Axe CP separations and setup journal

[Ray K.]

C R-

I'm using some ElectriFly (Great Planes) LiPos that I got from Tower Hobbies. They're competitively priced, and their size and weight is just about par-for-the-course when it comes to 3s LiPos. I've had no trouble with them at all. The nice thing about these is that they come with a Dean's Ultra plug already soldered up, and they're wired for balance charging. If you're willing to spend $5 or $10 extra per battery, it's just about impossible to go wrong with Flight Power packs. My roommate is using Thunder Power packs in his Honey Bee King V2, and he really likes them. I'm pretty sure that they come at a similar price point to the Flight Powers.

As far as the other numbers associated with the pack, try to get at least 15C packs. I use 1250 mAh bricks (literally), but most guys like to use 900-ish packs to save weight. 20C is certainly overkill for an Axe, and I think that anything bigger than 1300+ mAh will be so heavy that you'll lose collective performance.

On another note....

IT F*CKING SNOWED HERE TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!! And on my day off, too! I was so excited to finally get out and fly for real (it's been MONTHS), and it was SNOWING!!!!! To boot, it was really windy and about 35°F too. What a disappointment.... guess I'll just have to wait. It especially sucks because it was sunny and 65° with a warm and mild westerly breeze on Friday. Damnit.... the helicopter gods have not been cooperative with me so far. This summer had better have some really great weather!

I'm so stoked- I've been flying on the sim all winter, and I must say that I think I'm getting pretty good. I can hover in all orientations, most basic aerobatics are second-nature, and I'm even doing some intermediate 3D stuff on the sim with no trouble. I can't wait to get my 'Rex and FrankenAxe out and really fly the crap out of them! I think it's the sound I miss most... pulling out of a dive with some back elevator and full collective.... GOD I LOVE IT!


-Ray

[markind]

Hi Ray!

Yep, mo money flows into the HMX tidy bowl... :D

I got the microheli swash on order too. Also Don's Belt Mod kit should be here next week. Clever that teflon strip down the tail boom!

I am going in for it because I am pretty sure I'll be able to fly my FrankenAxe well once all the mechanicals are dialed. I had 5 awesome flights on my TREX yesterday - dead calm and warm here - and I really opened her up and blazed around with authority. It looked so good, you'd almost think I knew what I was doing... :D

And thinking about the parts cost... well, I'm a 6-figger enginameer - if I was to charge hourly for the time I have put into this project... egadsss$$$ we're in the soup line...

[Edwinssiv]

Well Gents...The Grandson of Fraken Axe has had a mishap......On Saturday I went to the park to fly and was having a blast hovering around some slow FF...and then I decided to go into idle up to do some more...unfortunately I had my pitch settings wrong and my poor GSoFA came down hard into the wet grass...no big damage...broke landing gear and stripped a servo...so I replaced them and was flying again...but tonight I was hovering around the rec room and the heli started piro'ing rapidly...I set it down and nothing seemed out of order...so I spooled up again and was hovering for a few minutes and then it started again!!!! This time I came down but it tilted and broke a tail blade :( More parts...
The good news is...I received my Black Hawk 450 today!!!!! :YeaBaby:I have charged all 3 batteries and I have hovered one of them already! OMG! What a nice heli! I am very pleased with it...great job on Ka-Planes on setting it up :thumbup:...it flew perfectly out of the box! Now I need to transfer it over to my DX6i and put the 401 on it! I hope I don't screw anything up...lol

[Ray K.]

Edwin-

Sounds to me like the GSoFA (you have no idea how much of a kick I get out of this shit) has a tail motor that's about to die. Might also be the tail motor ESC or a combination of the two, so order parts accordingly. Such are the woes of dual-motor helis.... so maybe I'll do that belt mod after all. The $100 it's going to take to do it is a whopping 5% of the cost of getting a nitro .50 airborne, and I promised my better half that I'd wait until at least this Christmas before I buy another heli.... I didn't say a damn word about modifying the crap out of my existing helis though! I'll have to get those 910 mAh Lipos too, though.... a few more bucks and a dramatic re-wiring of the FA-Sr., and I'll be in business! I think if I put the ESC up front and the Rx in back it might be okay... and maybe some nice digital servos too.... okay, I'm getting carried away again.

Time to get back on the sim....

-Ray

[Edwinssiv]

Good Morning Ray...you really are an early bird aren't you?
I have the belt mod on the GSoFA...I know the gain was set too high now...I went and looked it over and did a little testing..after my crash I only did a quick replace, I did not check everything. I found I had some movement with the tail boom, creeping in slowly, which in turn caused me to have the belt come loose which I was compensating for with the gain, I found all this, corrected it and the gain was too high on the Tx...so I need to get new rotor blades....I am changing out my gyro on this one and going to put in the cheapie Esky gyro I have...so more adjusting :arggg: I knew I was going to do this when the BH 450 came so I don't know why I put the 401 on this bird any way...but any way...it's all good.
I hovered 3 battery packs with the BH 450 last night and I am a very happy camper! :woot I have them all charged up and ready to go fly before I go to work this morning...In comparison to the Axe...this heli is easy to fly! Not nearly as twitchy as the Axe....and since I learned on the Axe...I feel more comfortable with this heli already :happyd

[markind]

Belt Mod! Belt Mod! Belt Mod! Belt Mod!

Despite the mishap, I am dying to get in my Belt Mod into the SoFA

[Edwinssiv]

Over all I have been extremely pleased with the belt mod! It has taken some tweaking to get it set up right...but well worth it!!!!!!!!
So hopefully the winds will go away this weekend and I will get to fly both of my helis!
:banana

[Ray K.]

Edwin-

I'm not an early bird!!!! When I post, I'm still up- I work second shift.

Sorry about the whole incorrect problem diagnosis bit- brainfart, I guess. I forgot you had the belt mod. What kind of tweaking has it needed to get it set up? Is the kit based on TRex parts, or what? Post pics if you would... I'm interested, but I need more info before I decide.

Thanks!

-Ray

[Edwinssiv]

I had a feeling you might actually be getting home from work.
As for the tweaking...I have never had a belt driven tail prior to this upgrade...so I had to learn the right belt tightness, tightening the rotor blades correctly, dialing in the gyro, making sure the boom was real tight so I did not get movement, making sure the teflon plate is in the right position after working on the tail, making sure the belt is well lubed, things like that.
On another note...I moved the key tech gyro from my BH to the Axe last night and now have a pretty good set up. I am really aware of how twitchy and light the Axe is compared to the BH...the Axe is much harder to hold in one place than the BH. But the Axe is now flying well and I hope to fly more this weekend with both birds...I have much more confidence in the Axe with the belt driven tail and the gyro set up correctly.
I will get you some pictures tonight Ray after work...no time this morning as I was hovering around dialing in the Axe. The winds are howling outside this morning so no flying outside for me today I guess :roll:

[Edwinssiv]

Sorry Ray that I did not get the pictures up for you...I worked later than expected last night and the honey do's (still paying for my BH 450 ;)) kept me distracted for a few hours...I will get them up later today for you though as I am off of work today.
Ed

[Edwinssiv]

Here you go Ray...the pictures of the upgrade
Let me know if you want other angles :thumbup:
I crashed the axe fairly hard this morning and bent the feathering spindle again...so I brought it home and replaced it and went to test it in the rec room again and now I think I bent the tail shaft as well....I was having problems with the tail not wanting to hold...it did not appear to be the gyro because it reacted correctly. When I moved the tail with the controls from side to side though the movement was as if it was grabing on the tail shaft...so I have to look at that later.
I flew my Black Hawk a lot today! It did great in the breeze and the gusts that we were getting. So the Axe may become a shelf queen for a while...I just can not see putting much more money into it right now. The BH is so stable and flys fantastic....I was flying all over the small park near my house today. Hopefully tomorrow I can get a couple of battery packs in before the predicted wind starts up :)
I am definately addicted :smokin:

[Ray K.]

Very nice!

That doesn't look like a TRex tailcase to me... I wonder what it is. Where exactly did you order it from, and are replacement parts like tailbooms and whatnot readily available? That's one of my only nagging questions about this mod... when I crash and need to replace stuff, am I going to have to wait a month before I'm in the air again?

And how do you like the B/H head? Did it wake up the cyclic at all? When compared to the 'Rex, the cyclic on the ACP is SSSLLLLLLOOOOOOOWWWWWW- even with full mechanical swashplate deflection. In fact, the dead cyclic on the ACP has been the cause of more than one crash for me. The problem with that is that even with all the mods I've done with the FA-Sr., it's still really only good for circuits and the occasional stall-turn. The cyclic is so slow that I'm afraid to even attempt barrel rolls and loops any more. I've done them with the ACP before, but it was certainly a "pucker" experience. I don't need- or even want- it to snap over like the 'Rex does, but more cyclic authority would be welcome. I swear I have enough time to eat a sandwich before the FA-Sr. will complete an upright-to-inverted roll... flips are worse. The only good thing that comes out of that is the fact that it forces you to learn good collective management.

The pics were good, but can you get a good detail shot of the belt's entry into the tailboom on the fuse end? Don't take your gyro off if you don't have to, I just want to see that part too.

Thanks dude!

-Ray

[Edwinssiv]

No problem Ray...The Bell-Hiller upgrade is awesome! Instant responce to inputs...really makes the Axe easier to control! The tail mount and idler block are custom made by Don at freestyle Hobby. The only parts not available are the idler block and the tail mount...those would have to be ordered from Freestyle Hobby....but every thing else is Trex parts. The boom is just an aluminum arrow shaft and it can be replaced with the Helimax part or even the knitiing needle mod. The rotor end would need to be flattened ever so slightly because there is a teflon insert that goes in there that keeps the belt separated..I highligted that on the picture, so that rules out using the carbon fiber tail booms. I also showed the screw that tightens the idler bracket to the tail boom for you. The first 3 pictures are from Freestyle Hobby of the idbler block it self. This and the tail mount is the main reason I went with Don and his mod, so I did not have to fabricate these myself. The shipping time was fast! I received parts within 7 days of shipping..total time was only 14 days and that was with back order of a part. Don was great to work with! Also you can see I used small bolts from Radio Shack the go through the frame because the screws with Helimax are useless and easily strip in the frame...this allows me to tighten the frame better.

The only problem I still have with the Axe is it is too light to fly in much wind. That is what caused me to crash yesterday...I was just coming in for a landing, wind gust and the heli tilted and I struck the blades against the ground. I have none of that problem with the larger Black Hawk....it did fantastic in the breezes which were only 5-7 mph...the Axe was thrown around and with one gust I thought I was going to have it blown away....carried up and away from me fast! That is the reason I use the Spektrum 6300 Rx on it so I have longer range.

[markind]

Great info and pics!! Thanks! My Belt Mod kit from Don should be here in a few days. I think I need to split the frame to do a nice neat job on the Dremel cutting.

Yes my frame stripped easily on the tail boom screws. Looks like I get to drill them out and put sturdy bolts all the way through to really secure the tail boom properly.

Is that really a TREX tail case? It looks small, but maybe just slightly big on the Axe. heh

Very clever with the teflon strip... Can't wait to get to work on this... My microheli parts will be soon too, so I am looking at a complete rebuild. Fun. :D

Not sure how long I'll tolerate those Z-bends in the linkages - may hack in some extra ball joints pretty soon after.

Edit: oh btw have you seen the adds for the Axe CPv3? In version 3, they include Bell/Hiller and a DD tail. Don't like the look of the DD tail tho - brushed motor and tiny propeller. Funny they still include the 'hook on carpet and crash' wire on the tip of the tail fin. :(

Not looking for any 3D out of the Axe. Just smooth reliable 2d circuits and fun flying for calm days. It will be nice to actually take two working helis to the flight line someday...

[Edwinssiv]

Mark...the tail case or as I have been calling it the tail mount is custom made by Don...the parts for the tail, rotor, tail shaft, grips, belt, etc...is all from Align.

I am with you on the v3 of the Axe...I was hoping they would come out with the belt drive tail...it is so much more responsive, reliable and economical than the motor driven tail in the long run....but Helimax must know that because I am sure they are making tons of money on parts when you crash and when you burn up those friggin tail motors!

I am thinking I am going to buy a bare bones HBKv2 and strip the electronics from my non-flying Axe for it and see how that goes...I was thinking of buying a second belt upgrade...but for less money I can build a HBKv2 with parts from my Axe...we will see. But for now I have the BH and I am having so much fun with it...it is really a nice little bird and easy to fly.

Also Mark...I found at Radio Shack a screw set that fit very well with the current holes in the frame....no drilling needed...I could have counter sunk the nuts but I figured what a hassle it would be to have to put a flat screw driver in the hole to tighten or loosen the tail....this way I can use a pair of needle nose or a small socket to remove and/or loosen/tighten these bolts...it has worked very well so far.

[Ray K.]

Edwin-

Thanks for the extra photos, man! That idler block is a really nice looking piece! I'm almost sold on the setup. I claimed earlier that I'm not too keen on putting more cash into the FrankenAxe, but it's looking like I might go crazy with it after all. Hacker motor, new ESC (at least 25A), belt tail, and B/H head. I think I'll keep the LiPos I've got though... but only if the heli isn't too heavy after all this stuff. Being a little on the heavy side would make wind a little easier to deal with, but I don't want to overwhelm the main rotor either- and I'm afraid that I'm already dangerously close to that. There's no real good way to measure it, but it seems to me like my ACP hovers with 5° or 6° of collective, and that's kind of a lot.

So I guess it just came to me.... When I get the new motor, I'll have to be sure to get a pinion to go with it that will put my headpeed up in the stratosphere- like 3200 or 3300 RPM, and use carbon blades. There's no way that the stock woodies could tolerate that kind of abuse! With the higher headspeed, I *should* be making more lift for a given pitch angle, and it will improve performance in the wind. Of course flight times will suffer, but I'm getting 10 or 11 minutes on the setup I've got now. I'd settle for 6 or 7.

But once again, to play the Devil's advocate, I may be getting past the point of diminishing returns on this project. In other words, I'm looking at putting at least another $300 into this bird (possibly more if I need new LiPos) to get performance that still won't match the 'Rex. If I took that $300 and put it into the 'Rex, it would be a pretty bad-ass heli. Or, I could just save the cash and put it toward a nitro .50, which is what I want to do next. But I'm getting GOBS of overtime for the next several weeks, so maybe I should just go ahead and do it anyway. It would certainly be a lot of fun to have an ACP that can hang with birds twice it's size....

I am a man torn between two worlds... but I'm also pretty good and figuring out how to have my cake and eat it too. I guess we'll see!

-Ray

[Ray K.]

I just realized that we should put our heads together and see if we can't break new ground on ACP performance here....

So the question is: What can we do to reduce weight on an ACP without hindering performance?

Think about it, and we'll compare notes as we get ideas. The reason that I'm asking is because I just did the math and I will definitely have to get new batteries. My LiPos are rated at 15C, and that gives me 18.75 Amps safe continuous draw. I have little doubt that I'll be pulling more than that with a hotter motor. I need 20C! They don't weigh more, but they don't weigh less either. I was really hoping that using a smaller battery would be my ace-in-the-hole for dropping grams, but the reality is that won't work.

-Ray

[Edwinssiv]

Hmmm...I have never weighed my Axe...I will have to do that. Just weighed the Axe...cheapie food scale but it comes in around 485 grams.
My Set up as is right now...
I have the Eflite 6 Series Brushless 2000kv with 24 tooth pinion...This puts my head speed up around 2664+ calculated.
I have the Great Planes Silver Series 35A brushless ESC
I run the Flight Power Evo Light 1345 lipos
Bell-Hiller upgrade and Micro Heli CNC head parts...
With this set up I get around 8.5 minutes of flight time with no problems, with about 10.3 volts left on my lipos and no heat build up in the ESC, the motor is hot but you can hold it...not get burned after a flight and the battery is just warm to the touch. The Eflite motor has lots of torque and I am running my pitch at about 9 degrees top and bottom with no bogging at all running stock woodies. I think if I went to the carbon fibers this little thing would be a beast.

I tried running the plastic blades from Heli Direct with this set up and the blades could not handle the torque and head speed because they are shorter...they just did not have enough surface area to allow me quick responce when I did a punch out. You could actually here the rush of air over them as they tried to push the heli up...it is quite an interesting sound...lol

The LHS heli guy is the one who put me on to this combo...he has done the same to his Axe and is running 315 blades on his...says it has no bogging at all...but he has stuck with the motorized tail running some sort of brushless out runner with direct drive on it...it looks pretty cool.

I do have an Eflite Park 400 3700kv with a 14 tooth pinion on it sitting around at the moment (puts my head speed up around 2875+ calculated) that I tried with the motorized tail...but it was more than the tail could keep up with and I burned out a tail motor with that set up in about 6 flights :rollingIf I used that it would reduce my weight by 32 grams and increase my head speed...I may try that combo later on...

As I said earlier...I am not sure I really want to mess around much more with the GSoFA ...I have spent more money than I should have on this little bird...probably close to $675 with the Heli and hop ups...lets not even talk about parts, please, and this is not including the Spektrum DX 6i Tx I just had to have :YeaBaby:

I really want a heli this size to fly and with the current set up if I added tail boom supports I could probably do some pretty decent 3D...I think I could even push the head to 10 degrees top and bottom with no bogging...especially if I put the 400 motor and CF blades on it...I might mess with it some more so I have a 3D learner with it. But anything over 5 mph breezes has spelled disaster for me outside...hence the hop ups trying to get it to be more forgiving and stable....the majority of my flight time has been indoors learning orientation with this baby, although I have had some decent flights outside with no or very, very gentle wind.

I am still seriously looking at the HBKv2 bare bones package because I have a non-flying Axe sitting on the bench at the moment which I could strip...I already have the brushless motor for it and all I would need is an ESC to hop it up...plus it has parts avalability through online vendors...and the airframe is already set up with the belt driven tail, tail boom supports and everything I want in the Axe except the bell-hiller head (can you say mods?)...only about $90 shipped...

Yesterday I took the BH out and in 7-10 mph winds with 12-13 mph gusts I could still fly....it was unnerving because I am so use to crashing with any wind at all...but I flew a battery with no problems and did not even crash :tongue...I am very happy with the BH and the whole thing with 2 extra lipos and shipping came to $345 and I feel it is a very capable little heli even in in its stock form for me to learn more 3D on...time will tell.

[markind]

My kit from Don just came in. Pics soon...

Agenda item: Must go to WalMart to look at knitting needles - is it myth or fact? Can I find a Tail Boom there? heh

[Edwinssiv]

Mark...I personally have never looked at Wal Mart...I hate going there it is always crowded and it takes for ever to check out...but I have read a lot of people doing this mod. SO I believe it is true.

Edit: I believe you just have to cut the ends to length of the stocker...

Ed

[markind]

I hit WalMart last night. I found a pair of knitting needles that appear to be exactly the right outer diameter, and the color is nearly the same too. I will cut them tonight and see if the Inner Diameter (ID) is ok as well. Should be. And the lenght appears to be just right as well. About a dollar for each needle. Sweet...

[Edwinssiv]

Great Mark...I guess I may have to venture into the abyss known as Wal Mart to get some just incase.
I crashed my Black Hawk bad today...I was attempting my first flip with it and did not make it...rofl...it was very exciting!
So tonight I need to sit down with my Axe and see if I can work out my tail issue so I have a heli to fly while I wait for parts. The weather has been very nice in the mornings...windy in the afternoons and pretty decent in the evenings.

Ray...You have had me thinking about how to lighten the Axe...I need to get a more accurate weight for it...I think I am going to go a head and put the Eflite 400 in it to see how well it does with the higher head speed...I have a 15 tooth for the motor as well.....hmmm...the CNC parts should be able to stand the higher head speed....I guess I just have to try it...

I have a soft soft spot for the GSoFA...it is the first heli I ever bought...and with out it I never would have gotten into RC Helis

Ed

[Ray K.]

Yeah....

I share the exact same sentiment about my ACP. You said it- without the Axe, I may have never gotten into RC helis as quickly or easily. So in that respect, HeliMax got it exactly right when they took the Axe CP to market. It's inexpensive, easy to repair, easy to modify and upgrade, and most importantly, it flies well enough to be entertaining right out of the box. It was a gateway into the hobby; it made for a great platform to build my skills upon as well as a great platform to ease into buying things like a new "real" radio and other setup tools.

I had a Hell of a fun time building it up and modifying it, too. While it's true that it's performance is somewhat lackluster as compared to my 'Rex, it was still really fun going through all the hop-ups and experiencing the changes in performance. Sure, I spent a small fortune doing all of these things, but it was worth every penny. It's good, clean, honest fun, and it keeps me out of trouble too. Can't miss!

Now onto the business...

For the lightening ideas, I really haven't come up with much. I thought about what could be tossed without affecting anything, and I was hard pressed to come up with stuff. But this is what I got: Why not solder the motor leads directly to the ESC, and make them as short as possible in the process? That's got to be worth at least a few grams. Figure in a couple inches of wire and 3 bullet connector sets and their associated shrink-tube, and it's got to count for something. As long as we're shortening wires, why not shorten servo and gyro wires as much as reasonable? I say that should be worth another 5g. Another obvious answer is to use the smallest battery (in terms of mAh) you can get your hands on, while still providing adequate output and flight duration. I really don't think that CF blades will do much- I've heard from several credible sources that when blades are as small as we have on our ACP's, carbon blades are actually a little heavier than balsa blades. Other than these things, I can't really think of any other changes that could be made that would be worthwhile. Carbon fins *might* save you a whole gram. There's not really any fat that can be trimmed from the frame, either. Finally, I think it comes down to very carefully selecting your motor and other electronics based entirely on what they weigh. If you pick your servos and ESC(s) based on what they weigh, you might be able to pick up another 10g or so. The stark realization that I came to was that this is a game of inches, and it's going to take a lot of effort to save maybe 50g at best. On the other hand, if you can chop 50g of mass out of an ACP, that's worth about 10% of it's total flying weight and that's not insignificant. Being a game of inches, maybe there's something to be said here for using the fewest zip-ties possible, cutting the shrink-wrap off of things that don't truly need it, using the least amount of shrink-tube on wire connections as possible, and going through every little thing that you can do to save even a smidge of weight. Nickels and dimes add up, no? I know that in race cars, they'll go so far as to even shorten bolts so that there is no unneeded material on the other side of the said bolt's nut. Maybe taking the time and effort (and money) to do all of these tiny little things will be a worthwhile project in the end....

-Ray

[markind]

Got my parts from Microheli today. Doh, forgot they come from Taiwan... Now just need some time to tinker... Out flying TREX today at lunchtime hehe :D Perfect day today, sunny and CALM!! WOOT!!

[Edwinssiv]

I am so jealous Mark...I have been heli-less for a couple of days now. I have been meaning to work on the Axe but have not had the time or energy...and stuck at work on a very beautiful Saturday morning is really depressing.:thumbdown:
So when I get home this afternoon I intend on getting the Axe flying again as I will have to wait a couple of days for parts on the BH.