Axe CP separations and setup journal

[mashburncs]

Ray K,

I have been there and done that. I have rebuilt many many lawnmower engines and carbs and many American V-8 engines, carbs, transfer cases, rear ends, and transmissions. I have gotten to the point where I am tired of constantly working on stuff all the time. Being forced to work on it under poor conditions, not when you choose, but because you must use it, is quite different than tinkering with something when and where you want because you feel like tinkering with it. It was time for my POS MTD and POS B&S to be put out of its misery. I don't think that you are as old as I am, and have not reached the same point in life that I have. I am 39 years old.

Curtis

[Iceman140]

Oh my goodness Curtis you're ancient!!!! :lol:

I'm 48, and I still look for an exit everytime I hear someone talk about working on a vehicle. These fat fingers of mine just weren't made to be burnt and stuffed into places I can't see. Better is my temp controlled workshop, with DVD, TV, Computer, lots of room and tools. I just did the front disc brakes on my Ford Explorer and I love their caliper assemblies. But it took two weeks of hoping that grinding noise I heard up front would go away befoe I realised it just wouldn't on it's own. So I suffered through it. :mrgreen:

Ed

[mashburncs]

Ed,

You just made me feel much better. It is good to know that I am not the old grey beard on the board. You have it made with your shop. I hope that 2 weeks of grinding was the squeal tabs.

Curtis

[Iceman140]

mashburncs-

Ah no......replaced the rotor discs. But I really love Ford's caliper assembly. Oh I already said that.......but they make it so easy for us old guys. :mrgreen:

Funny thing. I work as an electro-mechanic on a production line all day and most times I'm elbow deep in grease and oil and dirt. Sometimes I get to crawl deep inside the beast to get the job done. I love it sometimes. But the mess the car designers are throwing at us today with no room in the engine compartment....sheeesh. When I used to work on my Chevy 250 straight 6, there was enough room to get inside the engine compartment and close the hood if it was raining. :mrgreen:

Ed

[Ray K.]

Curtis-

Very true, and I can relate. Detailing cars used to be my zen, but when I was hard-up for money one year I decided to start a mobile detailing business. Totally ruined it for me. I'm 28, but I can definitely see what you're getting at. It seems like as you get older, things that used to be fun become a chore.

The FrankenAXE separated it's swashplate last night. That sucked! Fortunately, there wasn't any damage to the rest of the heli, so it could have been much worse. I've been less than pleased with the quality of HMX's "upgrade" aluminum parts, and I'm sure that they'll be getting some hatemail from me. I'm even thinking about swapping all of the stock plastic head parts back in, with the exception of the flybar cage, because that one really is better than stock.

-Ray

[Iceman140]

RayK-

28....oh I remember it well. Explains the drive. I used to stay up 'til 3 in the morning typing in programs on my first computer and still getting up at 7AM. Oh the memories. I have a hard time doing home remodeling at work myself, though I' ve been supporting myself on and off, mostly supporting my hobbies, by remodeling other people's home and buildings. Funny how work can mess with your hobby huh?

Sorry to hear about the swash. Glad we're not talking about a Raptor 90 here. It would be a much sadder day. (Don't think I've ever used the word sadder before....hmmmm....new life experience. :mrgreen: )

Ed

[alucard]

Hello there I just sending my picture of my helicopter after a repair I had a pretty ugly crash after a complete fail on my external gyro now I am runing in the stock form but with a little more time in tunning

[Ray K.]

alucard-

That's a very nice photo! I wish I had the same kind of scenery that you have... the Detroit River isn't exactly nice to look at. Does the wind off of the ocean make too many problems for you? I'm glad to see that your Axe is flying well!

Ed-

Yeah, that kind of failure in a 90 would have been catastrophic. Fortunately, when the swash separated it caused a reduction in collective pitch. I was just lifting off into a hover when it happened, and the heli simply lost lift slowly and pretty much landed itself. Lucky day! What if the swash didn't separate slowly? There's a hundred other ways that it could have happened, and I'm lucky that it went the way that it did.

But onto the real reason that I'm writing this-

The FrankenAxe is going to have to learn how to share some hangar space. It's not that I'm pulling the plug on it- I'm simply getting another helicopter. I'm very much interested in getting a heli that can be flown outside when it's a bit windy, and I'm jonesing pretty bad for a belt-driven tail. Given that my bi-annual review/profit share at work went better than I was expecting, I'm going to break my own "1 year" rule for the Axe. I've settled on the HDX 450SE V4. Now, I'm going to have the chance to do some pretty crazy experimental stuff with the ACP, so this is not at all bad news for the Axe- it's good news! I won't have to be nearly as conservative with the mods, because it won't be my only helicopter anymore.

I'll be sure to post some photos of the new bird as soon as I get it built...

-Ray

[alucard]

Hello there Ray thanks. Well I tell you this, that day was olmost not wind at all even though you see some big wave but the wind was real calm I belived is becasue it was late in the afternoon like 7:00pm but anyway I had to learn to fly with wind inmy house most the time the wind is like 7 mph and I kind to fly it figure 8 using the wind to help me but hover is a challenge. In the beach it goes up to 15 mph impossible for the helimax. The biggest problem is the tail so you need to be careful with the tail especialy when the battery start to get low. Well tomorrow I going to a local heli club that evrybody is flying big ass nitro and i will the only one in a very tiny electric.
Hey Ray I planning to buy a Mini titan from Thunder Tiger I belived is better than the T-rex what you thing.
Well I will but some more picture of the heli that day on the beach
thanks for looking/\\.. OO my wife was the proffesional photografer. :lol: :smokin:

[Ray K.]

alucard-

I was looking at the E325 also, but parts are pretty hard to come by around here. Every hobby shop in my area has TRex parts, so it's more out of convenience than anything that I chose what is basically a TRex. Let me know how it goes with that Mini Titan, though- I'm very interested!

-Ray

[mashburncs]

Ray K,

Ok, now I am jealous. My wife would never allow me to buy another heli, when I still have not mastered this one. I have now flown it and crashed it a few times, but I can now go back and adjust the simulator to something that I might have a chance of flying. The simulator is about 10 times more sensative than the AXE CP, that is why I cannot fly the simulator with the sensativity at the default settings.

On to your new purchase. I know that you have done your research, however, if I were buying, I would by the TREX 450SE V2.

You being the tinkerer you are, you must take a serious look at the VIPER CPX at www.viperheli.com. This thing is almost all bolted aluminum, no CA required, and is ideal for tinkering, because of its super simple no nonsense design. After looking at the highlights, download the manual and give it a quick read. It is pretty awesome for someone who really likes to tinker.

Curtis

[Ray K.]

Curtis-

Wow, that Viper CPX is certainly pretty compelling... my only issue is that it appears to be another dual-motor heli. I've been really wanting to get into a variable-pitch tail. That said, I've been playing around with the idea of doing a ducted-fan tail on the ACP for a little while now. It seems to me that dual-motor helis suffer from a somewhat compromised piro rate as compared to a traditional tail system, and I've also heard of people saying that DM helis have some tail drift issues, which I've seen on the ACP. Don't get me wrong, though- it definitely looks like a pretty bad little heli!

Now, this is why I decided against the true Align-brand 450SE V2- I can get that HDX for less money, and it is essentially a V2 with a different frame and some very slightly different head parts. 90% of the HDX are actually bona fide V2 parts, and for almost $200 less it's hard to argue with. That, and I like the frame layout on the HDX 450SE V4 better. Always having to be different and preferring the appearance of the HDX over the V2 totally drove that decision home. Not that the SE V2 is a bad helicopter- I think it's great! The chance to get at least the same, and maybe even a better helicopter for less money was a no-brainer for me. I can take the money that I saved and use it to repair the HDX when I inevitably crash it.

I'm glad to hear that you've flown your ACP! I was suspecting that your sim was a bit on the sensitive side from how you were describing it, and now you'll be able to get the sim a little more dialed in to reflect actual flight characteristics. I just hope that your crashes weren't too bad....

Take care, and thanks for the heads-up on that Viper! I may get one anyway.... who knows.

-Ray

[alucard]

Hello people well Ray in what page you saw the HDX online because where I see it is like the t-rex in price. Yesterday I went in to a local club where evrebody is flyin big ass nitro and I get there with my super axe cp with some fine tune in the gyro costm canopy and a lot of crashes :D The first thing that they told me is .. that think can fly well I prove it it can and the guys over there at the end told me that i can come back any time jejej cool
whell anybody knows when is going to be avelabe the futaba 7c fasst radio I kind like it more that the spectrum adn it seem it wll cost olmost the same. Whell Ray like you one of the reason to move up to a belt driven tail is because people said that is a bit different than motor tail and I like to feel it before move up to a bigger and more dengeruos heli.

[Ray K.]

Okay, there's been a change of plans. Looks like it's going to be a true Align TRex 450SE New V2. Turns out that frame bits for that HDX are pretty hard to find, and that's no good. I was playing with the idea of getting a TRex 600, a Gaui Hurricane, or a Raptor E550, but it dawned on me that a heli that big- electric or not- is too big to fly inside, so why bother staying electric? So I'll get the TRex 450 now, and get some kind of nitro 50 in the spring. Like a Raptor 50 V2 or maybe a Pantera 50 or something. I'll probably consider 100 nitro helis and change my mind on what I want as many times, so we'll just have to wait and see what I actually end up with.

In the meantime, I'm wondering what a 3-bladed, flybarless, ducted-fan tail, 400 motor-powered AXE CP would be like.... Like I said, I think that the new fate of the FrankenAxe is to become the most obnoxious and yet nicest-flying ACP I can build.

-Ray

[mashburncs]

Ray,

So I see you chose my personal favorite the Align Trex 450SE V2.

Curtis

[Ray K.]

Curtis-

Well, yes and no. It's certainly gonna be a TRex, but I'm still debating on precisely which version. Honestly, I'll likely end up with an SA and convert it into an SEV2. I thought about how terrible I would feel when I ruin an SE, and I also thought about how much I like to tinker. SE's don't leave much to be modified.

I'll probably be placing the order tonight, so I'll be sure to let you all know what I end up with.

-Ray

[Ray K.]

Okay, I just got done with all of my ordering a little while ago. I'm going to be the proud owner of a TRex SA with another Spektrum AR6100 Rx, 3 JR DS285 servos for the CCPM, a Futaba 9650 for the tail being controlled by a Futaba GY401, and a pair of GP Electrifly 11.1v 2100 mAh 20C Lipo packs to power the whole affair. I got the kit that includes the motor and ESC, as it's pretty much impossible to beat the value extended with that price. I may end up upgrading them later, but they should be more than adequate for now. I also ordered 4 extra sets of blades, 4 extra sets of blade grips, and 2 extra sets of tail blades. By my math, that should keep me flying for a solid 15 minutes before I need to go the LHS. Despite the fact that I REALLY wanted an SE, I realized that an SE is way more helicopter than my current skill level requires- and it's way more helicopter than my pocketbook can afford to frequently repair. As I improve as a pilot, I'll slowly introduce some bling into the SA, ultimately converting it into an SE.

For now, the FrankenAxe is going to be fitted with a new MicroHeli swashplate because both of the HMX swashes that I've had were junk. One of them had a very stiff main bearing and very loose center ball (ironic, no?), and the other one separated on me after only a few flights. That one also had a center ball that would bind at high deflection angles.

I've been playing with the idea of swapping out the 10T pinion that I've got now in favor of a 12T, giving me almost 500 more RPM on the head. I've also been looking at upgrading to digital servos, and I'm almost done figuring out how to gracefully convert the swash links to have ball links on BOTH ends- when I get the 'Rex I'll know for sure. I'm thinking that the next major mod is going to be a ducted fan tail, but I may start a whole new thread for that type of stuff. It's not really a separation... it's more of a redesign / mod, and I feel that something like that may be out of the scope of this thread. And Ed (Iceman) got me started on the idea of running an alternate head system, so that would fall under that category also.

So it looks like this thread may be drawing to a close.... Thanks guys!

-Ray

[markind]

Not so fast! :D

I am just now lining up my orders for a Park 370 (should I stay with 4100KV or go for the 5700KV?), an E-Flite 20A V2 ESC, an Ammo 3850, and am still debating what tail ESC to use.

I was happliy hovering my Axe CP around and just looking forward to getting back in to Forward Flight, and the e-board just died. Everything works except no main motor ESC function. Output to motor always zero volts. I did a close visual inspection, and even took it to work and looked inside it with an X-ray microscope. No clues.

But its dead and rather than buy another e-board and stay with the inefficient hot-running brushed setup I want all brushless! :P

What is the current favorite for a brushless tail ESC?

Great thread, great heli, great project, great help!! Thanks!

[Ray K.]

markind-

I'm so happy to hear that you're gonna make a FrankenAxe too! As far as tail ESC's, we're kind of in unknown territory. I chose an ElectriFly SS8, if only on the merit that it meets the requirements for the motor. In terms of longevity and being the perfect pick, I have no idea. I just took my best guess at it, and it seems to be working nicely... so far. I was also looking at a 5A BL ESC that Venom makes, but it was a little pricier than the ElectriFly unit and having a couple extra amps of capacity seemed like a good idea. I know that I'm not the only guy that's ever done a BL tail on an ACP, but as far as I can tell I'm the only guy that's cared to document how to do it. So that means that there really is no "favorite" BL tail ESC. Again, I just went with the knowledge that the ElectriFly Ammo 3850 is going to have a maximum draw of 4.5A, and went from there. It's entirely possible that there's a better answer, but the SS8 that I'm using seems to be working well.

Now, for your main motor, I would stick with the 4100 Kv option. Assuming that you're running LiPo, let's do some math, given that we know that the ACP's spur gear has 180 teeth:

4100 Kv with a 10T pinion:
The 10T pinion will give a gear ratio of 18:1. Nominal output from a LiPo is 11.1v, so... 11.1x4100 = 45510. 45510/18 = 2528 rpm on the head, which is good for a helicopter this size.

4100 Kv with a 12T pinion:
The 10T pinion will give a gear ration of 15:1. 11.1x4100 = 45510. 45510/15 = 3034 rpm on the head, which is about as high as you want to go. Wood blades may explode at this kind of rpm.

5700 Kv with a 10T pinion:
11.1x5700 = 63270. 63270/18 = 3515. That's way too high, even if you're still on the stock NiMh battery pack.

So 4100 Kv it is, and just adjust your pinion to match your needs. I've been flying with the 4100 Kv / 10T combination, and it works very well. I've been playing with the idea of installing the 12T pinion though... ACP's clearly have better cyclic response with higher headspeeds, and I'm getting to the point as a pilot that I want crisper control. It's going to come at the expense of shorter flight duration and higher battery temperatures, but I think I can get away with it on my setup. Really, it all comes down to what you want and the sacrifices that you're willing to make. That said, I highly recommend the 4100/10T setup as a really good starting point, and you can make changes as desired after that.

Now, what kind of gyro do you plan on using? The reason that I'm asking is that if you're going to go with a separated tail, you're going to need a stand-alone gyro. I'm sure that there's a way to use the 3-in-1's gyro somehow, but I'm also sure that it's going to be more trouble than it's worth to do so. Soldering jumpers onto the PCB, needing a detailed schematic of the 3-in-1's layout.... not fun. I'm using a Futaba GY240, and it's freakin' great. An E-Flite G90 or a Futaba G190 will work just fine too.

If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask- that's what this thread is for!

Have a great day, and good luck!

-Ray

[Phishnvdub]

Hi Ray, I've got a quick ? for you. I've been running seperates for a while now. I finally went BL on the tail. I'm using the same tail components 3850kv ammo motor, ss-8 ESC and gy 240 gyro. When I arm the ESC the tail motor keeps running unless I give about half stick left input on the rudder. My other set up I was using the GWS ICS 300 on the brushed tail and it didn't run after being armed unless the gyro told it to or I gave right stick rudder input. Did you have this problem when setting up you tail? Thanks, Shaun

[Ray K.]

Shaun-

Yeah, mine does the same thing. I didn't really find it to be enough of a problem to do something about it, but it is kind of annoying. I just give it full left rudder if I have to move the helicopter while it's powered up. I think that it might be likely that a different ESC won't do that, one that doesn't have an initialization procedure. I don't really find it to be that big of a deal though. If and when I destroy the SS8, I'm probably going to try a different ESC, but I don't really feel like spending the money on another one when this one works fine. Maybe a CC T-Bird 9A would not have that problem.... it's hard to say.

-Ray

[markind]

Thanks Ray!! Ok, 4100KV it is (glad I asked before I bought!). Yep, I thought as much.

I already have a Gy240 that was working fine with the stock e-board, no extra ESC needed. I could hover with 'right stick only' input, and the heading would hold rock solid. No twitch or wag!! As the battery would drain, I noticed a slight drift, but no biggie.

I have made a good effort to repair my bad e-board. I replaced the main logic chip and 'gyro chip', but the board is still bad. No voltage to main motor. :( Tail motor and gyro functions are fine.

I will try a couple more times to fix the darn thing, as I have another e-board from which to salvage parts. That e-board had a gyro problem, but the motor ESC function was good.

Does anyone have a schematic of the stock Axe CP e-board anywhere?

If I can't fix it after 2 more tries (I am stubborn! I hate to resign to defeat when I am close to victory!), I am Going Separates and a brushless tail motor just makes sense. I am sure mine will wear out soon (darned brushes!) and anyway it is inefficient, runs too hot, and helps drain my LiPo faster than I would like.

I considered dumping the Axe but I can't fine another heli to fit its bill. Its small and tough, and reletively cheap to fix. I am building up a TREX 450 SE V2 kit, but that is a bigger and more serious heli. More dangerous too. A different animal. I like the Axe and once its hopped up to all BL it will be an excellent model.

Even if I do fix the darn e-board, I will 'Go Separates' as soon as either the tail or main motor fails, which is inevitable, and not far off.

[Phishnvdub]

Shaun-

Yeah, mine does the same thing. I didn't really find it to be enough of a problem to do something about it, but it is kind of annoying. I just give it full left rudder if I have to move the helicopter while it's powered up. I think that it might be likely that a different ESC won't do that, one that doesn't have an initialization procedure. I don't really find it to be that big of a deal though. If and when I destroy the SS8, I'm probably going to try a different ESC, but I don't really feel like spending the money on another one when this one works fine. Maybe a CC T-Bird 9A would not have that problem.... it's hard to say.

-Ray

Thanks a lot Ray, I just wanted to make sure I didn't set it up wrong some how. Knowing this is normal I'm going to put the AXE back together now. Have you tried the 3x2 square props yet? I have one I'm going to try after I run it like this with the stock gear and tail rotor. Again thanks for the clarification. Shaun

[Phishnvdub]

Update on the stock rotor and BL tail. No good. I have to look over everything on the heli. The motor was pulsing, servos glitching and the bounceback was really bad. I tried all different gain settings too. I might try the 3x2 prop next to see if that has the same effect.

[Ray K.]

Shaun-

I've discovered that I had to put a little e-tape around the connection joint on each of the motor connections. It was causing a symptom similar to what you're describing. I'm on 2.4G, so I didn't have any servo twitches, but the motor sure was acting stupid until I did that. It seems that just that little bit of extra insulation made the difference. I have not had a chance to try the 3x2 square props yet, because I can't find any. All of my LHS's are mostly car/truck/buggy oriented, and finding heli (and even some airplane) stuff is pretty difficult for me. 90% of the parts that I get are from online sources like Tower, HeliHobby, HeliDirect, ReadyHeli, etc. If you have a line on an online vendor that carries those props, I'd very much like to know about them- Tower has had those props in "order pending" status for quite a while now. Nevermind... I just checked and they finally have them in! WOO HOO! I'll update you all when I get them and try them out. I also got some 2.75x2 square props for grins... just to see how they do.

markind-

Regretably, I don't have a schematic for the 3-in-1. It just seemed easier to jump in head-first and go with the fully separated setup. However, I strongly urge you to do the upgrade before your tail motor craps out... I don't know if you read my entry on what happened when mine failed, but a $23 motor blowing out caused about $50 in damage on top of the blown motor. My ACP ate itself midair, complete with a gnarly boom strike. It's not a fate that I would like to see anyone else suffer! Much like you, I've got a 'Rex in the works, and I'm looking forward to comparing the two birds once they're both flying. I get the feeling that the 'Rex is going to be the superior machine, but I have no complaints with how my ACP has been flying... it's a win-win situation, I guess!

Good luck guys, and I'll talk to ya soon...

-Ray