Newbies-A little note on "Experts"

[Iceman140]

Jermo-

I hear you. Thanks. I'll let you know how the build goes. :mrgreen:

I've seen high powered heli crashes online and in the sim and I'm just not convinced on the $20 repairs yet. But I hope as I get bigger I'll see. Another thing a newbie will have to learn with a .30 nitro or any gas heli of good size is engine tuning and maintenance. From my experience in construction and indoor wiring work, a lot of shirt and tie people who can afford to get into this hobby, couldn't tune a fish. RunRyder has a few posts on the AxeCP and most posts I read were of sucess, but I'm sure I didn't read ALL the posts. The same goes for the new Dragonus which is being compared to the TRex450 side by side. We'll see. It's great to have so many options, and like I always say, VanGogh did not teach Renoir how to paint. Some things are just different. :smokin: :WOW :banana :woot

:Stay

GENTLE CHARGE YOUR BATTERIES!!!!!!!!!

Ed

[Iceman140]

Hey newbies-

Just one more note. I know a good bunch of guys at the local club. These guys are as into flying as you can get. I'm talking $1500 to $2000 helis and $3000-$7000 planes with twin 100cc gas engines. The last weekend I was there, they all had $58 Easy Star foam planes with no landing gear and simple radios. I saw 4 guys having more fun chasing each others' planes around and looping and diving with modified tail rudders and stock elevators, than I've seen have fun in a long while. Crashes were handled with CA glue and activator and back up they went. Isn't it all about the fun of flying anyways? I think so. :mrgreen:

Ed

[Jermo]

yep..around here they fly "bobs". They look like pacmans with pusher prop setups. A local makes them from foam insulation.

Hit RC Groups. That's the ultimate newb forum. As far as tuning a motor.. if you go electric there is no tuning.

My goal is to help folks quickly get past hovering and actually flying. I was dumbfounded to discover some guys around here have been HOVERING for almost 2 years. I'm guessing the technology has made the hobby much more accessable to the average person like me while providing a much easier learning curve.

[tz250w]

Whoops, double post... :oops:

[tz250w]

I just pump sum nitro in her, hook up the plug heater and give her a twist with my shaft. It seems to be working so far, I'm a happy guy and she's buzzing around all over the place. :D

As for the rest of this thread, I think I'll try reading it again after my beer buzz wears off. For some reason, I feel stoopid... :wink:

[Iceman140]

tz250w-

How's it going in Japan? Don't they make Align stuff in Japan? Just wondering what they go for in price on the island. As far as the beer buzz thingy goes, good judgement on that one. See you when you only see one of me. :mrgreen:

ps, don't take anything you read here serious. Nothing I say has ever been chiseled in stone yet. :lol:

Ed

[tz250w]

Align is in Taiwan and they suck! (Read my link to find out why... :wink: )

ALIGN (http://www.align.com.tw/html/en/e_company.htm)

[Iceman140]

tz250w-

Ha!!!! very nice! :lolol
Although I found the website to be highly filtered. Guess I got "hosed" on that one.
U one funny guy fer sur.

Ed

[Iceman140]

Hey guys!!!

The Dragonus II lives!! The head is built. I strongly recommend that anyone getting the Dragonus II Plus with plastic head parts, also purchase a 2mm tap and screwdriver handle. Tapping holes into plastic with 2x10mm machine screws and smaller ones for the balls is not easy to get em straight. Especially with sausage fingers.like mine. I didn't tap all the way, just got the tap in far enough so the screw could start. And watch out for the phillips head screws. They'll strip easily.

I still don't see how anyone without build experience, a set of dial calipers, taps, and prescision building tools, could pull this off without a lot of frustration. But I guess. :dontknow Looks like the head is the most critical build here, next is the tail section, then on to the double frame. Bob's vids are definately helpful in decyphering Taiwanese to English translation. :lol:

Here are some pics so far.

[Jermo]

It's easy..we all cheat and watch Finless Bob's video's :D

[Iceman140]

Jermo-

I'd rather cheat and send you and Bob the kit. :mrgreen: After 20 or 30 thousand computer terminations, I just don't have the desire to do something that requires anal precision. I'm glad I'm back to electro-mechanics. Got to the point where people were afraid to come into my data closet while I was terminating. Oh well, I'm sure it'll all be worth it when it flys. :roll:

All I need in the future is a Raptor 90 RTF. :WOW

Seeya.....
Ed

[Iceman140]

Tail's done folks! My 2 mm tap is quickly becoming my best friend.
Not much diff from all metal, even though all metal isn't all metal. :mrgreen:

Almost like whacking myself in the head with a hammer. It's gonna feel so good when I stop. :lol:

Seeya!

Ed

[Jermo]

hehe... I'm looking forward ot hearing your flight adventures. You may want ot consider a flight log so you can see your progress. Some days it doesn't seem like you've advanced until you read where you were ;) .

[Iceman140]

Jermo-

I already ordered a rubber stamp for entries into my flight log to save writing the same thing over and over. "Crashed again. Operator error. Date:mm/dd/yyyy"

:lolol

Ed

[Tomas Ahl]

What do you think of the nitro scents I see advertised? I'd like to try one in Tutti-Fruiti if they have it. I never saw any response to this one... No need to be anonymous! ;)

Two years ago I tried some coconut scent in a bottle of nitro fuel and it was absolutely perfect, it smelt coconut for sure! :) Really crazy! But as I have one bottle attached to my field gear that I fill up before each trip to the field the scent additive got diluted more and more and after a while the smell didn't resemble coconut anymore, instead it was really bad so I had to run the bottle dry quickly before filling it up again... But it was a fun experience!

[Iceman140]

Tomas Ahl-

Seems I get the same response at the field whenever I bring it up. :lol:
Someone at the lab was having a boring day so now we fly by smell. It must be funny to know someone is flying by smelling his heli different from all the others.

I'll bet all the guys look up to see who's flying when they smell Rose Petals or Lilac. :mrgreen: Or if there are no women present, maybe they don't. :wink:

Ed

[Jermo]

I think you'll be amazed at how much YOU DON'T CRASH with a larger chopper.

[Iceman140]

Jermo-

Oh I don't doubt it at all. It never was about size. It was always about the amount of skill and precision involved in putting one together. Remember the experience thing we talked about. I don't care if it's a Raptor 90 RTF, I still think an RTF is the way to go for newbies. A newbie listening to a manufacturer, another expert, would believe he could tap machine screws directly into plastic parts, and even the higher end Dragonus II has plastic parts, and that is just not possible with 100% sucess. The holes should be tapped first, and a newbie would not know that. Look in my pics and you will not see stripped phillips head screws. :mrgreen:

Building is building, flying is flying. My 22+ years of building things of electro-mechanical nature has helped me with the subtle differences between the Dragonus II plus I have and the one Bob is building in the videos.

Was at a open house Sunday and watched the repairs being made to a newbies Trainer plane before it's first flight. Loose servos, throttle linkage not set properly, binding points, and a totally unsecure aileron servo topped the list. Impatience and lack of experience was 100% of the reason for these mistakes, good thing the vets were there with the right tools and patience to keep it in one piece. The results after repairs, one happy day of flying.

I'm not an optimist or a pessimist, I'm a realist. If you only got so much water, the glass is obviously too big. Set your goals to match your abilities and sucess will come. Set your goals too high, with time and experience a new one will learn his skill level, and you'll fail and be disappointed. I've helped a lot of people over the years to see that they could accomplish what they set out to do, funny thing is three of them went to become IT guys even though they thought it was too hard, but I've never tried to get someone to do what is beyond their skill level. I would never recommend someone climb Mt Washington with me in the winter season and tell them they'd have sucess. It's just not realistic.

So, on with the build. more pics to come........
:fly :fly :fly :fly
Ed

[BarracudaHockey]

I don't care if it's a Raptor 90 RTF, I still think an RTF is the way to go for newbies

Absolutely not.

The best way to learn about your helicopter is to build it.

Its appropriate to seek out the proper help but I feel its always best to stay away from prebuilt stuff if you can, you learn much more that way.

[Iceman140]

Barracuda-

We all have our opinions don't we? You talk from your experiences and I talk from mine. You can't learn to fly from building. Again, and believe it when I say I'm NOT a newbie, building is building and flying is flying. I say there's plenty of time to learn to build after you learn to fly. Plenty of other people in here have offered to buddy me up with their bigger gas heli for the experience and I appreciate their gesture. But stubborn people unwilling to see things from another persons point of view are just annoying to me. In the world of computers I have found basically 2 types of people. Users and systems operators/builders. I don't think knowing how to build your computer would make you a better user. Millions of comps sold every year and yet we don't require building knowledge from everyone buying one. You want to learn about your heli, you're right, build it. But I still don't think that right off the bat a newbie should learn the most difficult part of the hobby before he/she gets to experience the rewarding parts we're all building for in the first place. We don't teach white belts Long Form #4 as their first lesson in the arts. They have no base to learn from. Establish a base first and the rest is much easier.

We can turn this thread into an arguing thread but it would serve no purpose. Some people are just not capable of building, and there is nothing wrong with me having someone else build me a Raptor 90 if I choose to, thus making it an RTF.
My original intention for this thread was to warn newbies about taking advice from people calling themselves experts. Not all advice coming from these people is worth listening to. Someone else in this thread mentioned that they should research all advice first and don't act on it until they understand it. Good advice from where I'm standing.

From my experience the younger ones are the ones adamant about their opinions and are unwilling to take someone else's point of view. The older ones in here are. It's a life lesson.

You want to get someone hooked into this hobby, buddy them up and let them fly your heli. When they show interest you'll prove my point for me. Fly first....build later.

I gotta go flying now....or is it building....no flying. Oh, I'm soooo confused. :mrgreen:

Ed

[BarracudaHockey]

In the spirt of discussion, not argumentitiveness.

Most of the people that buy those PCs and blissfully operate them are the ones that call the geek squad to come fix it when it breaks.

As for factory built helis, well you never know if the fellow putting it together has ever seen a helicopter fly or has any appreciation for locktite on his spindle bolt, and they arent going to replace your chopper if it flys apart because its built poorly.

I'm personally neither a kid nor an old timer. I've been in the hobby a long time but I'm only 40. The vast majority of people in the hobby will tell you its better to build than buy. I'm in that majority.

Its a hobby though, do whatever works for you, I just dont want to see the newbs that read this forum not see both sides of the story :D

[Iceman140]

Barracuda-

I have no problem with that. My point is that as an instructor, both in the martial arts and in the field of communications with the Electrician's union building computer networks, it's sad to say that some people will just not be mechanics. I've watched apprentices struggle for 3-4 years and just not get it. Then they watch their work fail and get disappointed and leave, in some cases for the better.

There is no need now with the technology offered in this hobby for anyone to fail because he/she is not mechanical enough to build. That's my point. You and I can build, that's great! But some may not have the ability or the confidence to build and that opinion of themselves will keep them out of this hobby. You are missing a big point. Having an EXPERT like yourself, and I truly regard you as one of the real experts, build me a Raptor 90 makes that heli an RTF. If you find a GOOD SOURCE of RTF people out there, then they will use the right build techniques. The key is in asking others which RTF's are good and which are not. You do not have the time or worldwide statistical data to make statements like "vast majority". Maybe the majority of the people you've spoken to agree, but I seriously doubt you or anyone else has spoken to the "vast majority".

I just had a heli expert at the open house yesterday tell me that the new 2.4 Ghz radio anteneas do not have to physically see their transmitters, even after I explained that Model Airplane News just had an article on the 2.4 Ghz radio requirements. Even after I explained my credentials as a comm tech, he still didn't believe me. When an object in his heli or plane that is capable of blocking radio signals in the 2.4 Ghz frequency band, blocks the signal for a brief moment while he's inverted or turning at just the right angle, because he failed to position the 2 ant leads properly for inverted, and he loses control, even for a moment, maybe he'll get it. But with his stubborness he'll explain it off as a glitch and all the newbies around him will agree instead of learning. When my wife's nephews were just kids and the DDS ant was low enough in the yard, they used to stand in front of it just to tick off their mom who was watching her favorite Tv prog.

Being an instructor allows me to see people with all kinds of abilities. It's my job to see where best to stear them and help them develop their abilities. The apprentice I mentioned earlier that failed at mechanics was good at cooking, his part-time job. Cooking is a right brained activity, it requires a different style of creativity. I encouraged him to persue that avenue and give up this dream of being a comm tech foreman on a million dollar job.

There are many sucess stories surrounding the Helimax AxeCP RTF. Check RunRyder for yourself. Some sucess stories even come from the "Big heli builders" that until now didn't believe they could be flown. Obviously they are not in your "vast majority", but until ALL the sucess stories come in, I'm not dismissing them. It seems unrealistic to me to tell someone I've never met before in this forum or on the street that they can undoubtedly build their own heli. But I know I can safely say that a newbie does not have to build his own heli to enjoy flying it. Find a reputable builder. Even my heli expert at the open house, with years of experience, had to take his heli to a local heli guru with his own store, to get it straightened out because it just wouldn't fly, and "I know I did everything right!". Apperently all his years of building experience wasn't enough. So all you newbies out there with years and years of building experience take heed. (But then again if they had years of experience they wouldn't be newbies and they'd be able to build their own heli....or maybe like our expert heli guy..maybe they wouldn't.)

And once again we're right back where we started.....isn't life grand! :mrgreen:

FLY ON GENTLEMEN!!!! :fly :fly :fly :fly

eD (Doh!!!! even with my years of experience, I still forget to turn off the CAPS key)

[JasonJ]

I personally feel rtf's should not be called rtfs. They should be called "Initial Assembly Complete" followed with the stern warning to check and locktite all screws that are metal to metal, as well as all other connections. By the time someone has done this, he/she should have at least a modest understanding of what the helicopter consists of. Yeah, the little coaxes seem to be okay out of the box, but once you start getting into single rotor collective pitch, it's disassembly time in my mind.

Unfortunately, we live in an Instant Gratification Society, where RTF helicopters are bought and crashed on a constant basis. Me, I am all for building and flying. Yeah, my helicopters are both rtf, but by the time I was done taking stuff apart and checking things, they may as well been kits. I also feel a person should develop at least a basic ability to repair and diagnose problems. I suppose it could be said that a pilot of a real helicopter or airplane doesn't need to know how to fix it in order to fly it, but I can bet that they need a basic understanding of how the thing works so that when all hell breaks loose at 10,000 feet they can deal with it.

Being someone who builds and repairs cars and boats and having never taken anything to anyone to have fixed, it boggles my mind how many people have no idea how to fix anything. I also don't see a need to exclude the mechanically challenged from this hobby, they just should try to understand that their learning curve might be steeper if they are having to learn to fly and learn to fix. I also agree that it is hard for a noob to learn to fly if he/she is having to wait for someone else to fix their heli. At least when I have an air/ground incident, I can run inside, change out some parts, check things out, and be in the air again. My only problem is having to order parts, as my nearest lhs is almost an hour away and it is hard to justify spending $30 in gas for a $5 part...

[tz250w]

I've spent the better part of my life racing motorcycles. The only person I ever trusted to wrench on them was myself. I'm still here, so I guess it worked. :D

[Iceman140]

JasonJ-

I agree with you exactly. You've said what I've been trying to say all along. A fully built Helimax AxeCP gives me an idea of how a heli is supposed to look when it's built. Then I take out a screw, apply locktite and put it back. No damage done, I do another screw. No trying to decypher poorly translated Taiwanese to English instructions. The holes in plastc are already perfectly tapped too. Tapping plastic parts with machine screws will only result in stripped screws. I tap my 2mm holes for my screws on my Dragonus first. Check my pics, no stripped screws.

The Axe flys 3D right out of the box. 3D too much for me and I unplug my already installed motor, watching my tail motor I level my swash. One by one I remove my installed servo arms. Drill out a hole further in with a .055" bit and move my link wires closer to the servo hub on all servos to reduce my cyclic and make it easier to handle. All this with an already assembled heli that takes crashes well to begin with. I get a little experience as a newbie building, without having to explain to the wife where I goofed up building my $800 heli which is now a pile of parts because I didn't fully understand the instructions and it crashed.

Now that I have a little build experience and some flight sucess, all for a mere $200, I can go on from there. I know there are a lot of junk micro/minis out there, but the Axe ain't one of them. A lot of people tried the Blade CP and from my experience I saw major flaws in the structural design, so I didn't buy one. Now I can tell someone else in forums like this what a good RTF is to try and what to do to calm it down to learn to fly. Isn't that what these post are supposed to do? Funny how I hear no arguements against simulators.

A lot a people have mechanical abilities that they just don't know about. But I don't advocate them finding their limits the hard way, namely by crashing an $800 machine.

You talk about building boats. Funny story. I worked for Elitecraft in Fl for a while. A fiberglass Chriscraft like-a-like. I could tell you how they simulated woodgrain in fiberglass, but then I'd have to kill you. :mrgreen: (secret classified stuff). This was a 21ft 3500lb craft with a Ford 351 V8 inboard and a top speed of 40mph. Yeah, a floating rock. A semi richman's toy for sure, with a fantastic warranty. Twice a customer with a 70ft yatch towed the Elite behind in the ocean only to turn around and see nothing but a bowlight, the rest underwater. In warranty, full replacement, no questions. You think this guy had a clue about repairing his yatch? I think not. :lolol :arggg:


Ed