HK-4025 12N8P Winding Project

[HeliFX]

yes it is pretty confusing a specially when you trying to decipher the google translator ;-)
as for tools I've modified a pair of long needle nose plier and grinded the inner part in the shape of the stator tooth and a variety of plastic wedges and probes.

since I'm winding an 12N8P motor the schematic options are less then 12N10P.
schematic I have 12N8P
4 + 5 Wd YY @ 1.6 mm star (Wye) approx Kv 1100
ABCABC | ABCABC

hope i'm correct maybe someone with more experience can chime in and confirm.
a part from using the online winding calculator i've gone through the trouble to build a schematic in photoshop or even paper to help.

Looking at those photo's seem like the insulation is definitely much too thick. I've been told something like 0.14 mm is best.
What thickness paper are you using ?








I gave it a try yesterday with a 1.06 wire. (@ HeliFX 1.3 or more will give you bloody fingers:bawl)
Just a few winding to see how it works.
Huuhh, not so easy.
The insulation paper, which I used, was way too stiff. I measured about 0.25mm.
Secondly, my, with hard work :roll: prepared pliers, which I thought to be terrific, damaged several wires at the top.
I tried to squeeze the wires together and the highly polished pliers slipped off.

I learned from Stolla and a winding video, that you better have some prepared small pliers, which are recessed and have a longitudinal groove to catch just one wire.
Have to work on that one now.:roll:

I am still trying to comprehend the different wining schemes.
I could just copy what Mauro or Stolla did, but that's not good enough for me.
I know, that Jives like the YY winding (essentially 2 motors on one stator, just connected in parallel)
I learned, that, if you wind in those groups of two, one has to be cw and one ccw. doesn't matter which one is which, as long as you do all the groups of 2 the same.
I saw, that the Croco site, Stolla, Dekker and Mauro like to use the outside jump to the other (2nd) tooth of the group. This is more difficult, because you have to thread the wire for the second tooth, but it leaves more room in the slot for additional windings (or zick-zack), if you go for a lower Kv.

I am 80% there, (at least in the theory of it) but still are a little bit confused on what creates the North or South pole.
Is it the direction of the current, the winding direction on the tooth or a combination of it.
I read a million times through my notes from last year and the powerditto sites, but . . .

[ZuvieleTeile]

Yeah,
1.4mm is what Brocott sellls and what I've ordered.
I just got a refund from Brocott on my PayPal account with the message, that the shipping calculation was wrong.
They are reconfiguring the website for the international shipping costs and promised it will work in a week. . .
I have to get my order out again then.

[HeliFX]

try ebay more options!
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_kw=ENAMMELED+COPPER+WINDING+WIRE+%2FMAGNET



Yeah,
1.4mm is what Brocott sellls and what I've ordered.
I just got a refund from Brocott on my PayPal account with the message, that the shipping calculation was wrong.
They are reconfiguring the website for the international shipping costs and promised it will work in a week. . .
I have to get my order out again then.

[Blades_Cuts]

yes it is pretty confusing a specially when you trying to decipher the google translator ;-)
as for tools I've modified a pair of long needle nose plier and grinded the inner part in the shape of the stator tooth and a variety of plastic wedges and probes.

since I'm winding an 12N8P motor the schematic options are less then 12N10P.
schematic I have 12N8P
4 + 5 Wd YY @ 1.6 mm star (Wye) approx Kv 1100
ABCABC | ABCABC

hope i'm correct maybe someone with more experience can chime in and confirm.
a part from using the online winding calculator i've gone through the trouble to build a schematic in photoshop or even paper to help.

Looking at those photo's seem like the insulation is definitely much too thick. I've been told something like 0.14 mm is best.
What thickness paper are you using ?


What is " 4 + 5 Wd YY"? I normally see that notation for dLRK scheme, the winding scheme for 12N10P and 12N14P. I understand that you are winding 12N8P, which is appropriate for "ABCABC | ABCABC" parallel YY scheme, all winding direction CW, as indicated by capital letters.

Bulkwire.com and TechFixx.com has wide selection of sizes for magnet wire

[HeliFX]

4 + 5 is referring to number of turns per tooth that will effectively give the target Kv value of 1100.

ABCABC | ABCABC = 545454 545454

asking on the german forums this is the schematic link that was given to me
http://www.powerditto.de/schema12N8PYY.html

based on my understanding.



What is " 4 + 5 Wd YY"? I normally see that notation for dLRK scheme, the winding scheme for 12N10P and 12N14P. I understand that you are winding 12N8P, which is appropriate for "ABCABC | ABCABC" parallel YY scheme, all winding direction CW, as indicated by capital letters.

Bulkwire.com and TechFixx.com has wide selection of sizes for magnet wire

[Blades_Cuts]

4 + 5 is referring to number of turns per tooth that will effectively give the target Kv value of 1100.

ABCABC | ABCABC = 545454 545454

asking on the german forums this is the schematic link that was given to me
http://www.powerditto.de/schema12N8PYY.html

based on my understanding.


ABC is suppose to be wound with equal number of turns per teeth. The notation I pointed out earlier was applicable only for dLRK, sometimes referred to as unbalanced dLRK, applicable only to 12N10P and 12N14P, since each pair of teeth is a single phase.

[HeliFX]

well I'm officially confused :thinking

I had posed this question to german forum asking what the proper schematic is generally used for 12N8P motor and in response they provided that link.
stating 4 + 5 Wd with Star (wye) would provided the best target Kv 1100.

from what your explaining all ABC should be done with a equal number of windings.
so 4 + 4 , 5 + 5 etc.






ABC is suppose to be wound with equal number of turns per teeth. The notation I pointed out earlier was applicable only for dLRK, sometimes referred to as unbalanced dLRK, applicable only to 12N10P and 12N14P, since each pair of teeth is a single phase.

[Blades_Cuts]

I'm not really sure about the notation, "_ + _ Wd", but, the way you described it, I could only picture dLRK scheme. The "W" might stand for some German word, and the "d", probably the first letter in dLRK. The "_ + _", could be the turn distribution for a pair of teeth.

There's no 4 + 4 or 4 + 5 in ABC, AFAIK. It could be 8 or 9 turn YY, meaning 8 turn per teeth, terminated parallel YY. ABC stand for phase A, B, and C, the three phases in our brushless motor. Capital letter being CW, CCW if written in small letter.

I'm thinking they may have misunderstood that you're rewinding 12N8P motor. That or the notation they described was actually "first layer + 2nd layer Wd".

[HeliFX]

well here a link which user "Dekker" has a list of scorpion motors he has rewinded one of which is a HK 4025 * pole motor.

http://www.modelbouwforum.nl/forums/model-elektronica/126944-scorpion-hk3026-hk4225-hk4020-hk4025-hk4035-buitenloper-wikkelen.html

well i'm not sure if they miss understood since I was conversing back and forth in english. :)

I believe Wd stood for "winding".

now my head hurts :lol:



I'm not really sure about the notation, "_ + _ Wd", but, the way you described it, I could only picture dLRK scheme. The "W" might stand for some German word, and the "d", probably the first letter in dLRK. The "_ + _", could be the turn distribution for a pair of teeth.

There's no 4 + 4 or 4 + 5 in ABC, AFAIK. It could be 8 or 9 turn YY, meaning 8 turn per teeth, terminated parallel YY. ABC stand for phase A, B, and C, the three phases in our brushless motor. Capital letter being CW, CCW if written in small letter.

I'm thinking they may have misunderstood that you're rewinding 12N8P motor. That or the notation they described was actually "first layer + 2nd layer Wd".

[Blades_Cuts]

I feel you.

Anyway they were winding 12N10P, falls under dLRK scheme. If yours is an 8 pole, there no way you gonna get the same spec, not to mention your motor will not run, might even burn including your ESC. For the same size/kind of stator, number of magnet, and strenght of magnet, to mention a few, will affect power and characteristic of your motor. Winding scheme.

[HeliFX]

blades_cut

did some more digging around and research and this is what I learned again please correct me if I'm mistaken. Still learning and absorbing and looking to clear the haze.

For a 12N8P, winding schemes - it would generally ABCABCABCABC and D or Y or YYYY or DDDD.

one thing is YY possible 12N8P ?

"A" versus "a" difference that I understand. CW and CCW.
3 phase I'm clear on that.
termination difference between Delta and Star

a lot of info is based on question and feedback perhaps there had been some mis-communication thought my questions where pretty direct but didn't get as much feedback I was hoping for.

I suppose they get annoyed with newbie folks trying to learn. :)

[Blades_Cuts]

Yes YY is okey.

One thing I would suggest, if you have thinner wire, do a complete test wind. This will give you a good idea of the length of wire you will need for your final wind, the thicknes is just for ampacity. And I mentioned complete test wind, that I mean to actually terminate it and assemble the motor, but use small amount of CA to glue the stator temporarily and do a test run using data logger, kv meter, or similar gadget, to get a baseline kv. That will be very useful in determining the number of turns you will need for your target kv, in case you miss it the 1st time..

The formula would be the kv you attained, times the number of turns for that kv, divide by the next number of turns you want to try. The result would be the approximate kv for that next number of turns to be winded.

[Stolla]

Yes yy is possible 2 motors in one just follow the diagram here http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showthread.php/230057-4025-Kit-selber-wickeln-wie/page4
Keep the esc wires apart to test each motor.
Dont overthink it!

[HeliFX]

sound like a logical method.
I've been using simple speaker wire to practice a dry run for schematic but never really thought to use thinner wire and do a full run to determine Kv.

I've been given this formula
(old number of turns * old speed / new number of turns ) *1.15 = new speed
using the original spec of the scorpion motor.

appreciate your time and putting up my basic questions


Yes YY is okey.

One thing I would suggest, if you have thinner wire, do a complete test wind. This will give you a good idea of the length of wire you will need for your final wind, the thicknes is just for ampacity. And I mentioned complete test wind, that I mean to actually terminate it and assemble the motor, but use small amount of CA to glue the stator temporarily and do a test run using data logger, kv meter, or similar gadget, to get a baseline kv. That will be very useful in determining the number of turns you will need for your target kv, in case you miss it the 1st time..

The formula would be the kv you attained, times the number of turns for that kv, divide by the next number of turns you want to try. The result would be the approximate kv for that next number of turns to be winded.

[HeliFX]

Stolla

yup over thinking is right :) each time thinking its sticking I get side tracked and confused again.
I have seen that diagram then again I've seen so many it all becomes a blur:YeaBaby:

I will follow that link and schematic.
so this would be for a:
HK 4025 12N8P motor at YY ABCABC | ABCABC Star (Wye) termination

the part that confuses me with that posting when I read other post they start talking about 4 + 5 turns which I now learn only applier to 10P motor only.

I'm assuming that entire thread is related to 4025 8P motor unless there are 4025 10P motor that I'm not aware off.

again thanks for the help.



Yes yy is possible 2 motors in one just follow the diagram here http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showthread.php/230057-4025-Kit-selber-wickeln-wie/page4
Keep the esc wires apart to test each motor.
Dont overthink it!

[Stolla]

There is no easy way to determine kv except to do what others have done or do half the motor in thin wire and log, the 15 % increase in kv is a benefit (in some instance of yy over d) with the same amount of copper

[powercroco]

speking about 12N8P winding and 12n10P winding in the same thread will only increase the confusion because of beeing absolutly different things.

[HeliFX]

perhaps a separate thread would be best 12N8P. agreed

personally it be nice to have a sticky which outlines and distinguishes the main differences between 9N6P,12N8P and 12N10P for a new winding project.





speking about 12N8P winding and 12n10P winding in the same thread will only increase the confusion because of beeing absolutly different things.

[ZuvieleTeile]

speking about 12N8P winding and 12n10P winding in the same thread will only increase the confusion because of beeing absolutly different things.

I was going to suggest the same, but Ralph was faster.
BTW. welcome Ralph!!!:noteworthy
We all wished, you would join us in our new forum. And here we go. . .:bacon
Let's move the 4025 or better 12N8P discussion to a new thread to avoid confusion.

I am in the process of e-mailing Will, to move the 12N8P related contents of this thread to a new one called: HK 4025 12N8P Winding Project.

[ZuvieleTeile]

Here we go.
Let's continue here with the 12N8P project.
Hopefully Will can move parts of the former discussion to this thead.

[powercroco]

Are there any videos or step by step tutorials on this process and whats involved?

for 12N8P winding you can follow this site (12N8P and 12N16P use the same scheme):
http://www.powerditto.de/Schemaditto.html (http://www.scorpion.powercroco.de/12N10P4225Kit.html)

for 12N8P YY
http://www.powerditto.de/schema12N8PYY.html

for 12N8P with half turns:
http://www.powerditto.de/schema12N8Phalb.html

[ZuvieleTeile]

Easier said than done.:roll:
I got almost broken fingers and poked myself in the cheek with "just" 1.06mm wire during a little test-winding.:lol:
Since we have you here Ralph, I would to take the opportunity to pick your rain a little bit.:oops:

I read a lot in your powerditto and looked at the winding schemes until I had bloody eyes.
There is one major thing, I don't understand.
I am talking about the correlation of the various teeth in general and the 12N10P YY in specific.
I did this in the excellent calculator on your website and got the attached result.
As far as I understood the whole thing so far, I was under the impression, that a North pole is created, when I start with the winding down at the slot and wind outward.
It does not matter, if I wind cw or ccw, right?
And lets say this first winding is the one where the current from the ESC comes in (Anfang A) red group.
Now, looking at the attached pic, I see, that the second red group (opposite) has the (Anfang A) exactly opposite of the first tooth of the first group.
Only difference is the direction of the winding.
I thought that the opposite tooth has to have a different pole direction, in this case, South.
Question here is, what makes a South or Northpole at a stator tooth.
The direction of the winding or the direction of the current flow?

Please enlighten me here and please keep in mind me being just a layman, but with the desire not only to copy, but to understand.:face

[HeliFX]

too add to the confusion.

scorpion HK- 4225 motors come both in 8P and 10P.
http://www.scorpionsystem.com/catalog/search/?q=4225

according to the scorpion site 10P is only available as a kit as well as 8P kit.
built motors they only have 8P.

for new motor winders like myself I'd pay special attention too this.


for 12N10P YY winding you can follow this site:
http://www.scorpion.powercroco.de/12N10P4225Kit.html


schematic:
http://www.powerditto.de/schemamodus12N_YY2.html

for 525/V (jive) or 550 (yge) you need 6+7 turns YY.
easy to wind with 1,25mm; normal with 1,32mm; possible for good winders 1,4mm wire on 4225 kit.

[powercroco]

the only important rule you can find here

http://www.powerditto.de/schemalesen.html

if a cw coil makes a magnetic "north" p.e. you can change it with 2 ways:
you change the winding direction to ccw or you change the flow direction of current you get "south".
if you change both together, you have "north" again.

this is the same in every winding scheme!
it's the one and only basic rule.....

[ZuvieleTeile]

From what I've heard and read at powercroco etc.. the 12N10P variant is the most used, economical and powerful.
And not to forget, a lot of people are using the Jive and the Jive likes 12N10P in YY :lol:
Look at all the other big motors.
Most of them are 12N10P