6S+ charger

[th3tick]

So, I just bought a TRex 600E (YAY!). I haven't bought batteries or charger yet (one thing at a time), and am shopping for a charger.

What's the best strategy to approach this? Should I get a 6S charger, or should I jump to 10S now instead of upgrading later?

And, if so, which charger?

The only thing I know about the chargers is that I want one that tells me the mAh it puts back in. Knowing that for my 3S packs has been invaluable.

Oh, if only FMA had one as nice as the Cellpro 4S that did 6-10...

TIA,
John

[xrbcoronalogoflyer]

hi john...the tp1010c is a nice charger...but i have this one...
http://aircraft-world.com/shopexd.asp?id=4901
when you're charging 6s and above, you need to consider an adequate power supply (my charger specs call for a 10-25a power supply...i use an astro120 13.8v/12.5a...car battery works too, but be careful not to get stranded... :shock:
-ken

[Pinecone]

FMA is in teh process of doing a CellPro 6S type charger. Not sure when we will see it. But I will buy one or two when they come out.

[kgfly]

Here is a summary I put together recently that you might find useful.

You might also want to explore flying 10s A123 packs in your T600 which is similar to 8s lipo. Cheaper, safer and much longer lived than lipos but some extra effort too.


Choosing batteries and chargers
===============================
Which chemistry ?

LiPo provides the highest energy density and best performance for size but is relatively expensive and somewhat fragile. Packs are easily damaged mechanically and there is a risk of fire if overloaded, overcharged or punctured. They also don't tolerate deep discharge. Hence they require a top quality charger, care in handling and a degree of knowledge to be safe.

Emoli (LiIon) from the V28 packs are 100g/cell at 3000mAh. They are heavy buggers but very robust and don't have the same fire risks as LiPo. They have a precipitous voltage drop at the end of the curve which can catch folks out without enough oomph to recover and land.

A123/M1 (LiFe) from the 36V DeWalt packs ar 70g/cell at 2300mAh. These are heavier than equivalent capacity LiPo but very robust and essentially zero fire risk. They are also lower voltage (3.3V nominal, 3.6V fully charged vs 3.7/4.2 for LiPo) but they tolerate 100% discharge and can be charged at up to 10A (4.3C) which makes up for the lower capacity by getting you back in the air much faster. Testing has shown that for power-system design purposes you should treat them as 16C/33C if you want to get ~500cycles. Unlike the emoli, which strangle around 40A, the A123 cells are capable of very high output, certainly 70A and up to 120A briefly. Basically heat is the enemy of cell life so running them at these very high discharge rates will shorten their life, but it's nice to know they can do it if needed. Under load the cell voltage drops quite a bit, running about 3.1V at 10A and 2.6V at 40A.

The lower cell voltage, particularly under load means you need more series cells than a lipo for the same rough pack voltage. The bigger voltage drop under load (at least compared to premium lipos) means maintaining uniform headspeed can be a bit harder and an ESC with a top class governer (eg Jazz or CC) can be useful.

The market rate for a DeWalt 36V tool pack with 10 A123 cells is about USD$100 plus shipping on eBay. Probably works out to around $12/cell. That makes them very cheap when compared to lipos on a total energy basis. Often you can afford two or three A123 packs for the price of the lipo you would otherwise use. This, combined with the possibility of 4C charging makes up for the shorter flight times for the same weight.

The A123/M1 datasheet is here: http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/ANR26650M1specs.pdf

My opinons

Up to 8s: eStation BC8 (150W/7A) - Convenient integrated multichemistry balance charger
10s/12s: eStation 902 (200W/10A), Hyperion 1210i (180W/10A), TP1010 (220W/10A) - All these require 1 or 2 external balancers plus various interconnect cables.


Which charger ?
A high quality charger is vital to safety as well as ensuring the best performance and maximum lifetime from your batteries so this is not an area to pinch pennies. There are some excellent choices around. A lot depends on your budget but more on the combination of your current needs and your expectations for the future. If larger models are in your future you might want a higher power charger now than would otherwise be needed if small park flyers are all you will ever fly.

Notes
1) Most chargers require an external DC power supply so budget ~$50 for a 150W one to run one or two low-power chargers or ~$100 for a 250W one to run high-power chargers at full load. You can also convert a PC power supply which can be a cheap way to go if you have the skills to do it safely.

eStation BC8 ($310)
- Requires DC power
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 12S LiPo/LiFe
- Needs external balancer (1 for up to 6S, 2 for 7S-12S)
- Normal, Fast and Storage LiPo cycles
- 180W/10A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 2x/3S/4S <= 10000mAh, 5s <- 9500mAh, 6S <= 7900mAh, 8S <= 6000mAh, 10S <= 4800mAh, 12S <= 4000mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S/4S/5S <= 4.3C, 6S <= 4.0C, 8S <= 3.0C
- Optional temperature probe and PC inteface cable.

Excellent and very convenient integrated balance charger. Very capable for typical T600 6s lipo packs

Hyperion 1210i-A + 2xLBA10 6S balancer (~$280)
- Requires DC power
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 12S LiPo/LiFe
- Needs external balancer (1 for up to 6S, 2 for 7S-12S)
- Normal, Fast and Storage LiPo cycles
- 180W/10A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 2x/3S/4S <= 10000mAh, 5s <- 9500mAh, 6S <= 7900mAh, 8S <= 6000mAh, 10S <= 4800mAh, 12S <= 4000mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S/4S/5S <= 4.3C, 6S <= 4.0C, 8S <= 3.0C
- Be sure to get the data cable and network cable for the balancers
- Optional temperature probe and PC inteface cable.

A high-power charger that goes right up to 12S for a bargain price. Excellent features (similar to the eStation range) including LiFe support (must be the latest firmware, the -A model) although strangely no LiIon support, which is probably not an issue unless you want the option to use emoli packs. While not as convenient as the BC8 (since you need up to two external balancers), this is very good value for money.

eStation 902 + 2x PB6 6S balancers ($330 + 2x$65 = $460)
- Requires DC power
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiIon/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 12S LiXx
- Needs external balancer (1 for up to 6S, 2 for 7S-12S)
- Normal, Fast and Storage LiPo cycles
- 200W/9.9A output
- 1C LiPo charge: 3S/4S/5S <= 9900mAh, 6S <= 9200mAh, 8S <= 6900mAh, 10S <= 5500mAh, 12S <= 4600mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 4.3C, 8S <= 3.3C, 10S <= 2.6C, 12S <= 2.2C

A high-power charger that goes right up to 12S. Excellent features (mostly the same as BC8). While not as convenient as the BC8 (since you need up to two external balancers), this is a very good charger.

ThunderPower 1010 + 210V balancer (~$320)
- Requires DC power
- Multi-chemistry charger: NiCd/NiMH/Pb/LiPo/LiFe
- 2S to 10S LiPo/LiFe
- Needs external balancer (1 for up to 10S)
- Normal, Fast and Storage LiPo cycles
- 220W/10A output
- 1C lipo charge: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 10000mAh, 8S <= 7600mAh, 10S <= 6000mAh
- A123 charge rate: 3S/4S/5S/6S <= 4.3C, 8S <= 3.6C, 10S <= 2.9C
- Be sure to get the data cable for the balancer
- Field upgradable firmware with optional PC cable

A high-power charger that goes up to 10S. Initially LiXx only the latest firmware added Pb/NiCd/NiMh to to the LiIon/LiPo/LiFe it had before. Unique in this group in allowing end-user firmware upgrades with the purchase of the optional interface cable. This charger is hugely popular in the US with those flying 50-size and bigger helis. It is the highest power of the group but is limited to 10s.



I hope that is some help.

[th3tick]

Now if only there was someone in the area making 8S A123 packs that I could watch make one or two, I'd switch to that in a heartbeat. $100 vs. $300 plus the added safety is pretty cool.

I'm surprised that there aren't folks making up packs with this stuff and selling them. I found a123racing, but they only make 2S and 3S packs.

I don't suppose anyone has done a video on "how to make a pack"...

Thanks a lot for all the info. Off to ponder...
John

[kgfly]

8s A123 is not a great choice for a T600, this thread explains why: http://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=42357&highlight=t600+a123

10s is the sweet spot. Good performance, acceptable flight time and you can take the cells straight out of the DeWalt pack as is to make a brick pack that mounts on the T600 just like a regular lipo.

The good news is that there are some excellent tutorials on how to make A123 packs:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599316
http://www.slkelectronics.com/DeWalt/hints.htm
http://www.terrorhurtz.com/a123/build.aspx

[kgfly]

Also another excellent tutorial available from tppacks.com who also sell a bundled kit of wires an heatshrink to make it easy: http://www.tppacks.com/products.asp?cat=17 (scroll down to the a123 M1 Battery Pack Contruction Kit)

How to guide: http://www.tppacks.com/documents/10-Cell%20a123%20M1%20Battery%20Construction%20Kit%20 Instructions.pdf

[Probedude]

FMA is in teh process of doing a CellPro 6S type charger. Not sure when we will see it. But I will buy one or two when they come out.

It's going on 7 months. Hopefully it comes out soon.

[Pinecone]

Well, they never said WHEN it would be out. :)

But they should try to get them out, so we can buy them. :)

[th3tick]

After having used the Cellpro 4S for a couple months now, and now trying the TP-1010C, oh my the difference. I can't wait for FMA to get a 6S+ one out!

John

[ChasHeliCop]

Hey John, I just bought the Hyperion 1210 x2 lba10 balancer setup, in KGFLY's reveiw. I have only had it a week, so still getting used to it, but I am very pleased. Goes upto 12s, and with this setup, you can charge two 3s packs at once, big selling point for me. It took me several weeks of looking at chargers before I decided on one. Good luck, there's a lot of choices. I liked the eStations too. Thaniks again KG