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freestyledork
04-19-2012, 02:23 AM
Looking to build a solid Chaos 600 bird. Looking for a mix of reliability(performance) and price.

Most everything I am looking to buy is off the RCA site. Comments are encouraged as my first heli was a RTF Blade 450. I know how to take that thing apart completely and put it back together without looking at a manual. I'm ready to upgrade. End goal is a reliable AP ship, no need for 3D.

List of parts:

CHAOS 600 PRO LIMITED EDITION FLYBARLESS KIT - TORQUE TUBE
link (http://www.scaleflying.com/Chaos-600-Pro-Limited-Edition-Flybarless-Kit--Torque-Tube_p_2317.html) $350
CASTLE CREATIONS PHOENIX ICE 2 120HV BRUSHLESS SPEED CONTROL
link (http://www.scaleflying.com/CASTLE-CREATIONS-PHOENIX-ICE-2-120HV-BRUSHLESS-SPEED-CONTROL_p_1728.html) $230
SCORPION HK-4035-630, 6MM SHAFT
link (http://www.scaleflying.com/Scorpion-HK-4035-630-6mm-Shaft-_p_1828.html) $170
4x HYPERION ATLAS DH 20X GCD FULLY PROGRAMMABLE HIGH VOLTAGE DIGITAL SERVO
link (http://www.scaleflying.com/HYPERION-ATLAS-DH-20X-GCD-FULLY-PROGRAMMABLE-HIGH-VOLTAGE-DIGITAL-SERVO_p_2334.html) $45x4
SKOOKUM SK-720 6-AXIS FLYBARLESS SYSTEM
link (http://www.scaleflying.com/Skookum-SK-720-6-axis-Flybarless-System-_p_1834.html) $400
5000 40c zippy 6s
link (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__9965__ZIPPY_Flightmax_5000mAh_6S1P_40C.html) $60x4

New Tx/Rx?
Total so far: $1570

Things that I need to look into.. new Tx/Rx. I have a DX6i and have heard you need at least a 7 channel Tx for use with sk720. Also I've done some research but motors and ESCs confuse me. I don't know exactly what I need so some clarification would help me a ton. For the batteries I see a lot of people run 12s, to they run in parallel or series? whats better for longer flight times? I eventually plan on having a 5-7lbs payload. Sorry if some of the questions are noob questions. I started this hobby 2 years ago and have been completely self taught. THANKS!

Valkman
04-19-2012, 05:14 AM
"Looking for a mix of reliability(performance) and price." but it looks like you bought the most expensive parts! lol
If you are thinking about AP then you do right to get the ship itself well set up.
If people are using 2 batt packs they are using them in series to double the voltage. I would recomend this for your intentions. The 6s is ok but most use 12s. If you go this route make sure you electronics can take it.
Use a seperate battery to power your electronics. Most use 2s lipo for AP and power the camera servos from this also.
You are going to use a lower head speed so bear this mind when buying your motor. Maybe below 1800 RPM.
If I was you I would buy a 8ch or more tx. Not unless you are going to have a partner with their own TX / RX to control the camera which is the way to go.
I myself am thinking of converting my 600. There is so much info out there and so many different setups its mind blowing.
Good choice on the SKOOKUM SK-720. I beleive this is the best one for AP. I was looking at this one myself.

freestyledork
04-19-2012, 12:30 PM
Thanks for your response. How do I figure what motor is a good choice for <1800rpm? is the esc a good choice? Not over powered?

Valkman
04-19-2012, 01:03 PM
To calc your HS use HS Calculator like this one
http://www.heliguy.com/MotorPinionCalculator.html

Sorry this is for calculating your pinion but you get the idea and it still can be used.
The 1800 RPM is only a guess. Some go way below that. Its all to do with your setup and vibration on the camera. For instance you may get the "jelly" look on a video at 1800 revs and at 1700 the video is sharp.
I would buy the 120 amp ESC. Your going to be lifting around a lot of weight. Yes the amps used goes down when you increase the voltage with more batteries but its better to be safe.

freestyledork
04-19-2012, 01:12 PM
Thanks Valkman! :cheers

Ill do some research today and see if I cant revise the list.

freestyledork
04-19-2012, 01:48 PM
looking into the motor some more looks like the one I picked should be ok.
at 85% efficiency 44 volts 14 tooth pinion I get 2000 RPM. wouldn't the ESC be able to govern the motor down to 1800,1700,1600? what are some things that I would consider in picking a motor for these head speeds?

Valkman
04-19-2012, 03:11 PM
No matter what motor you pick, you will still want the ESC to be working around 85% throttle at the desired HS. So if you are at only 50% throttle at you desired HS there will be probs.
Here is some links for you to have a look at. I like the setup with the camera in the front. You can easliy make this up your self with a couple of tail booms and Fiber Sheets.
You can put the batts at the rear to ballance.

http://www.photoshipone.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6

The next artical is a good read with video you can pause and have a closer look at the setup.

http://www.diyphotography.net/photographer-rigs-a-canon-7d-to-an-rc-helicopter

freestyledork
04-19-2012, 03:33 PM
Ill take a look at those links. I am pretty familiar with photoshipone. Altho I am going to try and make my own camera mount. It's half the fun. Attached is a image from a design I had to make a pan/tilt/roll for a gopro on a 450 size.

I originally posted about the build in the AP forum not had very little help from anyone. Glad to see someone is willing to help a noob.
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/2719/cameramount.png

freestyledork
04-19-2012, 03:53 PM
No matter what motor you pick, you will still want the ESC to be working around 85% throttle at the desired HS. So if you are at only 50% throttle at you desired HS there will be probs.

could you explain that a bit better as the wording is confusing me.

Valkman
04-19-2012, 06:03 PM
What I mean is the motor works more effecient closer to 100 % throttle. The ESC works better also. If you want a lower headspeed instead of just lowering your throttle which could cause the motor and ESC to heat a lot ( bad ) you put in a smaller pinion. This will allow the headspeed to be lower and the motor to run at the higher rev. Another plus is extra torque. So bear this in mind when you buy your motor.
Im not sure what route I am going with my mount. The one you show in the underhung one. I won't be doing anything for a couple of months anyway.

freestyledork
04-19-2012, 06:19 PM
AHH I see. ya. the underslug was designed for a 450 size. I am going with a 3 axis mast design to keep the center of gravity good. Whats a good power to weight ratio to go for sport flying (I guess the equivalent of AP flying)?

freestyledork
04-19-2012, 07:53 PM
I think I am finally getting the hang of this...

using ecalc (http://www.ecalc.ch/helicalc_e.htm?castle&units=imperial&weight=6.6&calc=auw&elevation=700&airtemp=70&batteries=lipo_5000mah_-_35/50c&s=12&p=1&esc=cc_phoenix_ice_hv_120&motor=scorpion&type=hk4035-630&rotor=normal&diameter=53.15&pitch=12%C2%B0&rotorteeth=170&motorteeth=13)

looks like my watt/ weight with a 12lb load is 330w/lbs I figure with the camera and mount 12lbs is about where Ill be.

Valkman
04-20-2012, 05:06 AM
That's actualy the one I would have giving as I have it in my fav's on this PC.

freestyledork
04-22-2012, 11:36 PM
whats a good watt rating for a charger to charge 6s 5000mah? from what I looked at, the batteries I picked can be charged at 3c. 3*5000=15000mah or 15 amps. 15a*22.2v= 333. So I figure 333 watts would charge the batteries at max charging rate of 3c which is 20 minute charge time. 1c= 5000mah or charged in 1 hour at 5amps? is this correct?

Valkman
04-23-2012, 05:21 AM
Yes I think that is right. The 1 hour would be more like an hour and 10 mins as it slowly builds up the charge rate at the start and even more slows it down when the voltage reaches it's peak.
When buying your charger pay attention to the input voltages. They may say it has a million watts but this is at say 18 or 24 volts input.

Valkman
04-27-2012, 04:47 PM
I'm thinking more now of the under mount one. If you get the balance just right on it you can quickly take it off and put back on the skids and you got your 600 back. It will also make it handy to mount a smaller camera later for FPV in front of the battery. The small camera would weigh a bit like the canopy so it keeps the balance about the same.
Now to decide how to make it!

Superhornet
04-28-2012, 12:45 AM
Just a little advice from experience; I'm currently flying a Canon 7D on my modified Chaos 600. Started with the combo kit on 6S with a Photoship One 2X gimbal but flight time was limited to 4.5 min. Now stretched to an 800. Everyone I've spoken with that has used them, says the underslung camera mounts can cause a pendulum effect making it difficult to obtain good footage. I've been flying with a flybar, but just finished installing my Skookum 720 and will be getting the GPS as soon as it's available (possibly in a few months I'm told). For any significant camera weight, you'll definitely want to stretch the airframe to 700 or 800 and go 12S. This will significantly improve flight time and overall performance. You can also save some money on the ESC with an 80A HV setup.- As an AP ship, (especially on 12S) you won't be drawing that many amps. The motor should have high torque and low Kv, somewhere around 450 - 500 for proper headspeed. If you intend to do this professionally, it will need to be a dedicated airframe. If you want to fly sport or 3D I'd get another heli for that. The front mounted gimbal keeps the camera and gear weight closer to the centerline of the heli which helps maintain cyclic response. You'll also need to consider a good downlink with ground base monitor and another radio system for the gimbal. Your existing DX6 should work well for that. As far as radio system, I would suggest getting the best you can afford, but some things to look for would be at least 2048 resolution and at least 8 channels. I found a good JR XP9503 here on Helifreak for my rig. On a ship this big, I wouldn't go full FPV, let the gimbal operator look through the camera and for safety (as well as legally) you need to keep line of sight on it. I do use an Eyetop perripheral display (basically sunglasses with one video monitor off to the side for one eye) for referrence to help position the heli for the camera operator, but I always keep line of sight. Last thought; make sure you're video downlink is on a different frequency than your heli radio, I use 5.8Ghz but I've heard that the 900Mhz systems are very good as well. I'd stay away from the 2.4Ghz systems that can interfere with controlling the heli with most modern radios. You should also check on if you need a ham radio operators license depending on the frequency and power of the downlink. (I've never heard of any operators being asked for it by the FCC while in the field, but there's always a first) Best of luck to you and most of all have fun!

Valkman
04-28-2012, 06:50 AM
That's great advice my friend. I was thinking more on it last night and I am going to make the front camera mount version. One of the reasons apart from what you mentioned is it will help my older eyes see the longer heli! I also have a hell of a lot of new heli parts lying around so I should be able to make the mount up. I got two new 60 tail booms from a raptor to make the forward mount. My plan so far is..

Make camera mount.....100-130 $

Buy a cheap Radio for camera operater.I will also be able to use 2 gyros and servos I have lying around to sabilize the camera. 100 $

FatShark goggles with download link........ 250 ?

New Camera.................400$ May buy second hand there is some real bargains out
there now.
After that it's as you mention. Ill see how I get on and maybe do a motor and ESC and voltage change and then a stretch.

Total 800 $ ish.
I will more than likely make it dedicated. I have to 450 and 500 for fun and I could even use the fatshark on them also for fun!
I may be bouncing you a few questions along the way.:lol:

Superhornet
04-30-2012, 03:13 AM
It all depends on what you want to do this for. If you want to just have fun, test your engineering skills and take some pictures, maybe a little video to share with your friends or post on youtube, you can definitely do well with a Gopro camera and a clipon mount or whatever gimbal you can come up with. You could even keep your heli set up for sport/3D and get good results. If you want to do it professionally it's a whole other ballgame. I happen to work in the entertainment industry and have regular contact with people seeking aerial video so the final product I'm trying to acheive may require more money and time than most people would care to put into it. All up, I've invested more than $2,500.00 in my helicopter and gimbal systems alone, not including the (2) radio systems, chargers, batteries, etc... and I have much more than that invested in camera equipment. There's a reason the turn-key camera helicopter systems cost upwards of $20,000.00. But I digress... If you're happy with your results and you're having fun doing it, that's priceless.

Valkman
04-30-2012, 06:26 AM
Many thanks for your valuable input aagin. I was doing a lot of thinking and research over the weekend in between house jobs my girlfiend had for me:lol:
I have the drawing more or less done for a 3 axis gimble based on other setups and the drawing on the first page. However I might just go 2 axis for time being and keep costs down and keep it simple.

WHats in the gimble...........
The 2 axis gimble should take 4 sheets of carbon fiber ( 8 * 12 at 8.99 ea ) to make. The pivot points I think I can make up someting out of lots of heli/tail heads and bearing and bearing mounting blocks.This should be cheap to make but but if I get more into it I can convert to 3 axis and it will be strong enough to take weight.
I am thinking of going the 360 servo route. Thanks for your message on that Hornet.
You can modify a servo or buy Hitec 360 servo for 15 dollars ea,
I more than likely be putting on 2 *401 gyros.
How I plan to strap the gimble to the heli is two tail booms connected at the rear with a vibration damper and a 100mm RC truck damper at the front like what some ther setups are. These will be supported with carbon fiber from the 4 sheets ordered for the gimble.
Im at a halt now because I have to source the gears for the servos. The ones to step down the gearing. I need one large one for the arm and a small one for the servo.

Superhornet
04-30-2012, 02:34 PM
If you have a good source for carbon sheet let me know. $8.99 for an 8"X12" sheet seems pretty inexpensive. What thickness is it? I was looking at 2 to 2.5mm minimum thickness for proper stiffness. I haven't been able to find that kind of pricing per Sq.Ft. (of course I'm looking for 12"X16" size sheet).
There are a few places to get gears for the servos and gimbal. Photoship One does sell these separately and servocity.com has them as well. You might try googling robotics or robot servo gears and see what you come up with.

Valkman
04-30-2012, 05:02 PM
I typed this a bit longer but had to type it again PC error.
I got that figure wrong.
Here is what I got so far with carbon fiber.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carbon-Fiber-Panel-2mm-x-8-x-12-Board-Sheet-/160792175222?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3D UA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D160786202163%26ps%3D63%26clk id%3D8093159766448641565

Rear vibration mount
http://www.vibrationmounts.com/RFQ/VM02004.htm

Front shock absorber
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aluminum-100mm-shocks-absorber-set-for-1-10-RC-Car-Auto-/280736809453?pt=Radio_Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item415d37c1ed

I already searched them sites! It llooks like servo city has the gears I'm looking for.
I just have to decide on what servo to go for. What are you running Hornet?

freestyledork
05-01-2012, 11:45 PM
Thanks for the insight superhornet. I am looking to get into this as a professional gig. I currently have a media studio and have been working on getting a AP ship for 2 years now. Most of the time was spent learning to fly. I might be looking to you for guidance once the time comes. I do however realize the cost of this and have set a budget of $3,000 for a set up to get started.

Valkman
05-02-2012, 05:02 PM
What programs do you use in the media studio freestyledork??

freestyledork
05-02-2012, 11:17 PM
Mostly Adobe software. Premiere, After Effects, Photoshop, and for 3d animation Cinema 4d.
I'm really interested in getting the new CS6 release coming out this month.