety equipment" on their heli if it added weight.. Sorry safety freaks, but I know I wouldn't want anything extra on my heli that didn't help it's performance. ;)

I've been spinning up my heli on my work table with the rotor path maybe a foot from my face to check the tracking... (I hold the vertical stabilizer with two fingers, that's it)

I did that with my buddy in the room and he tripped over himself to get out the door. LOL :P

Maybe I'm not as crazy about safety as most.


I've hovered right by my head some times with my 450.

I've never taken a step backwards no matter what happens, I just focus and stay in control. Always turns out better that way. ;)


I treat the TH toggle like the safety on my rifle, just habit when I land.

[jimgrant]

" I've been spinning up my heli on my work table with the rotor path maybe a foot from my face to check the tracking... (I hold the vertical stabilizer with two fingers, that's it) "

If you'd ever seen a heli throw a blade, for whatever reason, even a brand new blade could have a flaw in it.. you would never take these risks.. I value my eyesight

[Kiwi of Nitro]

Spinning up my heli on my work table is a calculated risk, I make the decision knowing there is a possibility of a blade releasing and stabbing me. However, this possibility appears so slim, I'm confident in the feathering bolts, and blade retaining bolts enough that I decide to do it anyway. If it fails and it kills me, I just hope nobody I know is clueless enough to decide to make a lawsuit out of it.

Here's what I say, I don't think the manufacturer should have any sort of liability for their helis whatsoever! :dontknow

It's common sense, when rotor blades are spinning at 2400 RPM it's not a good idea to stick your hand, head or nads in their path... I hope you already knew that. :)

I live in the US, all you people who say the US is full of senseless morons who need the government to protect them from themselves (by banning lawn-darts ETC) Are absolutely correct, you're lucky you don't live here.

Here's an article to pretty much sum up the country I live in, if you think your country is better please tell me which one it is. :)

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28331

IMO:
It doesn't matter if people hover their raptor 90 in their living room, that just says their brave. Anything risky they want to do with their heli doesn't say anything bad about the person... They're not a POS until they try and blame the manufacturer or anyone other than themselves for their heli hurting them.

The families that sue a playground becasue the child got hurt on it or the people who sue over hot coffee and everything in between. Those types of people are scum of the earth IMO.

[Kindling Maker]

+1

[RCSavager]

Now you see the power of mother nature and natural selection. If you eat too many marbles as a child you don't get to grow up and have little idiots of your own. Sucks for the parents of the idiots but at the end of the day the world has one less idiot to deal with. Tha'ts nature taking out the trash.

Just my $.02

[Kiwi of Nitro]

Now you see the power of mother nature and natural selection. If you eat too many marbles as a child you don't get to grow up and have little idiots of your own. Sucks for the parents of the idiots but at the end of the day the world has one less idiot to deal with. That's nature taking out the trash.

Just my $.02

+1 Haha, I couldn't agree more!

At least with insurance health care, my taxes aren't going to save the marble eaters... :lol:

[pvogel]

I set up a high current arming switch between my LiPo and the ESC/BEC, just a little Anderson connector on the hot lead with the other end of the anderson having a wire loop from Pos to Neg (you can even buy these things) -- I can arm my TRex 500 with one hand, but I don't -- in the event of a hot start I can yank that anderson loop a lot faster than I can a Deans connector.

[pvogel]

Has anyone thought about how to adapt a pin flag arming switch (pin-removed = armed) to the high-current application of electric helis? I was thinking about how you could have a normally closed relay where the pin being in-place opens the relay. Anyone have suggestions for the relay to use? It would need to be lightweight and relatively small...

Peter+

[Kindling Maker]

You could do it with a double short, Once you removed the Flag, it would open the second short and create a full circuit, like the first window and door security systems, very easy to bypass.