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Bjorn
08-09-2007, 04:01 AM
Ok, I will post my findings when I get the motot. I do not have an eaglethree logger, but I have a whattsup meter and will check the ampdraw and voltage with that....
I hope for the zpower to have a bit more torque since it is wider than the z30, but this remains to see when the motor is mounted and tested :-)
Bjorn

shauntot
08-09-2007, 06:26 AM
Hi Bjorn, are you planning to use 6s on that new motor? Hope it's 6S, as I'm really looking for a motor that can do what the XL can do on 6S, but of course without the snapping shafts :)

Bjorn
08-09-2007, 07:12 AM
That was my idea yes.
The only reason I want to try this is a broken shaft on my xl also, it only lasted about 20 or so flights.
Looks like I'll have to wait for a few days for the motor, but I'll try to manage with my rather anemic 600l for a while...
Funny thing that: You do not notice the powerincrease so much when going from 600l to 600xl, but when it is the other way around......

csell
08-09-2007, 08:23 AM
Hello Shauntot and Bjorn

Until now I belived that Shauntot was searching for a motor that fit in the standard frame, but now I se you both
consider motors that require modifications to the frame.

The Z-Power motor 1050 KV is 159 Euro. In this pricerange is other posibilities.
Have you considered NEU, they make motors for 6S, higher priced motor that fit and lower priced motors that require frame modifications:

Quote" The 1512H/1.5 and 1515/2.5D have proven to be very popular with the Trex 600 Helicopters when running 6S lithium battery packs. Use a 10-11 tooth steel pinion gear and you will have a cool running 3D machine on the hot summer days. All the versions of the 15 size motors are available with the “H” style case and cooling fan.
We are happy to introduce a helicopter specific version of our popular 19 series motors. The first ones to be available are the motors that have proven to be the motor of choice for the hard flying 3D versions of the Trex 600. For 8S setups the 1910H/1Y is the motor to beat. On 10 S the 1912H/1Y is the king! Coming soon will be the 1907H/1Y for the 6S lithium battery fliers."

This quote is from http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/Heli%20Motors.html

On a subpage I read that 1907/1Y will get a MSRP of $173

Regards Carsten

Bjorn
08-09-2007, 08:43 AM
Hehe, yes but it has already been....
I would like to try something that has not been tried already....
It could very well be that the motor I want to try is a big miss although I dont think it will be too far away my expectations.

shauntot
08-09-2007, 09:37 AM
carsten - for me, i simply want a motor that will fit with no mods to the frame, will give at least same power as XL, and of course use 6S packs. No NEU motors for me, unforunately, however good they are, way just too expensive for me :)

so Z-power is what I'm looking to, the problem is, which one? :)

csell
08-09-2007, 11:17 AM
Hello Shauntot.

The Z-Power Motor 1150kV in Bjorns link to 159,00 EUR has a Diameter of 48mm and
does not fit in a standard Align T-Rex 600 Frame. It have the same size as a ZPower Z50.

The only motor that I know of that fit, is the ZPower Z30 or a rebranded one.
I am sorry, I think you are back and must consider the Z30-1100?

For other people following this thread I want to show that the new 1907/1Y with a MSRP of $173 will be cheaper when it is introduced, than the LOGO Z-Power Motor 1150kV.

The Z-Power Motor 1150kV cost 159 Euro, that is equal 159 x 1.38 = 219 US$

Regards Carsten

shauntot
08-09-2007, 08:24 PM
hi carsten, yeah, i think z30a-1110 is the way to go, the only thing is, nobody else aside from Rocket Man has had real world experience if it compares to a 600XL. And too bad he had crashed it already ruining the chances for more data.

dilemma right now is this (remember I need a 6S motor, not the Neu of course, that will drop in the frame without mods that will give the same power as a XL)

my choices are:

600L - i can get this for the same price as a Z30A-1110, but i the power wouldn't be the same as a 600XL (like what bjorn had said) - this motor runs very hot as well from other user's reports

600XL - power-wise is ok for my flying style, i could always get this, but again, there's always that shaft problem which could spring up and cause a crash. can't really tell if you're getting a good or bad motor just by looking at the serial numbers, supposedly the ones with the serial numbers are the good batch, but mine had a serial number and it still failed

Z30a-1110 - not enough data to say it has the same performance as a XL if it's used on 6S.

now what to choose.. :)

csell
08-10-2007, 02:41 AM
Hello.

Yesterday I asked in HeliFreak's Mikado Logo Helicopters forum for more information on Bjorn's Z-Power Motor 1150kV.

If we have a questen, why not ask the experts next door?

Here is a link to the answers:

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=42570

I will not comment on it, but please consider, why somebody began thinking on using it?


Shauntot, I think you list your choices very well, and I understand why you consider not to bay a 600XL, but have you really considered, which of the other two has most power?


When I think one month back, when I deceided and wrote in the long thread, I belived that a Z50 was the right choice for other people, but I would choose the Z30 myself, as it fits the frame.

But I didn't order a Z30, I was not sure. Then I got a dremal ( on sale ), really didn't want to make the cuts myself. Ask a friend to do it for me, but found out, that it was so easy, I can only recomend others to do the same. May be you also know somebody that will help you to do the cutting?

Cutting in the frame is a way to increase your options without to have to pay money for it.

I will later today or tomorrow make a better description on cutting in the frame and post it together with larger pictures in my long thread.

Shauntot, as I se it, you have the posibility now to deceide for one of the above 3, or look into what options you have if you consider to cut in your frame?

Z-Power Z50 is stronger and only a little more expencive than a Z30, I think Z50-800 can run on 6S with a high teeth number pinion, but what setup to choose?

I don't know your time schedule?

Regards Carsten

stevehonn
08-10-2007, 06:01 AM
Trevor Burley, a Sportsman competitor at 3D Masters is using a Z30-1100 in his Trex 600 although his is flybarless using the CSM Cycloc system. They have only got the video up of his set manouvers so far but it gives a good indication of the ability of this motor http://www.fly3dx.com/3dMasters2007/TrevorBurleySetMan.wmv

I've tried this motor on my Trex 600 and found it a little lacking with a tendancy to bog fairly easily but Trevor reckons that it manages very well in a flybarless machine due to the 20% lower power requirements.

csell
08-10-2007, 06:33 AM
Thanks Steve.

Great video, and we had wondered, if this motor has enought power?
I will look more into the CSM Cycloc system.

Now I had updated the Frame Cutting Description in post # 124 of:

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=39527&page=13

Regards Carsten

shauntot
08-10-2007, 08:41 AM
carsten - thanks again for your info, ok, now I'm thinking to get a z50 because of steve's post. I think I can consider cutting the frame, although mine is aluminum so it maybe a bit harder to cut than the CF frame.

btw, are u using 6s on your setup right now using the z50-800?



steve - thanks for posting that, I understand from your post that the z30 bogs easily with on the 600. I don't have the best collective management, so i MAY steer away from it. as you've said, it maybe fine on the 600 if it's flybarless, but with the cyloc system, that's not going to be the choice for me. I'd rather just get a Neu 1515/2.5d/f if I had to pay that price. So unfortunately this again limits my option :(

saw the video, and i don't fly anywhere as good as that. I wonder if trevor used 6s. when you said that when you used the z30 on your 600, it bogs easily. how do u fly if i may ask? hard 3d? if you flew it hard, and it bogged, im thinking that i may be able to get away with using the z30 as i don't do 3d anyway, sport flying only, and some tictocs thrown in here and there. eager for your real experience opinion as well :)

csell
08-10-2007, 10:11 AM
Hello Shauntot.

No, I have not tryed the Z50-800 yet.

My old setup was standard Align ESC with 600L and a FP 4900 mAh Lipo,

I didn't want to bay 2 more 6S lipos and deceided to aim for a Castle
Creations Phoenix 85HV ESC, Z-Power Z50-800 motor and some a123 Batteries.
Still waiting for the a123 batteries.


May be I was a little to fast suggesting the Z50-800.

I am sorry, I know the reasen, I remembered this page:

http://wattsuprc.com.au/product_detail.asp?pid=ZP50

where it at the end says: Input power: 6-10 Li-xxx

and it is also now Out of stock.


When I else look at it, I will more consider Z50-800 as a 8S Lipo motor,

but If you consider to cut in your alu frame there must be other options?

Regards Carsten.

stevehonn
08-10-2007, 10:35 AM
Trevor was using a 6S Revolution 4800 pack for the flight shown.

I'm not a hard 3D man but do push quite a bit, the Z30 would be fine for sport flying and with a set of 550mm blades it's basically the same setup as my E550 which performs very well.

Even though the motor was bogging its still landed barely warm and in hindsight I had left the motor timing at mid, I know that Axi outrunners prefer to run on high timing and I didn't try this option with my setup.

It's very difficult to give advice as peoples flying skills and expectations vary so much but I do know that the performance wasn't up to the level of Trevors flybarless system.

kgfly
08-10-2007, 10:46 AM
I wonder about cutting the frames when you can get after-market market G10 frames like Rotorworkz HFE so cheaply (about $85) :shrug: Amongst other advantages these frames allow you a wider choice of motors without modification. In the overall cost of a T600, $85 isn't that much. Think of it as making the Z80 cost $200 vs $300 for the Neu that will fit in your current frames.

csell
08-10-2007, 12:13 PM
Hello.

Finless wrote 07-29-2007, 05:42 PM in a another thead:

QUOTE: Charlie (yes rotorworkz) has 3 frame choices for the 600.

1) A stock G10 frame set that are a direct replacement for Aligns frames. Some changes are in opening in the frame to allow larger motors and such.

2) the HFE (Helifreak edition) which are design to remove all the servo bell cranks and use smaller servos like the 9650's direct to the swash. THis is all to lighten up the heli. It also allows for the motor to be mounted on top thus improving weight distribution around center. and allows for larger motors.

3) The HFX (Helifreak Xtreme). THis is a new design that allows use of larger full sized servos direct to the swash (no bell cranks). It has some pretty cool features like servo output shaft brakets to better support the servo output shaft for direct to swash connection. I will be doing a build series on these frames like I did for the HFE.

Hope this helps,
Bob


As I understand it, has Shauntot a T-Rex 600 ALU with full size servos, acording to Finless is HFE not a option as it uses smaler 9650's, but may be one of the other two?

Kgfly, I think Shauntot is in a very similar situation, as I was about one month ago, but I can't se the right solution? You then helped me, do you have any ideas?

If I was in the same situation, I will consider the coming NEU 1907/1Y with a MSRP of $173 and cut in the frame, but is there other alternatives?

Regards Carsten

shauntot
08-10-2007, 11:25 PM
Steve - thanks for the info. 550 blades aren't an option unfortunately down here in SG, good 550 carbons are hard to come by. I'd like to stick with my radix 600. i agree with u, it's pretty hard to give advice, so i was hoping someone reading using the same setup would pop a video so at least we can see how the motor performs. oh well... :)

Kgfly - $30 for 1 side of the Rotorworkz G10 frame, so $60 for both. pretty cheap :)

http://www.rotorworkz.com/html/600_stock.html

unfortunately - i think it still won't work if I get a bigger motor such as the Z50-800, unless it works good on 6S.

My target is to get a motor that will work on 6S, so I can use my existing packs and not have to get new lipos. If the z50-800 works nicely on 6s, then i'll get them rotorworkz frames :)

kgfly
08-11-2007, 02:57 AM
Taking another look it seems to me that at 800kv the Z50-800 seems poorly suited to a 6s setup. So your choice in terms of what others have used and reported on seems to be amongst:

600XL (1650kv, ~$125) - fits current frame, plenty of performance
Z30A-1100 (1110kv, ~$105) - fits current frame, probably adequate performance
Neu 1512H/1.5Y (1900kv, ~$250) - fits current frame, plenty of performance
Neu 1515H/2.5D (1700kv, ~$300) - fits current frame, plenty of performance

There are possibly some other options other brands but if so I have not seen them mentioned in the forum discussions. It has become apparent that for a 6s setup there is no need to modify or replace your frame and that if you want to follow an well know and tested 6s setup then really it is between the 600XL and the Neu. The Z30-1100 will definitely work but there is a small risk it will fall short of your expectations. Of course at only $105 you are not taking much of a risk, if you don't like I bet you could sell it easily and get a Neu anyway.

shauntot
08-11-2007, 08:16 AM
thanks for the sum up KGfly. I agree it's either 600XL or Neu for a tried and tested 6S setup, unfortunately the XL seems a hit and miss if you luck out on a motor with the shaft problem. I'm now considering the Neu 1512H/1.5Y or 1515H/2.5D as well, I'm gonna have to fork out extra money but at least it'll be a quality job.

Went motor hunting today and saw this, not sure if it's known there in the US, it's made in France, can I ask for your opinion on this motor based on the specs below, as I'm no electronics guru :) it looks like it can run on 6S, KV is almost identical to a Neu 1515H/2.5D. Around $200 USD and will fit stock frame.

Type: Brushless Outrunner
Bearings or Bushings: Ball Bearings
RPM/Volt (Kv): 1742
Resistance (Ri): 0.017 Ohms
Idle Current (Io): 2.4A @ 6V
Maximum Burst Current: 80A (1600 watts)
Cells: 4-8 Li-Po / 14-20 Ni-Cd/Ni-MH
Speed Control: 70-80A Brushless
Weight: 270g (9.5 oz)
Overall Diameter: 44mm (1.7 in)
Shaft Diameter: 5mm (0.2 in)
Overall Length: 53mm (2.1 in)

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/rcmsec/Models/ElectricAirplanes/Motors/Cyclon-Heli.html#heli1600

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=CYLH1600

http://www.cyclonbrushless.com/images/data%20CY.pdf

kgfly
08-11-2007, 09:25 AM
I am far from an expert but happy to share my opinion ;)

I have not come across that brand before so have no idea of their reputation.

The Cyclon Heli 1600 motor is about the same size and weight as a Z30-1100 which for comparison is rated at 67/84A, 1450/1800W (cont/max). The higher KV of the Cyclon will mean a smaller pinion which all else being equal, could mean less bogging but the lower KV of the Z30 could mean more torque which could also mean less bogging. The Cyclon specifications show it to be slightly more efficient.

The Cyclon is twice the price of the Z-Power so for me, given it is an unknown brand and from the specifications does not seem to offer a huge advantage, I would probably choose either the Z30 as a budget motor or stretch to the Neu as a known high performance solution.

shauntot
08-11-2007, 10:27 PM
Hi Kgfly - hmm, didn't realise that the specs of the cyclon and the z30a were about the same, i thought the higher kv played an important role of being more efficient, vs. more torque for the lower kv.

for the 600, what would be better?

shauntot
08-13-2007, 10:36 AM
ok i'm sold on the Z30A-1110 coz of this (vid courtesy of Ash of Trextuning using the old Z30 version)..looks and sounds alright...A should be even be better.

http://media.putfile.com/T-Rex-600-3D-Flight

Getting one this week from LHS, I'll be sure to post a FDR graph for you folks looking for a cheaper alternative to the Neu or more reliable XL motors. If it doesn't satisfy, then it's time to get a Neu :)