Newbies-A little note on "Experts"

[rdlohr]

Build your own heli. You will be rebuilding it after the first crash anyhow.
Use a ferrite ring just to be safe, it does block noise and they are light and cheap.
Sim as much as your brain will tolerate.
Watch the Finless vids.

Enough said.
Rick

[pistolero]

Ice & rdLohr
Plenty of good advice from the fine HF People.
My Tip on building surface or work bench top.

Get a large sheet magnet (like the ones used for signs) either pain the dark side white or cover with thin white cloth. The escaping parts are usually magnetic annd the cloth "grabs the others", the y don't bounce.

The physical disabilities of mine include restricted motion and If I have to get down to pick something up I need a strong support to get back upright.

The Futaba rcvr antennas seem to lend themselves to heli installation, when I work out the final placements I will send photos.

[flynn]

Hi, I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I have a question and this is one of the few active threads where the HB2K is mentioned. Does anybody have a setup profile for the DX6 with the HB2K. I really like the copter and would like to move to the DX6 TX. I already have the radio, just looking for some setup help.
Thanks

[Iceman140]

Hey flynn,

You couldn't possibly hijack this thread, it's been on a downward spiral since page one. But back to your topic. I know there are other AxeCP threads changing radios from factory sets, but I haven't seen any yet for the HB2K. How 'bout it guys?

Maybe Jermos radio video may give you a few hints or get you started at least.

Hey I just noticed. Number of views under Newbies is 6855, not including tech subjects, number of view on this thread 3450. Maybe I should be in advertising. Heaven knows I've got the BS and eye-catching titles. Hmmmmm..............

I'll look into that....after I go get my head pounded this morning.

Ed

[rdlohr]

Barracuda is correct. Post anything you want and we won't sensor assuming you follow our simple rules on respect. Delete anything you want of your own posts, they are yours.

Words on a page often seem harsher than what the writer intended. I often write stuff then reread it a few times to make sure I came off as planned. I've sometimes offended people with terse comments that were never intended to be offensive. After people get used to your writing style, they usually have an easier time interpreting what you intended, even if your words were not selected as well as you would have liked.

By the way, in this case, I have to believe KY is Kentucky, not jelly although that one had me rolling! :rolling

Thank God for Nurses, by the way. I just recently had lots of interaction with quite a few when my father-in-law had a stay in the hospital, and you guys are SAINTS!

Rick

[Iceman140]

Thanks Rick,

It's when I was a patient that I saw nurses for what they do. They're a great bunch. It must be the disorder that well meaning visitors bring at the wrong time that get us the evil stares. Hahahaha. They have a whole floor to worry about and some are worried about where mom's sweater went, as if it mattered much. Or why mom's water glass is half empty. Silly stuff.

Hey, we have a new RTF on the market guys and gals. E-Flite Blade 400 3D RTF. Digital servos, 3800 kv BL motor, micro heading lock gyro, CCPM, Lipo included,Spectrum DX6i radio, etc. Check it out. I wouldn't doubt that all the mods some have done on RTFs like the AxeCP, have led the manufacturers to make fully assembled bigger helis for the "not too thrilled to build" crowd. (Another great catchy slogan from the masta). So we'll have to watch and see how this new heli checks out. Listing around $470 with radio.

http://e-fliterc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=EFLH1400

Keep flyin'

Ed

[Crash549]

I didnt read the ENTIRE post but I agree that beginners should get a beginners heli.
My main concern is safety. A beginner with a high headspeed heli is just a bad idea.

[Iceman140]

I didnt read the ENTIRE post but I agree that beginners should get a beginners heli.
My main concern is safety. A beginner with a high headspeed heli is just a bad idea.

Crash 549-

I feel the same way. They make trainers for airplane flight. Why not for helis. Many kits allow you to assembly the heads for different flight experiences, but that entails building. Newbies may not know the building techniques to sucessfully complete their first project. We seem to be creating a list of RTFs for newbies, and the latest 400 series from Eflite with digital servos and Spectrum radio seems a good buy for $470 complete including lipo and BL motor. I wouldn't advocate a TRex 600 for a beginner, but I lean towards safety and I've got a feeling the damage a 600 could do would not show well in pictures. But I could be wrong.

Cool story about learning. We all know cheap servos don't last. But new builders will buy them at $4 and new to building, they will burn them out and not know why. A friend did just this. Then replaced them with better servos and still burned them out. Then came the tail snapping which helped me diagnose part of his problem. New CNC tail parts that weren't up to quality standards and were binding, just like the orginal kit tail parts that smoked the cheap servos. A really good servo did work thru the binding, but a crash that trapped the tail rotor, locked the servo gears and stripped them out. Now with new quality CNC tail parts, no binding, and the only servo he had left was a $4 servo for the tail, and it's working fine. He's not doing competition flying yet, so no major stress to the tail servo.

The point. It would have taken him longer to find the binding if he put high end digital servos in that would have moved right thru the binding. But the binding would still be there and later 3D flight would have caused a problem when the good servo too couldn't keep up. Again simple build basics would have eliminated the problem right off the bat, but this hobby is all about flying, not building. Modelers build, heli pilots want to fly, and impatience and inexperience allow us to say good enough when checking the machine. Good enough is never good enough.

So, on to the field!!! The screws on my heli are a little loose, but I'll get them later. They're good enough for now. DOH!!!!!!!!!

Ed

[makaluch]

I'm also a heli noob. I have many years with RC car and buggy racing, both gas and electric...but helis are a whole new animal. What I'm taking away from this thread is:

Nothing can replace stick time, be it on a sim or live.
Be financially wise. Spend what you can as long as it's a good match for your abilities and work ethic. Remember that runtime, parts, and maintence cost money too. Don't sabotage yourself into quitting and wasting that big investment in fun.
Go slow. Don't rush through the basics because of frustration. Just be calm and have fun! Being a pro 3D pilot takes years and years of practice, lots of money, and tuning tips that just can't be taught. Hover, orient, "run the bases", do drills, timed runs, precision...whatever it takes to have fun.
Be aware that every single heli will be different and conditions can make the same one very different from day to day. Start your day by running through the basics for feel. Don't "explode" into anything.
Learn to tune your heli for best performance, reliability, and improved control. Your machine needs to be an extension of you!
Be informed by researching, but don't replace research with experience. Many things you read come from people with very different levels of experience and expertise. Also, many things are preferences rather than doctrine. Recognize the difference and build your own experience.
And most important...HAVE FUN! Participate in your local club or online communities like Heli Feak. The people are what make any hobby worthwhile. Enjoyable hobbies are all about interacting with people that enjoy the same things that you do.

[makaluch]

Looks like a low-cost option for the intermediate pilot. Marketing kills me. Hopefully Eflite is smart enough to detune these suckers if, in fact, they really are capable of "3D".

Being a new guy (but old in RC) I know not to touch hi-performance machines yet. All the disclaimers in the world can't fix injury and property damage.

[istandalone]

Good enough is never good enough

those are some of the wisest words i've heard refering to rc helis, and it's been my motto for ever. i've got OCD pretty bad, so even a small crash/hard landing and i'm tearing everything apart checking for damage.

[Iceman140]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the great input.......and reviving an old thread. What can I say... I try.

I never really thought this thread would go this far. 7360 views of newbie threads, 4285 of them for this particular post alone. That's 58%. Must be the eye catching title. It's been fun though. I see many more RTF's out there. Some not so cheap. Like I said before, modelers build, RC pilots want to fly. I like building too, don't get me wrong, but the flying is the main goal after all. And having fun....

Seeya,

Ed

[Iceman140]

Wow....now sitting at 65.42% of the Newbie viewings.

Many more RTF's available for the buying. From the cheap to the $2000.00 models. I really don't want to say I told you so, but hey, some people just don't want to build. What's the big deal? For the record, I still haven't built my first car or truck, although I married into a Nascar Family that builds from the frame up. I was willing to drive, but not drive. Builders don't get trophies or get on film. Haha.

Again to each his own, but I'm glad this hobby has everything for everybody, and I'm glad I could point this out while dodging blows from the best of the best. I've driven Disney's monorail trains, 600 volt wonders and I know their workings nose to tail, but I ain't never built one. I leave that up to Bombardier. If you work for Bombardier, my hat's off to you, just wish you included a deadman bypass on yer Mark6 trains. Would've been a good idea in my opinion.

Seeya helifreaks,

Ed

[Al Austria]

Well, I'll voice my take on newbies starting up.

For the record, I've been flying helis for about 6 years, planes for 8, and have been around R/C models my entire life. I saved up when I was 14 and bought a Century Hawk SE which through the miracle of the internet, was able to build and setup entirely by myself. I had the local expert look over and test fly my setup. I'm now 20 and currently in college. I started working part time at the local HobbyTown USA late in 2006 and inadvertently became the store's primary R/C helicopter resource. I can confidently say that I have EXTENSIVE experience working on and flying R/C helicopters from many different brands, especially the RTF models. EVERY machine I mention below I have had prior experience with, be it setting up and/or flying.

You can't compare an RTF to a machine built from the ground up. RTF models have their place, typically with those who don't wish to invest a great deal of money in something more substantial. When a customer walks into my store looking for a helicopter, I always take their expectations of this hobby into consideration. If they want something that they will have fun with TODAY, I'll recommend a coaxial such as the Blade CX2 or an Axe EZ. Collective pitch machines like the Walkera, Honeybee, Axe CP, Blade CP/Pro, etc. I'd only recommend to those who have prior experience with a coaxial or an R/C flight simulator because quite frankly, they don't fly all that well without modification. Like many have already mentioned, the thing RTF models don't give is the invaluable knowledge gained from building your machine from the ground up. YOU'RE GOING TO CRASH NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. One may believe that since an RTF is already built that once they crash, they will be able to fix it because "they'll remember how the machine was put together". The fact of the matter is that the majority of people that buy an RTF have no clue as to how to put it back together after a mishap. Out of all the RTF machines I sell in a week, I'd say 90% of them come back with their owners asking me how to fix it, or them just leaving it for me to fix for them. Like you say, not everyone is mechanically inclined. The truth is that this hobby is not for everyone and some people ought to just stay away, for everyones safety. I have little faith in people who want to get into this hobby but lack the discipline of actually wanting to become proficient working on their own machines. Building, setup, and repair are ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY MANDATORY if you expect to get anywhere in this hobby. As for a newbie not knowing HOW to build or setup a machine, if they don't have enough common sense to consult someone who is experienced or even a forum like this, then they have no business trying to fly a heli.

Now, when it comes to learning with an RTF vs building up a kit, my empirical experience shows that those who build up their own machines become far more proficient pilots. The only type of RTF machine I'd consider selling to an all out newb is a coaxial. Coaxials take relatively little time and skill to learn how to operate and fly when compared to a collective pitch machine. IMHO, RTF collective pitch machines are responsible for the most discouragement among newbies I've witnessed. I realize you own an Axe CP so take the following opinion with a grain of salt. I've flown(and sold) many Axe CP's and IMHO, it is a piece of garbage. It's overweight, underpowered, unstable, and flight times are unbelievably short with the stock NiMH battery. Part prices are also outrageous. Most cost more than the equivalent T-REX 450 part, not to mention that Align replacements usually come with 2 or 3 per package! I discontinued selling the Axe CP in favor of the E-Flite Blade CP series as they seem to "work" better out of the box. That said, 100% of the my customers who learn on a such models don't get much further than hovering with them, if they get that far at all. Most of them end up selling their machines and pursue other interests. The ones that manage not to become discouraged and upgrade to say a T-REX 450SA, always kick themselves in the ass for not starting off with one in the first place. In fact, 100% of the newbies I've advised to build and setup their own machines(with my guidance obviously) are still flying! Most have progressed into more advanced flying and aerobatics. In the end, I think I've made my point. RTF's have their place, but the perceived convenience of them being "ready to fly" is IMHO, an inconvenience.

My 2 cents.

[Iceman140]

Hey Al,

Thanks for posting. From what you've told us, you definately seem to be the exception rather than the rule for people I've met. A lot of people are not as mechanically inclined as others. Many executives that will earn far more money than you or I are one example I've seen. Can't turn a screw, but can pay someone else to do it for them.

To say that someone not mechanically inclined or not willing to build or repair should stay out of the hobby for safety sake could very well be said for the wonderful world of automobiles. I know lots of good drivers that bring their vehicles in for service or repair on a regular basis, and can afford to do so. And the fact that their car didn't come as a kit, says what I've been saying all along. You don't want to build or don't care what's under the hood, get someone else to do it for you. You buy a Yugo and it fails, your bad for not researching autos. You buy a Mercedes and it lasts forever, Bravo! I don't advocate cheap RTF's, some are available for as much as $2000.00. An RTF is simply a machine built by someone else, even if it's a kit you get an expert to build it for you.

No one needs to be kept out of this hobby due to an equipment or building issue. Many excellent NASCAR drivers do not work on their own vehicle before the race. They drive it, period. Sometimes they crash, sometimes they don't. Whether their mechanically inclined or not, they chose not to handle the tools. They leave that up to guys like you and others that earn their living fixing things others can't.

In our martial arts school, we adapt our style to the individual. We do not try to force the individual to adapt to the style. This way all can benefit and partake, and I think MA is a little more dangerous than Helis, especially on a street combat level. Not all participants can do all the moves or techiniques that others can do, but we make sure all are capable of handling whatever situation comes up. Even if it means dodging a runaway heli and taking out the untrained pilot flying a raptor 90 he built himself cause someone told him he had to. :>) But hey, I'm not arguing just posting to keep this the most popular viewed topic yet.

Seeya!!!!!

Ed

[Al Austria]

Hey Al,

Thanks for posting. From what you've told us, you definately seem to be the exception rather than the rule for people I've met. A lot of people are not as mechanically inclined as others. Many executives that will earn far more money than you or I are one example I've seen. Can't turn a screw, but can pay someone else to do it for them.

To say that someone not mechanically inclined or not willing to build or repair should stay out of the hobby for safety sake could very well be said for the wonderful world of automobiles. I know lots of good drivers that bring their vehicles in for service or repair on a regular basis, and can afford to do so. And the fact that their car didn't come as a kit, says what I've been saying all along. You don't want to build or don't care what's under the hood, get someone else to do it for you. You buy a Yugo and it fails, your bad for not researching autos. You buy a Mercedes and it lasts forever, Bravo! I don't advocate cheap RTF's, some are available for as much as $2000.00. An RTF is simply a machine built by someone else, even if it's a kit you get an expert to build it for you.

No one needs to be kept out of this hobby due to an equipment or building issue. Many excellent NASCAR drivers do not work on their own vehicle before the race. They drive it, period. Sometimes they crash, sometimes they don't. Whether their mechanically inclined or not, they chose not to handle the tools. They leave that up to guys like you and others that earn their living fixing things others can't.

In our martial arts school, we adapt our style to the individual. We do not try to force the individual to adapt to the style. This way all can benefit and partake, and I think MA is a little more dangerous than Helis, especially on a street combat level. Not all participants can do all the moves or techiniques that others can do, but we make sure all are capable of handling whatever situation comes up. Even if it means dodging a runaway heli and taking out the untrained pilot flying a raptor 90 he built himself cause someone told him he had to. :>) But hey, I'm not arguing just posting to keep this the most popular viewed topic yet.

Seeya!!!!!

Ed

There is a fundamental flaw with your analogy between our heli's and our automobiles. Cars are a necessity, radio control helicopters are not. In the REAL world, auto mechanic shops are prevalent in just about any town or city you go to in this country. Anyone who believes that similar outlets for these machines are as easily accessible are foolish. Even if one did have access to an expert willing to do all of their building and repairs for them, they wouldn't progress at any appreciable rate. I know this because I'm in this position ALL THE TIME working at a hobby shop. I've built and repaired more helicopters than you could ever imagine and 100% of the customers I've done complete build ups as well as post crash repairs for are still not out of the hovering stage.

Your Raptor 90 example also holds little merit. When I advise someone on building their own machine, I always give them advise before and during their build and when they finish, have them bring it back for me to look over/adjust and test fly. My help also extends all the way to field in flight instruction. That's the way this hobby works. I know this because unlike you, I've been around to see it happen time and time again. I've never come across an "expert" telling a newbie to build their own machine and leaving it for them to figure out how to operate it properly. Ultimately, it is still the end user's responsibility to seek out such resources because like I said before, if they don't have enough common sense to do as such, then they have no business trying to fly a heli. Consider it...

[Iceman140]

I don't know where you think you have more experience than I do. I'm 48, you're 20. You sell parts in a hobby store. I've been building machinery since before you were a twinkle in yer daddy's eye. Get a hold of yerself and come down off yer cloud, I know a little more about people and life than you'll ever be able to comprehend right now. When yer 48, you'll get it. Oh by the way, as many in third world countries will tell you, automobiles are not necessary. They've only been around for a little over 100 years. Mankind has been around a little longer than that. But you're young and full of advice for all us old guys, so by all means, give me advice on all aspects of life. I'd love to hear more.

Seriously............but remember, this is not a forum for arguing. If you don't like what I say....don't post. Simple.

Ed

[Al Austria]

I'm sorry but when was the discussion ever about life? I'm not foolish enough to say I have more life experience than anyone here and how you can construe that makes me laugh. My points have been 100% related to R/C helicopters and this hobby and if I'm not mistaken, you stated at the begining of this thread that you were a newbie. That was 6 months ago, I started building and flying these machines 6 YEARS ago. Tell me that you have more experience than than I do in regards to this hobby. Oh wait, you have "10 years experience in high frequency communications and 12 years experience in electro-mechanics" so I guess you must be highly experienced with R/C helicopters by default. Please...

[brunsflyer]

rc hobby is for learning. peeps will not be in rc if they dont like it. so i guess peeps can get a RTF to see if they really think they are into RC heli.


I first got CP pro and hate it. if i didn't like the hobby like i do most peeps prob will quit with the first problem they face. RTF dont FLY. they really suck. send about 500 or so dollars...upgraded to 450se v2 alot better but didnt have that rc feel to it. been into rc nitro 1/8 on-road (love the smell). so upgraded to 600N pro.


So all in all should i have gotten the 600N pro from the get go? and prob save thousands!

don't know but gotta love the rc heli hobby to dish out $10,000.00 in three months.


i'm really broke!!!!!!

[rdlohr]

Gentlemen, Fun, Learning and Mutual Respect is the motto of this particular forum. Reel it back to constructive banter about helicopters please.

Rick

[Iceman140]

It just irritates me when someone says that those less mechanically inclined should stay away from the hobby for safety sake. Who is he to say who should be in this hobby and who shouldn't. Non-sense.

By the way AL, I've been in the hobby since I was 10, 38 years, and yes, electronics is electronics and building is building. Same mechanical ability, same build practices create sucess be it helis, computers, PLC machines or whatever. Nobody has the right to say who has the right to be in this hobby. Maybe negative comments in the past have kept a mechanically inclined person from realising his potential, or maybe someone pre-judged him and told him to stay out of the hobby for safety sake.

Stop throwing out blanket statements. This hobby is for EVERYONE, not just your chosen few. Just glad I was born first or I may have told my Dad to bring back that first P40 'cause someone might not think I could handle the rubberband powered whirling blades of death.

In the meantime, better and better RTF's come out everyday. Some in the 450 series. Most forget that a lot of kits come 90% assembled, so just how much building experience do we need to keep some from telling us we ain't doing it right. This is the same reason I don't argue sports, arguing opinion is a waste of time, especially when one person knows it all.

seeya....again

Ed

[Al Austria]

Your argument is frivolous. I NEVER said that those who aren't mechanically inclined should avoid the hobby. In my first post I said, as quoted:

Like you say, not everyone is mechanically inclined. The truth is that this hobby is not for everyone and some people ought to just stay away, for everyones safety. I have little faith in people who want to get into this hobby but lack the discipline of actually wanting to become proficient working on their own machines. Building, setup, and repair are ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY MANDATORY if you expect to get anywhere in this hobby. As for a newbie not knowing HOW to build or setup a machine, if they don't have enough common sense to consult someone who is experienced or even a forum like this, then they have no business trying to fly a heli.


I was simply drawing on the point that YOU made. You have been flying heli's for 6 months, I have been flying heli's for 6 years, airplanes for 8, and have been around the hobby for 20. It's obvious that you've never been around the types of people that most pilots would agree should NEVER fly.

I knew one fellow who was an EXCELLENT builder but lacked the rationale to operate his machine in a safe manor and environment. He told me he always test flies his machines in his driveway and I told him that he ought to think twice about doing so. What does this fellow end up doing? He ends up loosing control and crashing his brand spanking new Miniature Aircraft X-Cell SE Pro 2K into his neighbor's car. You can call it an accident, but when it comes down to it he didn't have enough respect for the machine or the surrounding property.

There is another good example of one genius who was hovering his Raptor 90 INSIDE a house with other people present. If you do a search for "Raptor 90 indoors" in youtube or google video you can find the vid. This guy is obviously a VERY skilled pilot for handling the machine in such tight quarters, but you won't find me praising his actions as he could have easily killed one of the onlookers.

You need to realize that these are the types of people that "JUST DON'T GET IT". They are the ones who I strongly believe have no business flying a heli. If you still believe that this hobby is for everyone than you are just as ignorant.

[Iceman140]

The truth is that this hobby is not for everyone and some people ought to just stay away, for everyones safety. I have little faith in people who want to get into this hobby but lack the discipline of actually wanting to become proficient working on their own machines. Building, setup, and repair are ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY MANDATORY if you expect to get anywhere in this hobby.

This is your direct quote....no? I build all day long. I don't want my job coming home with me. I just want to fly an relax. Who are you to say what I should do in this hobby? Get it?

Also, like I've said before. Building is building and flying is flying. You're 20 and you state you've got 20 years in this hobby. Must have been one heck of a delivery. "What out!!!!!! He's going inverted in the delivery room!!!!!" Stop trying to make more of yourself than there is. As an instructor I've learned there are 2 types of learning and thinking. Building is mechanical and therefore a left-brained process. Flying, like playing an instrument is artistic and abstract, therefore a right-brained process. Few are 100% left OR right brained, and even less are 100% left AND right brained. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle with a mixture. I am seriously mechanical as my supervisors at work and my instructors in the dojo will tell you. I could probably build a guitar long before I could ever play one. My son tests well for mechanical, but he leans heavily on the artistic side and has taught himself how to play the guitar by ear. He, by the way has absolutely no desire to learn to build guitars, but he plays guitar solos that revile CD's.

If an individual is right-brained and lacks mechanical skills, it doesn't mean he has to learn to build inorder to fly well. But if he listens to you, he may never get into this hobby in the first place cause he doesn't care to build. I say let him buy a kit and have you build it for him. You make money and he gets to do what this hobby is all about anyway, FLYING. If you're in it just for the building, you're a modeler. I know people who do just this. No big deal to me, but apparently a big deal to you because you can't fit them into your mold.

Narrow-mindedness almost always leads to disaster, especially when those with less experience are trying to force it on others. I for one don't want to fit into your mold and I revel in the fact that you can't accept this and move on. My circumstances are different from everyone else's, and I make decisions based on MY circumstances.

Just a point with no disrespect intended. This thread was not started to banter about helicopters. This thread was started to offer a suggestiopn to newcomers not to accept blanket statements coming from "Experts", real or imagined, as law. I encourage everyone to use their brain, in whatever capacity it's in, to weigh the facts and make intelligent decisions based on their own circumstances and life experiences. There are some laws in this hobby that cannopt be broken. Anyone crashing a heli has observed one of these laws, GRAVITY. Physics and electricity have been around longer than most of us, and these laws cannot be broken. What color to paint my canopy, or whether or not I choose to build is opinion, and my choice.

ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY , 2 superlative words meaning no other way, and one such blanket statement. I say nonsense. By the way, I've never advocated anyone operating a heli or any other piece of machinery in a dangerous manner. So finally something we can agree on. There is hope for us yet AL, just don't make me build when I don't want to.

Ed

[Al Austria]

Apparently the phrase "around the hobby" and "in the hobby" are synonymous to you. My dad has been flying R/C airplanes for over 30 years. Ever since I could remember, instead of taking me to church on sundays, he would took me flying. I've attended countless airplane and heli fun flies and various other R/C related events, not to mention that I work in a hobby shop! Most of my closer friends I've met through the hobby. That said, you will never in your life have had as much exposure to this wonderful hobby as I have. I've earned the right to express my convictions about this hobby, regardless of whether or not you agree with them.

As for the "right-brained" example with your son, I've been classically trained on the piano since I was 7 and play at the collegiate level, however, I'm majoring in Mechanical Engineering. Playing the clarinet and sax in my high school's music programs allowed me to perform at venues across the country, and all the way to London. Now, how does all of this relate to the the points I've been stressing? IT DOESN'T! Just like your spiel about left-brained vs right-brained people.

Anyways, I think enough has been said that newbies will know who's advice to take, or rather, who's NOT to take.

I am DONE here.

[BarracudaHockey]

Gentlemen, Fun, Learning and Mutual Respect is the motto of this particular forum. Reel it back to constructive banter about helicopters please.

Rick

What he said.