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larrytoelle
05-27-2007, 10:16 AM
Howdy,

First off ... the following is in no way meant to criticise any product, only to inform others of a failure that I've had with a configuration of equipment and setup that I suspect is entirely my fault. This is an older bird with a new Jewel and AP2000i setup.

The following picture is of the bird, equipment and setup that I used.

Notice that I've used a two-tap variety Jewel generator ... the second tap (11.3V) intended for a camera mount. Also, note that this bird has an AP2000i stabilization setup using a FMA I/R sensor.

The first tank, after a thorough, engine running, range test was uneventful ... requiring some trimming due to the AP2000i setup. The Jewel seemed to be operating correctly ... the AP2000i indicated periods of 5.1-5.2V output, a voltmeter to the second tap showed output varying to engine speed. After initial tweeks, the bird flew smoothly and reliably with no sign of a problem.

On the second tank, I began experimenting with the AP2000i, recalibrations and varying gain to the unit. Again, nothing out of the ordinary ... things seemed to be working as I would expect.

On the third tank, at about 75 feet, the bird entered a hard left aileron roll, and continued the roll into the ground after one full roll and a little bit.

I can only speculate at this point, but I suspect the aileron servo went to full deflection and didn't respond further.

During the build, I had debated with myself where to locate the electronics for the Jewel ... finally mounting the first package on the aileron servo. This I suspect contributed to or perhaps was the sole cause of the failure. Although I had range tested and flight tested this setup ... when it failed the aileron was definitely locked in hard over. These are 8311 servos, installed new on this bird ... with perhaps 3 gallons on them.

Although the AP2000i setup is new on this bird and perhaps a contributor, I don't believe it was active at the time ... although I may have nudged the slider to activate it ... can't say for certain. Even if it was active, I can't imagine its normal operation would've caused a hard over aileron.

After the crash, the I/R sensor had disconnected itself and was found in the general line of flight. It's possible that it might have come loose from its mount and caused the problem ... but again ... I believe the AP2000i was inactive at the time ... but not entirely certain. Also, normal stick inputs seem to override AP2000i inputs, so unless the AP2000i simply went nuts, I'd find it difficult to believe the AP2000i was the culprit, or sole culprit.

Unless someone has a better thought ... I suspect mounting the Jewel's package on the aileron servo is the problem.

LT

rbort
05-27-2007, 12:24 PM
Servos do fail sometimes and go to full tilt one side or another. This can happen if a wire on the servo lead breaks. Can you check the servo lead and see if the wire is broken where its soldered to the circuit board inside the case?

I have not heard of any problems with the Jewel on any machine out there, and I don't believe that mounting the rectifier circuit on the aileron servo will cause it to go hard over like that. My thoughts is that its a bad servo, but I'm certainly open to diagnosis/investigation to prove one way or another what the cause is.

Can you reproduce the error? Does the servo go hard over by itself on the ground if you turn things on and wiggle the sticks? Try to go all the way over (full aileron) each direction and let go. Start the engine and leave the rectifier on the servo and try again while idling the motor. You need to reproduce it to figure out what the issue is. If you can reproduce it then you can remove the rectifier off the servo, leave the engine running and try again to see if it goes away. By troubleshooting like that you will be able to find the cause.

Let us know what you find.

-=>Raja.

MarkWebber
05-27-2007, 04:13 PM
Sorry to hear about the crash, Larry.

As you noted, even with a little gain on, you'd still be able to override the AP2000i's control inputs. The only time I've heard of similar problems were with high gain settings and a sensor wire had broken in flight. Turning the gain off allowed the pilot to recover.

Like Raja said, I'd suspect the servo. Hard over's aren't unheard of. What kind of servo was it, incidentally?

rbort
05-27-2007, 11:10 PM
Also another thing, if you were going to have a problem with the rectifier on the servo, you should have a problem all the time, not once sometime later as there is power flowing through that thing constantly so its either going to interfere or not. If you flew successfully for some time before this happened, I'm still thinking its a servo failure as I don't know a whole lot about the AP2000 system and how it behaves.

-=>Raja.

larrytoelle
05-28-2007, 09:02 AM
Howdy,

Haven't had a chance for a complete post mortem yet. I'll do so tomorrow and report ... with pictures.

LT

larrytoelle
05-30-2007, 11:33 AM
Howdy,

Below are some pics of the bird after the wreck.

First ... all things considered, any other bird that I own or have owned would've been destroyed by this wreck. These birds are incredibly rugged. No frame damage, the boom is even OK. The tail box, although scratched, is still OK.

Without doing anything ... I was able to turn on the bird and exercise the electronics. All of the servos seem to be functional, even though the servo wheels have been broken ... no stripped gears. The suspect aileron servo seems to be working as expected.

The battery indicated, via AP200i, 5.2V. The AXI does not appear to be damaged beyond some scratching where the canopy rubbed it while the engine was still running. The only pieces that came loose were the tail rotor, the governor, battery and balance weight.

With the AP2000i at up to 100% gain and no I/R, I was unable to get much in the way of aileron deflection ... and stick inputs would level the swash.

In other words, I'm unable to see anything on the bench that would have caused the aileron roll and wreck ... things appear to be normal and functional.

I'll remove the head and fire it up and see if there's any difference with the engine running. That's about all I can think to do at this point.

Any other ideas?

LT
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rbort
05-30-2007, 02:01 PM
Just remove the blades not the head and fire it up. If the main shaft is bent then replace it/repair the head and then run no more than 1/4 stick and try to see how the aileron servo responds and works with vibrations.

It will be ideal if you leave everything as is until you duplicate the problem. I suspect engine vibrations will make the problem appear.

Do the test and let us know what you find. I'm waiting anxiously on updates from you on this one.

If I may add, *never* fly over a parking lot or pavement. If you are over grass you will never get this sort of "scratch" damage. Even if you go to a parking lot, always take off from the grass around it and keep the heli away from the pavement.

By the way, some time ago I had a Bergen twin that was driving me nuts with strange and scary rolls in the air. I could never see anything wrong on the bench but finally I took the blades off and started the engine. I held the tailboom FIRMLY and throttled up slowly to 1/4 throttle and sat there for a while waiting and all of a sudden every so often the aileron servo would twitch to half deflection and back to center. It was a bad aileron servo that only showed itself with the engine running.

-=>Raja.