Newbies-A little note on "Experts" [Archive]

Iceman140

07-07-2007, 03:10 PM

For all of you just getting in to the heli hobby and those considering it, I say welcome! This post may save you a little money in the long run.

I'm new to RC Helis, but have 10 years experience in high frequency communications involving computer and audio/video and telephone network installations. I also have 12 years experience in electro-mechanics which is what I do now for a living. No bragging here, just a background. This experience has helped me weed thru some "expert" advice that just didn't make sense to me.

There are plenty of real experts in these forums. Everything I've seen from Finless has made perfect sense and I trust his judgement. I haven't met all the real experts yet, but in time I hope to. Also as a martial arts student and sometimes instructor, I meet lots of people that come to us and want a black belt right away their first week training. They listen to all kinds of "expert" advice, and at the end of one week, they're still a student with one week's skill, no matter how much money they throw at us. This heli hobby cannot be learned in a week, and no amount of money will make you a good pilot. Time and experience is what it's gonna take.

First consider getting an RTF heli and trust that the engineers that designed it are experts. Have the faith that with a few minor adjustments, servo links and/or gyro gain adjustments, that it will indeed fly right out of the box. The HeliMaxx AxeCP will fly. You will not win any flying comps with it, but it will fly. I think RayK has done a great job modifying it to be the best AxeCP I'll ever see fly. But I have a feeling his work experience and learning to fly first had a part in it. My point is, don't modify until you learn to fly or be ready to spend a lot of money.

I was recently told I needed a magnetic choke coil for my ESC wires to cancel RFI. On the AxeCP my 3-1 mixer/ESC is ty wrapped back to back with my receiver. No way I could possibly get more interference, and my years of network cabling tell me that in that situation, no choke coil is gonna help, so I save money while I learn to fly. I know what chemical composition the plastic on my wires has on "crosstalk" between control wires, and what effect mashing all them wires together with ty wraps will have on the signals coming from the new Gigahertz radios out there. I've had computer IT people come to me and ask why their system crashed. People, making 4 times what I make and much more education, are amazed when I show them one ty wrap on there gigahertz cable that is too tight or shouldn't be there at all. Am I worried? No. I fly the sim, move the stick, up/down, side/side, learning to fly before I modify. Besides, RayK is saving me a heli full of money with his research, and all his mods and wiring diagrams make perfect sense to me which is why inspite of his limited experience in this hobby, I consider him an "expert" I'll listen to along with all the others that have been there and done that.

I hope that as a newbie you'll have the patience to learn and the sense to realise that stapling 100 dollar bills to your new heli will not make you a better pilot. But as with our Karate students, there will come a time when all your patience and constant repetitions of seemly senseless stick movements on a sim, will come to you for real when you seriously need to pull a manuver out of nowhere to save your precious toy from the trash bin.

I am by far no expert in this field or any other, but I hope what you've just read will save you from the disappointments that may otherwise cause you to leave this wacked out whirling wonderland of crashed helis and smashed electronics before you get to the point that some call "Flying without thinking". Any "expert" trying to push you into a mod b4 you're ready, well meaning as he/she may be, is not someone in my opinion that you need to be listening to right now. Maybe later, just not now.

So enough of my yapping and get flying already!!!!!!!!!!

Ed

:fly :fly :fly :fly

joskibob

07-09-2007, 05:50 AM

I kinda disagree with the buying a RTF. If you build something from bottom up you'll have a better understanding of how to put it together WHEN you crash it. It's not if you crash.. its When. But the only problem with that is PRICE. But Its not a bad idea to buy something real simple 4 channel coax to just learn you orientation and see if you wanna stick with the hobby.

I think any 6 channel though should be a kit.

Pinecone

07-09-2007, 02:54 PM

And most RTFs are so hard to fly that they will tend to discourage many people.

You do have a trade off, price over flyability.

Iceman140

07-09-2007, 06:11 PM

You can adjust RTF's simply by moving the servo link wires to a hole closer to the hub. Then they will fly with less response. Almost like flying with less pitch which is what Finless advises newbies to do.

Why take a newbie and make him build something he doesn't understand? Then when he crashes it, how is he supposed to know what he did wrong, building or flying? See what I mean?

I'm not against someone building their own heli. My intent was to keep newbies from chasing their tails following advice from experts, real or in their own mind, doing things they really don't understand. If you can't name the basic parts of a heli, how can you understand building it? Also, local hobby guys I talk to agree with me on this, and they are there to physically see what is wrong with a newbies heli. Online people, as well meaning as they are, simply don't have the full picture without the heli in front of them.

I guess building my own Helimaxx Kinetic 50 would give me a different experience than working with a simple RTF, but when the Kinetic 50 crashes, I don't think I'm going to like it and the repair bill will probably convince me to retreat back to something easier. It's all opinion. It's all from which angle you looking at it.

A friend of mine built a full 3D Plane of fairly descent size and expense without ever have flown anything. Without fully understanding the basics of flight, he went with someone's recommendation in selecting an electric motor that proved to be very much underpowered. Now this 46"+ 3D areobatic airplane fits neatly in a 4x6 box. 17 seconds of flight time and a smashed plane. One very disappointed pilot.

Having a newbie build his own first heli is like having my kid build his own car before I give him driving lessons. :mrgreen:

Face it, we're gonna spend the money one way or another. It's all in how you want to do it. One AxeCP $200 and one Realflight sim $200 totalling $400 and I have a wealth of experience and can recognize when I'm going to crash long before I do and can save myself the grief of repairs. Plus if I can't repair an AxeCP, what would make someone think I can build a TRex 450 or 600? Hmmmm.

oh well....time to going flying guys. Have fun. :glasses2:

Ed

Iceman140

07-09-2007, 07:34 PM

Hey guys,

Just so the newbies have an idea what the numbers are, since we are talking money, I've put together a brief list for a small build it yerself heli and the parts that you'd need.

HeliMaxx Mx400 $90.00
Brushless motor 60.00
ESC 40.00
Futaba GY240 gyro 120.00
3 servos 14.00 ea 42.00
1 gyro servo (I'm guessing here) 30.00
2 lipo batteries 70.00
Good AC/DC charger (you're gonna buy it anyways) 120.00 min.
1 heli radio (6 channel/programmable) 200.00

total $772.00

This heli is not much bigger than the AxeCP
The AxeCP is already built so I know how it's supposed to go together. And if I pay attention taking it apart to repair it, I'll better be able to see how it's supposed to go back together. Better than a bag of parts staring at me on the diningroom table. (I really hate it when they stare at me like that. :mrgreen: )

Again, just my opinion, but I know not every newbie is going to be as mechanically inclined as they'd like to be and certainly not if they've never built anything like a heli in their life.

oh well, just a thought.

Ed

rufusis

07-09-2007, 09:37 PM

Newbie here, good thread. About four months ago I finally got into this hobby.
Found my LHS and walked out with a CX2. Started tapping into all the resources I
could find, especially the Freak. Two weeks later I got G3.5 and started plugging away. Did some upgrades to the CX ("HP" motors, Alum heads, swash, shortened flybar, tail boom, moved the pushrods out on the horns...) Thanks to Bob's vids and input from other Freaks, I have applied techniques of mechanical trimming and blade balancing to the CX. Makes all the difference.

So, with much consideration and research I decided I wanted to build a TRex 450 SE V2. So far I only have my DX7, RX, and a decent collection of tools to show for my endeavor. I feel armed with enough vocabulary and information to confidently make my upcoming purchases (kit, servos, gyro, spares) and do the basic build/setup. I now fly my CX with my DX7. Took me an hour to program it right, reverse channels, set the TH switch, fiddle around with expo... so I am familiar with the basics of my TX menus. When I have everything I need on the bench and get as far as I can myself,
I will go have a local pilot give it the thrice over. Then to the RADD's school.

I don't mean to get off topic, though this is a newbie rant. I haven't the funds to dive headlong into this hobby, which is probably fortunate. Otherwise I might be "stapling 100 dollar bills to (my) new heli..." to be a better pilot.

To the topic: Experts 'they' may or may not be. Do your homework, then listen, or not.
Crosscheck and get other opinions. Be able to offer the appropriate information before asking a question. Too many new threads start off with "Help, I have a problem with ______" and those trying to be helpful have to pry out the necessary details for a solution (esp. on RR.) My next step is to meet some locals at the field and spring for a pizza. One can't help being a newbie, but you can be a well informed one. If only I spent as much time on the sim as I do on these forums...

Iceman140

07-10-2007, 05:25 AM

rufusis-

Great job! This is exactly what my intent was in creating this post. I'll gladly trash a $200 heli learning. But I doubt I will. I have so many spare parts for my AxeCP in a box that Tower Hobbies called me! :mrgreen:

I hate middle of the road anything. I'm not upgrading to a MX400. Not a big enough jump up. But I have the resources the go bigger and know what to expect because I went easier first. Sometimes people forget that an AxeEZ is a RTF too, as are most twin bladed helis.

Keep up the good work. Looking forward to news on your upgrades and mods.

Ed :fly :fly :fly :fly

BarracudaHockey

07-10-2007, 11:42 AM

The nice thing about the hobby is it has something to offer everyone no matter of budget or skill level.

If one wants to start with a full blown nitro and has the money to do so its definately the way to go, they fly better, are more stable and easier to see. There's no really good reason to start small unless you want to spend money over and over. Larger helicopters, unlike airplanes can be set up in a stable "trainer" mode then crank up the throws, stiffen the head and turn up thead speed and lighten the paddles and its a fire breathing beast. There is enough help through the internet, videos and local flying fields that there is no reason a person can't be successful that way.

If you are on a limited budget and throw all your cash into a machine and dont have the money to support it, then you are going to be in for frustration whether its an 90 size Avant or a 200 dollar coaxial.

Building a helicopter is the best way to learn about them, doing the work, doing the research and fixing what you did wrong but you have to make the mental commitment.

The nice thing about the forums, especially the freak, is if you make an outright incorrect statement, the consensus is going to jump all over you pretty quick.

BUT if you only have a small amount of money to commit there are some decent flying small helicopters.

Iceman140

07-10-2007, 03:37 PM

Barracuda Hockey-

Well said. My only concern is when I see newbies running to the LHS or their online source to buy things they don't need at first just cause some expert who's been flying for years has it. Over a period of years these things don't cost much.

But when a newbie buys a digital tach because he sees or hears another guy say he needs one to check his head speed to fly, or he buys a digital laser thermometer because he worries that his $200.00 lipo investment may just go up in smoke if he doesn't, then in my opinion, he's in the hobby because everyone else is and he misses the point of being in it in the first place. Flying the heli.

A cool thing about helis is that when they're not trimmed out, we find out about it within the first 2" off the ground, not 12' in the air when it's too late like some first build planes do. Then we can make adjustments and try again. Even the crashes with my Axe are beginning to go without breakage because of flying the sim and knowing how to "soft crash", if there is such a term.

It's a great hobby, but I have to admitt it was the $800-1000 price tag that kept me out for years. But now that I'm in, and I didn't have to spend a fortune, I'm a happy guy. (And I'm looking at Raptor 90's daily) :mrgreen:

KEEP 'EM FLYING SPINNING SIDE UP!!!!!!!!!!!
(If you have spinning side down, maybe your gyro gain needs adjusting. :dontknow )

Ed

Jermo

07-10-2007, 06:59 PM

Ice,
no offense meant. I agree with the first part of your post that we must all be careful of who we take advice from.

Based on your post I highly suggest nobody follow your advice.
Your Advice followed by an explaination of why it's faulty.
1. Buy and RTF
fault: Manufactures of RTF models do their best to construct a quality product but at the end of the day EXPERIENCE has proven over and over they cut corners. This almost always results in a crash since we enjoy FLYING MODELS. Experieced advice from these very forums advise us to disassemble RTF and apply proper locktight/adhesives where required/necessary and to verify proper assembly.

2. Don't install a ferrite bead (you called it a "choke") on the cables between the RX and ESC.
Fault: Again Experience wins. ESC manfs often shortcut the design. This SOMETIMES results in unexplained glitches and interference. Again refer to these and other forums for your empirical proofs. By bundling the cables you are creating an inductor but you're still susceptable to crosstalk (which has nothing to do with the insulation unless it's conductive....which would mean it's not an insulator :D ). The reason for the ferrite bead is because the switching action of most ESCs often generate harmonics that may be induced on the throttle leads (or even the servo leads based on proximity), The ferrite "choke" acts as a low pass filter to reduce the amount of interference that reaches the reciever.

3. Don't "mod" before you're ready.
This is something I had to read over several times. I agree and disagree with you depending on the circumstance.
Fault: Often new pilot prospects will buy the cheapest copter they can find. These are often beasts to fly even by experienced pilots. In the hands of a pilot prospect they are heaps of broken plastic in mere seconds.
Often, Experience wins the day again. I'll use the T-Rex450XL as an example. With the plastic head components you will find yourself repairing the head ALOT. Yes the parts are inexpensive but as a new Pilot learning you need more uptime than repair time. EXPERIENCE teaches us that metal "upgrades" (if you didn't buy the SE to start) saves you money and frustration in the long run because your copter survives more crashes with fewer parts to replace and MUCH Easier repairs.

One last note I'll share that comes from the experience of this board. If you're serious about learning to fly Helicopters:
1. Get a sim and fly the heck out of it.
2. Get the biggest Helicoptor you can afford to REPAIR. The T-Rex450SE averages $20 plus or minus.

I'm no expert but I can read. I have an Electronics/IT background and education. One thing I've learned when it comes to a debate between books and experience; experience always wins.

I hope you enjoy the AxeCP. I've heard it's a capable small copter although I don't consider it suitable to learn on due to it's small rotor size.

Iceman140

07-10-2007, 08:49 PM

Jermo-

Polypropylene- poly vinyl chloride- and teflon are just three different types of insulation dealt with in high frequency communications. I'd give the the batch number of 10,000 feet of Comscope cable that crosstalked on pair three of all the cables we installed in a medical supply firm, but it would serve no purpose here. The insulation was faulty and traced back to an inadequate cleaning of the machine it was manufactured on. Capacitance is the electrical quality responsible for most crosstalk and YES the type of plastic insulation DOES have an effect on crosstalk or interference between cables. PIC cable is another type of insulation and is used for it's waterproofing capabilities, the P standing for plastic to which no ink or paint will stick and the main reason outdoor plant telephone cable has no tracers on the primary wires. Are you getting the hint that I might know what I'm talking about here? :mrgreen:

Communications terchnician and union electrician for 10 years. My data closet in Marlboro, MA at 3Com/USRobotics in building 3 was used as their example to all their visiting customers as an example of what a quality install should look like.

You missed that on the Axe the 3 in 1 is ty wrapped circuit board to circuit board in the front of the machine. I didn't say ALL helis wouldn't benefit from a choke coil. I also don't think ALL newbies can build a heli on their own. Just cause you and I can doesn't speak for newbies. This was a general recommendation. Not all great formula or Nascar drivers can actually repair their own cars. Not everyone is mechanically inclined. OK?

I do like what you said about experience though. I have yet to meet an electronics engineer or computer IT guy that actually has ladder time. The last electronics engineer I spoke to from Washington DC totally agreed with me as do most IT guys I work with. Knowing what has to be done and actually being able to do it is two different things. They design the pathway, but most often I have to re-design them because what they think they see cannot be done. Experience in building computer networks wins over books and degrees.

Thanks for the time you took to answer though....it was interesting reading. :)

Ed

Iceman140

07-10-2007, 10:14 PM

Hey Jermo-

Just one more time I promise. :)
#1 in your post talks about locktite. Disassembling an assembled heli. Applying locktite in my opinion is an adjustment, not a modification. You are totally correct about the locktite and I agree. But again not a mod. And again, an already assembled RTF will help a newbie to see how they go together in the first place. One step at a time. You and I can't be there everytime to help. Moving the link wires to a less aggressive hole in the servo arm calms down the response and makes flying an RTF easier too. Again an adjustment, not a mod.

I've answered #2 so I won't go there again.

#3 you say the newbie needs more up time. My point exactly. Won't build time be the same as repair time? Time is time. And an experienced technician in these forums has upgraded his AxeCP with metal parts on all but the plastic grips until he learns to fly better. Then the metal ones, which transfer shock throughout the machine instead of shearing off the ball links, will be less of a concern because there will be less crashes. Learn to fly b4 you modify.

You seem to agree with me but as your own point of view and you can't see that I'm saying exactly the same thing. If I claimed to be an "expert", please note the quotes are only for those that aren't really experts, and said a newbie absolutely needed a 14 channel radio to get the proper heli experience, I think you'd answer that post too. I was told by my friends at the local club that $400 would get me what I needed to experience RC airplane flight. I just don't see why it should cost $1000 to get a taste of heli flight. My sim experience has made my crashes happen without need of repair. My last actual repair cost me $1.30. One half of a pair of grips.

I didn't start this post as a place to argue electronics, something both of us know about. It was just meant to help newbies see that some are having a great time without having to sell the farm to do so. I see you are the founder of a heli org. I think that's great! Care to post your total expenses thus far in your heli experience so the newbies can see just how far it can go? Just a thought.
It is quite an addictive hobby no doubt. :mrgreen:

Just one more note. Typing "Fault:" makes you sound like a lawyer about to argue his case. It can be read as offensive, though I didn't take it that way. :wink:

Fly on guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ed

Jermo

07-11-2007, 03:02 AM

Ed,
Good points all around. I guess it was frustrating to read post after post with new pilots struggling with the little RTF toy heli's..ie blade cp/cpp..etc. I know $1000 is alot to spend compared to $200 but based on my personal experience going the $1000 route I had zero issues. In fact most that see me fly assume I've flown for a few years. I started in Feb of 07. I'm working inverted now although my new job and some recerts have me distracted from serious flying. I was averaging 2-3 hours a day on the sim and at least 2-3 flights a day with the real thing (most days are 6-8 flights depending on weather..etc sometimes I only get 1-2 packs out). Since my new job and recert stuff I'm lucky to get 1 hour a week sim and 1-2 packs a week real (although I did break down sunday and fly 6 packs back to back in my front yard).

STarting a club is hard work. The public is often reluctant to help and finding a permanent flying field is a challenge. We had a field lined up but the folks we were dealing with changed the agreement after we spent the money to charter the club. I'm looking for other local fields and have a few promising prospects.

Iceman140

07-11-2007, 05:17 AM

Jermo-

I really appreciate your resonse and sorry if I came off a little strong on some points.

I recently saw a guy that purchased 2 RTF in an hour planes costing $350.00 ea from Tower Hobbies. One he assembled and flew right away w/ no problems, the other he assembled and smashed beyond repair in 5 seconds. He brought it into the LHS and placed it on the counter. When they asked him if he checked his CG, he said," No cause the other one flew just fine and I didn't check that one's CG." So he went off to the stack of nearly RTF expensive planes and was hurriedly asking for help in getting another replacement for the days activities. This guy couldn't even take the time to follow the instructions on checking CG, let alone the complete set if he went with a full build. The fact he had so much money to waste made me think he was one of my overpaid union electrician brothers. :mrgreen:

I am seriously happy that your sucess rate is so high in this hobby. Your experience is definately going to be an asset to the new ones joining your club. One young gentleman I saw was recently helped by someone like yourself. He was flying areobatc planes at the end of his first month out. He listened when they spoke and flew the heck out of his sim. He accidently clipped a tree top with his landing gear and lost one wheel and a mutual friend was there to help bring it home. I always say question authority. But when authority answers, listen. He did.

One thing we are noticing here comparing the AxeCP to the MX400. The tail boom on the Axe seems to be extremely strong. The price of replacements on the MX400 is $6 vs $15 for the Axe. My only guess is the Axe boom needs less replacement and when you sell less you charge more to make up for tied up money in inventory. The aluminum from McMaster's is $5 per 8 feet of 1/2" x .035 stock for the MX400, so the material is not determining price here. The MX400 actually has a "Crash Kit" you can order that has all the parts of the heli aft of the fuselage for $17. I've seen how little it takes to bend them.

I'm hoping everyone gets a chance to read the article on 2.4GHz radios in the new issue of Model Airplane News. Entering the world of Higher speed communications is going to be a challenge for some of the old timers as well as the new ones. If the Rx ant cannot physically "see" the transmit ant, signal will momentarily be lost thus the need for redundant ant and placing them so no matter what position they're in they won't be hidden by other components. Ain't it gonna be great trying to figure out if your fuel tank/battery is gonna be in the way when you're flying inverted so you won't lose control. And for the newbies, lengthening the Rx ant will not work. GHz is a shorter wave length and must see a corresponding ant of exactly the same length to work. Cool reading though.

Well anyways, LET'S GO FLYIN' :fly :fly :fly :fly

Ed

Jermo

07-11-2007, 07:02 AM

Ed,
Good points again. I'd say the CG issues more supports building rather than RTF IMHO because checking/adjusting CG is in the directions (once upon a time I built/flew balsa with monocoat). With cost of parts it's the primary reason for going Align T-Rex450SE over some other brands. Most LHS around here carry the Align parts and due to popularity the cost of parts is low compared to many.

As far as the survivability of the Axe or any other model I can't really say. I lack personal experiece with this specific model. Most of my comments stem from owning a BladeCX and reading/hearing horror stories of the moneypit CP/CPP which LHS sadly push on prospective pilots (which I believe hurts our hobby because every experienced and capable (note the qualifier capable) pilot has said the same thing about starting out: Buy the biggest coptor you can afford and that has come to be further modified to be "Biggest you can afford to REPAIR" which is decidedly different.

Average crash on the Align T-Rex450SE is $20. Some are as low as just a dollar or two from a feathering shaft on up to alot higher. My huge repair bill type crashes didn't come in until I was pushing my skills to doing flips/rolls/loops.

Seeker

07-11-2007, 10:22 AM

Iceman140

07-11-2007, 04:30 PM

Seeker-

You a funny one indeed. :lolol

Capacitance in a high frequency communication wire is called leftover signal to us data guys. And at 300 plus pulses a second to a digital servo, I want my signal to end when I want it to. Two electrical conductors separated by an insulator is a basic description of a capacitor. Vary the chemical comp of the insulator and you can vary the capacitance. Clear as Mud? :lol:

More important is to isolate your control wires from high current sources like a 11.1 volt 20A BL motor. Ty wrapping servo wires close to or with the motor wires is a definate no-no. Especially with high signal counts and coded signals to gyros. Bundling up excess servo wires in a ball and kinking the heck outta them with a ultra tight ty wrap ain't gonna help your flying or diagnosing either. Hurried wiring can cause bent or loose connections too, as will not following Finless's soldering videos. :mrgreen:

So knowing a little about correct and neat wiring practices is indeed more important IMHO than knowing all the ins and outs of electronics.

By the way. If you should happen to have an extra 13 terabyte harddrive you ain't using, I'll buy it off you if the price is right. I need it for my personal crash photos. I have lots of crashes..........and thus lots of photos... some for me....some for the insurance guys and court officials. :lolol

LET's FLY!!!!!! :fly :fly :fly :fly

Ed

djtedatlanta

07-13-2007, 11:25 PM

I am still a newbie but have learned the hard way. The I feel like the only way to start is with a simulator. When you can have 10-15 min flights with out ant incidents, you are ready to purchase your new Helicopter. I unfortunately started way wrong.

1) Blade cp pro $250
I never never flew it for longer than a battery would last. After all my replacement parts and hours of repairs I probably had 1 hour of repair time to one minute of flight. My total spent on repairs was nearly $500.
2) Honey bee King on ebay all metal head brush-less motor, esc, and servo's
I then purchased futaba 401 gyro and futaba 6x radio. gyro $150 radio $200
battery charger $50
battery 1300 $50
I liked this helicopter but I didn't like not being able to purchase parts for it at my lhs. Most of it is compatible with the mx400 and trex450 but some parts have to be purchased online like the main gear, that I stripped the second flight.
3)trex 450 sa $200 crashed twice after short flights costing 2 blade sets and a servo stripped. It didn't cost much to setup because I just transfered everything over from my HBK.
After my second crash I finely bought Real Flight G3 and swore to not fly my trex until I could flawlessly fly the sim. One month later I was flying like a champ!!! I don't do any 3d in the real world but I do on the sim. I am still learning how my helicopter flies, so i'll stick to the basic maneuvers for now.

to make a long story short:
1 Simulator
2 Trex 450 or larger. (small heli's are harder to fly and cost more to fix)

WayneBrown

07-14-2007, 05:33 AM

I'm a proponent of learning on nitro .30's.
15+ minute run times, and a few can be flying for under $800.
You don't HAVE to go for all the bling and fancy crap to learn.

Iceman140

07-14-2007, 08:21 AM

djtedatlanta-

sims are the best!..I'm really not a friend of the Blade CP as an RTF. The frame, skid supports, and tail boom are just too flimsy IMHO. I'm surprised the thing holds up to any crash. My AxeCP, and I might be a little prejudiced, but has proven to be tough as nails. But then I've flown less than 2 hours total on the AXE and 100+ hours on my sim so my crashes are more controlled, and I know when I can save it and when to get it home faster.

Education costs money, I always say. You can spend it now or you can spend it later. Learn to fix you car on your own, or pay for schooling and fix it right the first time. Also buying a newer expensive car instead of a cheap used car and you avoid repairs that way too. It's all in what you like to do. But for me, 10 years building computer networks on construction and 12 years in the electro-mechanical field repairing machines of all types, and I don't mind repairs while I'm getting my "education" with my Axe.

One more thing on RTF 3D's. They're set up at the factory to fly 3D right out of the box and are indeed touchy as hell. Move the servo link wires, all 3, in closer to the servo hub for less response from the stick if it has ccpm, and it will be a little less radical. Check Bob's video and you'll find more info on how to double check that your swash stays level. But I'm feeling that if you moves all 3 link wires on a 120 swash, it will stay level.

WayneBrown-

Great choice. I wish I had a .30 nitro. However time and location here in MA is a factor. To fly nitro anything here, you have to be at a club field or on your own land with lots of room or the man w/ thee badge will shut you down. $125.00 for AMA fees and club fees per year, AMA is required for the insurance, plus traveling to and from the field and only on weekends, really limits my experience. Playing with my heli in the comfort of my shop at home, all the tools and room I need to work, and the backyard to test fly my mini was the way to go for me. However, I just purchased a Dragonus II from HobbyLobby and we'll work on that build when it gets here. Seems Bob is impressed with a lot about that heli so we'll see.

But I hear ya, and I will move into nitro soon as I am able. Hey while I got ya. What do you think of the nitro scents I see advertised? I'd like to try one in Tutti-Fruiti if they have it. :glasses2: (Incognito for this question fer sur.)

GENTLEMEN....TO YOUR HELIS!!!!!! :fly :fly :fly :fly

eD (<-- left the CAPS on again. Hate it when that happens. Doh!)

jgoodwin

07-18-2007, 06:57 PM

I think to each his own, but adding to the line "buy the biggest heli you can afford to repair" or smaller. :-) I know it sounds funny but I will just post my experience.

I bought a E-Sky FP (yes fixed pitch) from e-bay for £50 (less than $100) and proceeded to Radd's, and then moved on to bashing the hell out of it. I should have stayed a little closer to my comfort zone, but I did not and that is another story. The point is it gave me time to do some real research while getting real stick time. I might have bought a Walkera or a EP100 (good but not for learning) as my next heli if I had not bought the FP and gained some time to do research before spending $$$ (or £££).

People have told me that these little FP helis are hard to fly. One time this was said to me while I was while I was flying it nose-in. Yeah maybe they are less stable and yeah maybe you have to chase the tail but I think that has made me a better pilot by teaching me to put the tail where I want it and not letting HH do all the work. Actually I wonder how many of the guys that say this have flown one? I have also seen guys write in forums to get a T-Rex 450 or bigger and throw the FP in the bin (trash). What? Why? Because it is too much of a challenge? It is unstable? It can't fly upside down? Sure, maybe, but it does fly. I have since modified the heck out of my FP and still fly the cr@p out of it. I do nose-in funnels, tail-in funnels, backward flight, stall turns. If i was asked if I would be able to do these things on this heli 6 moths ago I would say no. But doing practice (say... backward flight) on the FP gave me the basics and a cheap repair. Then when I did it on the T-Rex it seemed easy. Also, the FP is the only heli I think I will ever feel comfortable flying out in our street...

I also wanted to point this out, I got a lot of stick time in this last winter without being a member of a club because I bought an FP (put a couple of nicks in the furniture too). I understand the frustration of all the .30 and above pilots answering newbie questions about helicopters like the one I learned to fly on, but people are going to keep buying them (send them to RC Groups, there are more Micros and Minis there). If these guys don't know if they can run Lipo on their new Twister how are they going to know whether they need speed or torque (or a combination) on the tail of a CP?

To sum it up. I bought a used FP in November 06. Flew the cr@p out of it while learning loads from this forum and others (also learned about their cultures). Bought a T-Rex 450 for Christmas 06. Started flying the cr@p out of that. Now I am improving my flips, rolls, and working on inverted hovers and rainbows.

Did I go about it wrong? In many eyes I sure did. Did I enjoy it and learn a heck of a lot along the way? I sure did. Did I waste the total of around $200 I spent on the helicopter (including parts)? I don't think so and I am not throwing it in the trash either. This is not the best route for all by far, but it was not the wrong route for me. These Helis are allowing a lot of people in to the hobby (much to some peoples dislike I think). Thousands of people are buying and flying cheap plastic helicopters and many are doing well. A majority of them have never set foot in this forum. Many of them may never upgrade and may never join a club. It is a new world and the cheap helicopters are not going away, right or wrong

Not directed at anybody. Just my story (and some opinions... :-)

Take care,
J

Jermo

07-18-2007, 07:42 PM

Jgoodwin,
I think it's awesum you were able to learn on the little FP bird. You are more the exception than the rule. The only folks around where I live that I've seen with the toy choppers are kids. Usually they are at the LHS looking for parts. If you take the time to speak to them they are frustrated and can't believe how hard it is to fly choppers. The typical experience with what I call the toy class chopper is less than dismal. When a novice starts out with something a bit bigger things are a bit more forgiving.

To each their own. Just consider that everytime a novice throws his toy chopper in the trash we've lost a piece of our future in this hobby.

Why make it harder than it has to be?
just my 2c.

jgoodwin

07-18-2007, 08:23 PM

Jermo,

You are right that they cheap helis are probably not doing the sport any favors, but if you can't fly one of these at all... I think I learned to fly it for a few reason: because I was determined, I saw others who could fly them well, and I never believed it was impossible. It would have been easier to fly a bigger bird. It would have also been once a week and cost a lot more than charging a couple of 7.4v lipos. I flew almost everyday and I still do, but more with the Rex now.

I also think I am right in that most of the kids you talk to would not be able to buy (nor support) a nitro bird much less get anywhere to fly one. The kids start cheap. They should just by good and cheap, not rubbish and cheap. There is a difference between Walkera and E-Sky (Blade). There is also a difference between FP and CP (like CP2), the FP is NOT a CP2. Also, if it was not for the cheap helicopters many would not even try. The ones that learn they quickly upgrade. The others seem to give up.

I also think that some people have more of a nack for these things than others, and the ones that don't have the nack are more likely to by a 'toy' and then have loads of questions/problems.

When you say toy, I think of CX or Mosquito or something though. Try doing piro circuits on one of those!

Take care,

Jay

PS Are the ones that throw their helicopters away the ones you want in the future of you hobby? You do not have to answer that!

Iceman140

07-18-2007, 09:42 PM

Jay-

Good points. I agree. Again the $1000.00 price tag of the 90's kept me out for a along time. Also, the electric side wasn't developed well enough yet to offer an affordable and workable option.

I don't really repair my AxeCP much, but the repairs I do teach me a lot of building techniques. I'm building a Dragonus II Plus ($158) now, and with a Futaba GY240 gyro and lipo batt and $120 charger, and all else comes in at a little under $700. Still a lot for a beginning teenager to put out. My full workshop of tools for working on just about anything from helis to houses, makes it easy to do a lot of things, so the frustration level goes down. Micrometers, precision screwdrivers, clamps, even glues and stuff are big expenses at first. My magnifying worklight alone was $30, yup old guys need help with small screws, let alone the workspace needed to build and keep the shop organized.

So while some are outfitted to do it right from the start, my list of tools and supplies plus the heli cost would send some guys looking for another hobby.

We need more support right now for our flight field which is coming under zoning issues from an irrate neighbor who can't tell that the real airplane flying over her house is actually not us. There is an airport 1 mile away. That's OK, the F15's are coming to the 104th, then we'll see how she handles the "noise" from those babies. More people in the club means more voices at town meetings. I also can't say that you are the exception rather than the rule simply because I do not have the worldwide statistical data in front of me to make such a statement. Sorry Jermo, but this is exactly what I mean when I tell newbies not to listen to unfounded expert advice. Maybe Jay is the rule or maybe it's even odds. Without the worldwide data no one can say what the average repairs cost on a TRex 450 is either. Only facts are facts.

Oh well, keep flyin' and tryin'!!!!!!! Thx for posting.

Ed :fly :fly :fly :fly