First heli, first crash

[sutty]

You will only go into negative pitch in idle up mode, not normal. This is why it is so important to set it up in idle up as he instructed.

As far as the +3 degrees of pitch in idle up is concerned, this is dependent upon your heli.
The idea here is at mid-stick you want it to hover.
Weight, headspeed, type of main blades used, and a few other factors will determine how much pitch you need at mid-stick in idle up.
Like I said, the idea is to get it to hold altitude at mid stick in idle up.

Confused :arggg:

You've been dealing with fixed pitch props for far too long now Tom. :rotf Never seen any set-up that hovers at mid stick. You should have 0 pitch at mid stick, hopefully in both normal and idle up, and hover slightly above, getting close to 3/4 stick. If you set it up to hover at mid stick this will not serve you well for the future when it is essential that mid stick is 0 degrees. You will want to learn rolls, etc, which will need full use of your -ve and the 0 has to be in the middle. If you learn different to this it will just make it harder.

As Jerry says, you should be able to get -3, 0, +7 in normal, and in idle up something like -7,0,+7 or maybe a little more up to about 8 or 9, but better if they match above 0.

Oh, he said all of the above too. Sorry, I'm just reading it in another window, forget me. :oops:

Cheers

Sutty

[wulfrun]

Thank you very much for the advice Jperkosk.

Right now i'm having major vibrations. I weighted the bird down sticking something through the skids and put dumbells on that. I was trying to check the tracking, which was spot on, but this gnarly vibration would shake the heli. something is clearly out of balance somewhere.
Not the ideal way to check tracking. Invest in a cheap pitch gauge asap, set both blades to flat at half-stick on idle-up (motor DISCONNECTED) and you'll be near enough to fly it and fine-tune after. Strapping it down by any method isn't good practice, although most of us have probably done so at some point.

I didn't look to hard at it. I did recheck that the fly bar was evenly spaced and it is exactly centered. Tomorrow the LHS should be able to figure it out. i'm hoping i didn't put in a bent main shaft right out of the package. We'll see though.
It's not uncommon for the stock shafts to be bent from new. Try and track down something better, like stainless. The Belt is common enough that you should be able to get them. Failing that, check very carefully before fitting (roll on a piece of plate glass).

I must say it was a bit discouraging having a big unbalance like that after building it up the first time but it isn't that surprising to me. There's a lot to this hobby i'm not aware of yet and i'm surely just not seeing something completely obvious to the experiences enthusiast.
See above re new shafts. Take the blades out and spin it up without them, to eliminate blade balance. Better still, also take the whole head mechanics off and spin it up either by hand or as slowly as possible - check for a wobbling shaft. Also, check the tail for balance/bent shaft too, although the tail goes faster and tends to buzz rather than wobble things.

[wulfrun]

Have you balanced the blades? Stock Esky blades are usually out of balance out of the box.
That's interesting, my experience of Esky woodies was that they never needed balancing. I don't use them now but I must have got through at least half a dozen sets when I first had it. Checked them every time and never found them out. Maybe I was lucky as hell!

[Tomstoy2]

All right, all right!!!! Don't need to beat me up!!!!!

My apologies.

Exact mid-stick should be 2-3 degrees negative, not positive. just got too many things going on at the moment. Gets me confused as I find it hard to switch off issues I'm working on,,,,
,,, and believe me, this new build has opened up a serious 16 ounce can of whoop-ass on me at the moment.
Ure it had nothing to do with the pearly-pops I consummed. :DOH

[sutty]

More confused now, lol. Everything I have ever read or done says mid stick = zero degrees. If I didn't have zero at mid stick in idle up I would have no helis left as I would have piled them all in. :lol:

Don't suppose I would, but they would have to be mismatched for +ve and -ve, and since I spend half of my time upside down now, it could get confusing.

Cheers

Sutty

[giorgos_cupra]

I never had on any heli negative pitch on mid stick!On the belt it was +3/+4,on the raptor +2/+3,on the t-rex +4 and i will have +2 on the tarot.

Tom what's going on here?Shed some light mate!I can't imagine a heli with low stick -9 half stick -3 and full stick +10!That's some crazy stuff right here:Bang

[KILLzombi3z]

Thanks for the advice. It's nice knowing there's you guys out there to all pitch in and help another out.

I kinda got blown off today at the LHS. The owner doesn't really speak english, nor works on helis at all. The guy that was going to help me wasn't working today because of the korean lunar new year. He could have let me know he wouldn't be in...

Anyhow. I'm going to take your advice and go through the set up one point at a time. I'll take the blades out real quick, but i don't have two drivers for the feathering shaft (LHS tightened it for me) so i'll have to leave that one out.

I'm going to shoot for roughly +1 deg pitch at midstick. 0 deg seems to make sense, but some on here are recommending +2-3 and the regional champ at the LHS was saying about +3. but i'm no expert either.

I'm trying to keep this cheap for now and stock after dealing with the reasonable cost of repairs OEM, anything above that will most likely get more expensive. I don't have any glass laying around to check things out, or i guess i could rip the mirror of the wall. that's glass.

Anywho, off i go for round two:peace

[KILLzombi3z]

Ok.

Some aspect of setting up this head is eluding me. I went through and checked what I had tools to do. I took the main shaft out, found a picture frame with a glass front and the main bar rolled good on that.

I did notice however, that when the main gear and that small one are mated together, they don't spin level. I spun up the bird real slow to get a good visual on this and each gear was not on a level plain, and they were not wobbling at the same point. There was nothing i could do to fix that one. Used the spare small gear just to be safe anyhow. OH, also, is it normal for the main shaft to have play inside the one way bearing? I mean, that extra little sleeve is in there to and there is that itty bitty amount of play. This concerns me.

I got that swash level to my ability. it took some tinkering around and flopping the idle up switch on and of to "reset" if you will my midpoint. I was doing that cause i was physically pushing that swash plate a little bit and i wanted it back where it should.

Excuse the lack of terminology, but the top links don't seem to be well. I loosened the fly bar to make sure the swash mixer arms or the first pair of arms up from the swash plate if you will, were all level. there was very minimal adjustment seeing as they were just one piece with no means for adjustment.

anyhow, i then discovered my paddles were out of level so i played around with that until they were level again.

so. next step i'm thinking was to measure blade pitch and see what's up. So i slap the blades on get everything ready to go, and my results were:

Idle up: -5/+1/+10~11

Normal: +4/+7/+11

really seems like i'm not adjusting something properly. +4 pitch in normal hover mode seems way to high to me. i was thinking it should be a negative up until midstick and then go positive from there.

Little lost at this point.


Oh and took the advice for not weighting the bird down while spooling up a tad and the paticular vibs were way less. but, once i get the rpms up high the tail lets loose like a cat outta hell. I look and the little slider that adjust pitch for the rear rotors starts freaking out. may not worry about it seeing how once i get it running i'm just going for some hovering and i'll crash it again before the tail issue becomes a problem.

[Luke Warmwater]

I'm going to shoot for roughly +1 deg pitch at midstick. 0 deg seems to make sense, but some on here are recommending +2-3 and the regional champ at the LHS was saying about +3. but i'm no expert either.


OK...no argument on this, in idle up, this should be 0 degs at mid stick. If it isn't everything else will be out. Worry about what it is in normal mode later, but for initial setup, in idle up, it must be 0 degs in order to get your head geometery right.

However, from your next post, where you give your pitch readings it looks like your swash isn't at the right height. You are getting far more positive pitch than negative. Your swash height must be in the middle of its travel range, in idle up at midstick.

At this point, don't even think about what your pitch readings are, just get the swash height set (and get the swash level). So to re-iterate, in idle up, stick at midstick, swash level at the halfway point between its potential travel range up and down the shaft. You set this using the links from the servos.

Then, move up the head, checking all other parts are level (still in idle up at mid-stick)....but still don't worry about your pitch yet! Get the head sorted from bottom up. Just note, don't assume that they are level because they were before. You've moved the swash height, so they will be different!

Once you have this (and not before), set the blades to zero degs pitch, again, in idle up with the stick at midpoint. Once you have both blades set like this (using the links attached to the blades), check to see what your min and max pitch is: it should be anything from +/-7 degs upwards.

Once you have done this, the geometery of the head is set up. Only now should you worry about where your pitch is in normal mode.
;) :)

[giorgos_cupra]

KZ,i can't remember if my belt's mainshaft had any play in the oneway.One thing is certain,you dont want any play at all on the heli.Given that this is an esky model though, zero tolerance on play is out of the question.So i guess that little play is fine.

As for the gears,see if you can bend them in shape by hand.I never messed with mine,never cared enough at the time.

Your arms,well the head's arms paddles etc, must be level at MIDSTICK only.Not lowstick or high.

As for your pitch,you got to correct it,you can't fly like this properly.Bring the swash down all together by shortening the linkages.You need -3/-4 on lowstick.Get the low position pitch and then measure your high.If it aint enough because you lowered the swash,then you got to adjust the balls on your servo arms....

As for the vibration,i mentioned it before but i didn't get a reaction.Setup the heli first.Be done with the setup completely.Then let the heli completely free in an open space.Spool it up untill light on it's skids.If the vibrations continue then check all the other things.If not,that's normal and all helis do it,shake until they catch up some rpm

[Luke Warmwater]

once i get the rpms up high the tail lets loose like a cat outta hell. I look and the little slider that adjust pitch for the rear rotors starts freaking out. may not worry about it seeing how once i get it running i'm just going for some hovering and i'll crash it again before the tail issue becomes a problem.

This is a separate set up issue (tail set up). It could be the mechanics of the tail or it could be the gyro set up. Sort the head first and we'll come to the tail after.
;)

[wulfrun]

I did notice however, that when the main gear and that small one are mated together, they don't spin level. I spun up the bird real slow to get a good visual on this and each gear was not on a level plain, and they were not wobbling at the same point. There was nothing i could do to fix that one. Used the spare small gear just to be safe anyhow.
Once again, that's Esky's quality (i.e. low). Up to a point, don't worry about it, that's "normal for Esky"!

Oh and took the advice for not weighting the bird down while spooling up a tad and the paticular vibs were way less. but, once i get the rpms up high the tail lets loose like a cat outta hell. I look and the little slider that adjust pitch for the rear rotors starts freaking out. may not worry about it seeing how once i get it running i'm just going for some hovering and i'll crash it again before the tail issue becomes a problem.
Just a thought, if you're talking about buzzy vibes, check the tail-shaft. A bent tail-shaft causes high-pitched vibes that can send the gyro crazy. One other thing to check is the belt speed-up gear, the small one that engages on the lower main gear and carries the belt pulley. I've broken a couple of them and they usually shed a tooth, or most of it. It's a bit dark in there and looking edge-on just won't show you a missing tooth, the outline of the broken bit just looks like a normal tooth, so have a thorough look.

[KILLzombi3z]

Well fellas, she's all set up! Mintu (sp?) helped me out and fixed my mistakes in like 5min with nothing but eyeballing it. Very impressive. I guess when you've been doing this for 15yrs and are a national champion is comes easy.

Anyhow. I finally got her up in the air and hovered around. I'm still not able to keep my hover in a tight spot or anything, but i can keep it within a 8ft radius which is good for me. It's very mentally draining at points, and easy to get your thumbs mixed up. I'd just randomly loose concentration on thumb movements and have to set the bird down and recoup.

I'm having troubles getting away from quick jerky type inputs and being smooth and anticipate the movement instead of reacting. All in good time.

Thanks for all the support and advice. Got me through my first crash and helped keep me in the air!

[wulfrun]

Well fellas, she's all set up! Mintu (sp?) helped me out and fixed my mistakes in like 5min with nothing but eyeballing it. Very impressive. I guess when you've been doing this for 15yrs and are a national champion is comes easy.

Anyhow. I finally got her up in the air and hovered around. I'm still not able to keep my hover in a tight spot or anything, but i can keep it within a 8ft radius which is good for me. It's very mentally draining at points, and easy to get your thumbs mixed up. I'd just randomly loose concentration on thumb movements and have to set the bird down and recoup.

I'm having troubles getting away from quick jerky type inputs and being smooth and anticipate the movement instead of reacting. All in good time.

Thanks for all the support and advice. Got me through my first crash and helped keep me in the air!
Glad to hear it all came together. Keep at it - you won't crash again if you give up now but neither will you learn anything, skill-wise. I don't often get much time on mine (UK weather!) so I'm not that much ahead on skills - I can hover it all day in a lot less than 8ft radius and do some slow flying around in big spaces but that's about my limit yet. After more practice, you'll realise all of a sudden that you've hovered out a whole battery - that's a nice milestone.

[KILLzombi3z]

Haven't had to much flight time lately. I've been unlucky at catching the LHS at the right time to fly. I did download a different sim to practice on that has been way better than the sim that came with the BeltCp.

What do you guys normally do in down time? I'm itching really bad to fly but can't risk another crash trying to fly in the spot i was before. Sim time actually kinda flys by once i get into it tho.

Also, LiPo batteries.. I've heard mixed things about leaving them at full charge all being bad. Some say 24hrs, to couple of days. Mine have been at full charge for maybe 4 days now and i'm curious how bad it is.
I was reading you want to keep them around 50% for storage and in general when not in use to increase longevity.

Any tips?

[CyprusDave]

Downtime? Blade mSR or better yet Blade mCP-X

[KILLzombi3z]

I was looking into those. Are they worth the price? They're about as much as a Belt but I'm green about Heli's in general.

I was looking at:

http://www.helimax-rc.com/helis/novus/hmxe0804-novus-cp/features.html

[comatosed]

That's quite an expensive little heli, my mate paid about the same for an RTF mCP X.

[wulfrun]

I was looking into those. Are they worth the price? They're about as much as a Belt but I'm green about Heli's in general.

I was looking at:

http://www.helimax-rc.com/helis/novus/hmxe0804-novus-cp/features.html

If I'm not mistaken, that's a re-badged Walkera. I have the FP equivalent and I can't fly the darn thing. The gyro is hopeless, leaving the tail twitching all over the place (despite fiddling with the gain). A friend has the same model with the same issues, so it's not an isolated case. If only the gyro would behave it'd be quite a usable heli - brushless tail/main on mine so no motor life issues. The link above is a brushed version and the main motors in particular have a reputation for a short life. I'll stand corrected if someone knows better though!

[redbird300]

What do you guys normally do in down time?

Read, learn, sim, build, mod and such. Fly another heli probably. You’ll have several of them in no time anyway, lol. It’s a major addiction. :face
About the Blade mCPX, IMHO it’s well worth the money, for a lot of reasons, I’m not gonna repeat them all here. The motors are brushed though, but they work well. My main motors typically wear out after a 100 to 150 flights, but they are a quick and cheap replacement. My first mCPX is at his fifth motor now, the other only has his second motor, but will need replacement soon. I take them with me on holidays, fly them indoors a lot, and even at the club field just for fun when there’s so much wind that the newbies don’t dare to get there 500s or 600s in the air anymore. Just to annoy them, in fact. :rotf

[wulfrun]

Haven't had to much flight time lately. I've been unlucky at catching the LHS at the right time to fly. I did download a different sim to practice on that has been way better than the sim that came with the BeltCp.

What do you guys normally do in down time? I'm itching really bad to fly but can't risk another crash trying to fly in the spot i was before. Sim time actually kinda flys by once i get into it tho.

Also, LiPo batteries.. I've heard mixed things about leaving them at full charge all being bad. Some say 24hrs, to couple of days. Mine have been at full charge for maybe 4 days now and i'm curious how bad it is.
I was reading you want to keep them around 50% for storage and in general when not in use to increase longevity.

Any tips?
Downtime - mSR and mSR-X

LiPos - there is information around that says you shouldn't leave them at full charge for too long and about half-charge is best for storing. Personally, my smaller LiPos live at half-charge in the fridge if it's longer-term. If I've charged bigger Lipos and then been unable to fly, I run them down using a car headlamp bulb - 15 mins for a 2200mAh 3S is about right.

[redbird300]

Also, LiPo batteries.. I've heard mixed things about leaving them at full charge all being bad. Some say 24hrs, to couple of days. Mine have been at full charge for maybe 4 days now and i'm curious how bad it is.
I was reading you want to keep them around 50% for storage and in general when not in use to increase longevity.

Any tips?

Correct !
You won't destroy them when keeping them fully charged once for a few days, but these times add up, and in the end they will last less longer.

[jperkosk]

I was looking into those. Are they worth the price? They're about as much as a Belt but I'm green about Heli's in general.

I was looking at:

http://www.helimax-rc.com/helis/novus/hmxe0804-novus-cp/features.html

Still have one. Way too twitchy to fly IMO :thumbdown:

Correct !
You won't destroy them when keeping them fully charged once for a few days, but these times add up, and in the end they will last less longer.


There are two religious factions as far as storing Lipos goes, and the convictions are based in good part on faith since verifiable facts are few and far between. Both factions agree that that overdischarging Lipos will ruin them instantaneously and overcharging even a single cell in a Lipo can be plain disastrous, so decent balancing charger is a must.

Where factions split their ways (look up religious diaspora) is on the subject of storing the Lipos. The FP (50%) faction believes in discharging their batteries to about 50% since this is generally accepted safe storage level. The problem is it's a major PITA, it's much more handy to keep them fully charged (which is a 100%, or HP) and have them ready to fly on moment's notice. I have always belonged to HP faction, but this is mainly due to the fact that I'm lazy and not organized enough to maintain a rigorous charge-fly-monitor-discharge if necessary routine, charge-fly suits better my laziness. I also did some reading on Lipo technology, and I think the FP faction errs on the side of safety, that fully charged Lipos will not degrade as long as they're kept at relatively low room temperature, the upper limit would be somewhere between 15-20°C. The only Lipos that puffed on me were the ones left fully charged in the room that exceeded 20°C. I tried leaving the batts in sealed in Ziplock in the fridge (can't freeze them, though) with apparently good results but there isn't really enough data for any scientific conclusions so it's still a faith based belief.

[KILLzombi3z]

I've heard mixed opinions on storing batteries in the fridge. From grandparents that do it to technical school saying it's bad due to the temp that electricity is the most efficient at. And that doesn't play a role until extremes anyhow. I'll stick with not charging them after a flight until i can get a decent balancer. I wouldn't mind erring to the side of safety anyhow and due to the wife i don't see flight time being too frequent once I PCS.

Jperkosk, I was curious if they would be twitchy or not. Everyone has been telling me that the larger the heli the more stable the flight. So, it only makes sense that a little bird like that would be. Hard to fly them then? I would be troubled to buy a mSR or mSR-X to have it be crazy to control. I would want to get a little CP guy anyhow cause IMO getting a nano FP heli woud be a step backwards in learning for me. Just don't want to get a little nano CP heli and have it be almost un-flyable for me at my skill level. We all know those videos are skilled pilots!

[wulfrun]

Everyone has been telling me that the larger the heli the more stable the flight. So, it only makes sense that a little bird like that would be. Hard to fly them then? I would be troubled to buy a mSR or mSR-X to have it be crazy to control. I would want to get a little CP guy anyhow cause IMO getting a nano FP heli woud be a step backwards in learning for me. Just don't want to get a little nano CP heli and have it be almost un-flyable for me at my skill level. We all know those videos are skilled pilots!
The twitchy nature of the Walkers is down to cr*p gyros, not the small size of the heli. It's not that they're twitchy in a consistent way, the tail twitches in a totally random way! Unless they've improved a lot recently, Walkera electronics were widely slated and my experience gives me no reason to disagree.

The mSR is quite docile and easy to fly but it can still give you good practice in things like orientations. The mSR-X is an mSR on steroids and a flighty little beggar.