Esc Cutting out

[Tarkers]

Hi All,

My esc (CC Pheonix 60) is cutting out after a few seconds of getting up to speed. It cuts to nothing or just ticking over, then will restart once I throttle back completely then start again.

Any ideas what it could be? :dontknow

It's my first flight back after another crash where I came down pretty hard on the side of the esc (its strapped to the frame beside the motor) but it doesn't appear to be damaged in any way and isn't getting particularly hot.

The onlythings I've changed since the crash are new blades and boom and I upgraded the rudder servo to a Futaba 9254 digi, other than that, nothings changed.

TIA
Tarkers

[jnngill]

It sounds like a short in the ESC. Is it hot to the touch after 60 seconds? Does the motor turn the head easily or can you feel any binding if you turn the motor by hand?

[Coolice]

Hey,

Here are some things I'd suggest checking :

1. Connections from battery to ESC, especially ESC ones if using Deans connectors.

2. Motor mounting screws. If they are too long they can touch the inner windings of the motor and short out (guess how I know ;-) this could then trip out the CC60.

3. The temperature of the motor & ESC will tell us a lot, especially after a shut down. If either is quite hot considering the short time they have been running then something it most probably shorting out.

4. Have you changed any of the settings in the ESC lately, eg. since the crash?
There is over current protection and battery voltage protection which could cause an issue.

5. How good is the pack and was this the LiPo used on the model when it came down? If so it could be naff and not able to supply the current which the ESC then recognises and shuts down the main motor.

6. What firmware are you running on the ESC or have you been able to upgrade it using the Castle Link software?

These are some thigns to try, let us know how you get on.
.

[Tarkers]

Hey Guys,

Ok a few things to check there, here's what I know so far and from my latest inspection:

As far as I can see there's no shorts visible.
The motor is definately not binding - although it wasn't before the crash either and although I came in fairly hard on one side, the mount is the aluminium upgrade one so is unlikely to have suffered and twisting.
Battery conections - fine
ESC connections - fine
motor connections - fine all clean, no scorching or black marks - all look like new.

The esc was warm, but not "ouch" hot, I had done a couple of basic hovers say 15-20secs, but with no load really, just to check everything was balanced and level, I then landed, moved to a less windy spot and tried again probably 30-40 secs later, the first cut out appeared. restarted thinking I'd "just imagined it" and it did it again and again - spool up, get about 1foot off the ground then it shuts down. Throttle down, throttle back up and it immediately spools up again.

The Lipo is the same pack , but is/was fully charged - appears to have sustained no damage in the crash.

I haven't changed any settings on the esc (not sure I'd know how to :? ) so this remains as before.

I haven't changed the firmware either - again I'm not sure I'd know how without a walkthrough.

I know we shouldn't blame our tools for our mistakes, but just thinking back the crash, the heli did not respond anything like as quickly as usual - this makes me wonder if it was a cut-out that had caused it...
Would this suggest a firmware or ESC fault?

Tarkers

[Coolice]

Hey,

Ok, got another idea but you will need to follow the Castle Creations instructions on how to program the ESC. I would suggest removing the main blades (possibly even the whole head) & tail blades, or slacken off the moutning screws and move the pinion away from the main gear while setting up. It is handy to have the motor connected to hear the beeps but you need to make it safe incase it starts.

Below are the settings I used on my CC60, see if you can get these into the controller and try again.

setting 1 cut off voltage ------------ 2- 4v cut off - Low I know but I'd rather tell the model when to land and not have the ESC tell me at the wrong time

SETTING 2 CURRENT LIMITING--------------------- 5- disabled - I disabled mine to avoid any problems and never fried a controller

SETTING 3 BRAKE TYPE------------------------------- 5- brake disabled

SETTING 4 THROTTLE TYPE ---------------------------------- 4- governor mode high - I use this as the motor has quite a high Kv rating an hence is running quite fast

SETTING 5 ELECTRONIC TIMING ADVANCE------------ 1- high advance - Adds just a little more power to motor without any problems. Perhaps try this setting as you get used to the model more and after fitting the optional motor heatsink if you dont already have it.

SETTING 6 LOW VOLTAGE CUTOFF TYPE--------------------- 2- soft cutoff

SETTING 7 SOFT START--------------------- 1- very soft start - I use the soft start to avoid any hassle with stripping the main gears, but if your ok with fast then ok.

SETTING 8 PWM SWITCHING RATE--------------1- 13Khz - I leave this as standard and have as yet not played with it to say either way.

The LED light on the controller can tell us some information to, according to the Castle Creations web site there is specific sequences of light flashes/beeps to signal various problems. One such article can be seen here :

http://www.castlecreations.com/support/documents/Phoenix_User_Guide.pdf

Flick forward to page 3 of the PDF manual.

Another one is here, about a problem with going to full power :

http://www.castlecreations.com/support/faq/faq-phoenix.html#phx2

It would be good to update the firmware of the ESC but you will need to purchase the Castle Link USB lead to do this, it's about £20 and worth having.
If cant borrow one & you have flying buddies with CC controllers buy it between you all, that is what I did then the cost is shared & you can all keep up to date.

You could post the ESC to the UK distributer of Castle Creatiosn I think to have this done to, but that will leave you without a flying model until you get it back.

Have a go with the settings above first and see how you get on.
.

[Tarkers]

Coolice,
Thanks for that, perfect, I'll give that a go, though like you say I may need to get the usb hook up as it seems an awful lot easier that way.

One question, I replaced my main shaft from an earlier crash with a solid one in the hope it would be more resilient in a crash. This was my first one since replacing it - is it possible that it has bent slightly and the vibration may causse a cut out or is this not a consideration?

Tarkers

[Coolice]

Hey,

No problems your welcome. Lets hope you can sort this out yourself.
I would offer to program the ESC for you as I do have the link, but then that still requires ending me the ESC and you being without it until I can post it back.

Erm, I wouldn't say vibration would cause any cut outs in the ESC no. It wont do the heli any good admitedly, but the electrics shouldn't suffer from it as such except the risk of pure failure like in IC machines where servos fail due to vibes etc.

Definetly the ESC's are prone to silly issues if not set right, a classic is the throttle curves in the transmitter.
Speakign of which, I dont think I have asked already what throttle percentages are you running? Ideally you need to get the motor to 80% power as soon as possible, eg. using a very steep throttle curve in normal mode and then flatten out at anything above 80% to be efficient.
Also with the throttle above 80% the ESC will not get overly hot having to absorb the excess power from the battery as it tries to maintain to low a throttle setting, a major cause of ESC's going pop.
.

[Tarkers]

Coolice,
Thanks for the offer, what I'll do is have a crack at it myself, then if I get nowhere maybe I could drop it down to you - i notice you're only in Northants - I'm in Solihull. I was down at Silverstone at the weekend, its only 40mins away.

I had adjusted my throttle curve a fair amount from its original settings just prior tot the previous crash - now you mention it, I wonder if that could've been the cause. What would be a sensible 5 point throttle and pitch curve for a novice? Radio and Battery as per my sig. and I'm using the standard motor that came with the kit.

Unfortunately I'm at work at the mo (obviously busy :wink: ) and don't have my curve to hand. I'll check at lunch or this evening. I know that one of them is pretty much linear 0-25-50-75-100, but can't remember if thats pitch or throttle. I'll let you know.

[Coolice]

Hey,

Another option then as your not to far is to come to my field for a days flying and we'll setup the model together so I can run through with you how I would set things.

On my own electric models the throttle curve I have ramping up very steeply in normal mode, my Swift throttle curve :

Point on throttle curve / percentage of throttle

0 : 0 on ESC
16 : 47 % power on ESC
32 : 90% power on ESC
full stick : 90 % on ESC

As you can see the throttle curve climbs steeply within 1/3rd stick movement and then flattens out to a flat line all the way to 100% stick movement.
This is the best way for most electric ESC's as you need them to run above 80% all the time to be efficient, otherwise the excess power from say running at 50% throttle needs to be absorbed by the FET's which get hot and can then shut down.
Possibly what you are getting I'd say.

IdleUp 1 & 2 are straight lines at 92% from low stick to full stick, maintaining a constant head speed using govenor mode on the ESC.

Head speeds on electric models are altered using the motor pinions and not with the throttle values.

Let me know how you get on, but I think we're getting there now and on the road to having you flying the model without problems.
.

[Tarkers]

Hi Coolice,

I think you may have something with regard to the time for the esc to heat up and cut out.

Ok so on my T6EXHP I have a 5pt throttle curve denoted by the characters:
N--TH
My five points are 0% 35% 50% 65% 100%
Flatter across the middle and not getting to 80% except at the very top of the stick travel.

My pitch curve is linear, again a five point:
N--PI
0% 25% 50% 75% 100%

wrt my idle ups I think I need a bit of guidance on these as I'm not sure how to set them on this radio.

I'm going to be out of the country for this weekend coming, but maybe I could PM you when I'm back and I could take you up on the meeting at your field next time you're free and the weather's kind. I'd really appreciate that.

Cheers
Tarkers

[Coolice]

Hey Tarkers,

Yeah, the more I think about it now I am inclined to think it's the throttle curve which is allowing the ESC to generate some extra heat which inturn then shuts it down.

When you get back PM me and we'll arrange a day to get you over, at the same time we'll reprogram the ESC with the latest firwmare then go set it up and run through a few things.

Have a good holiday/break.
Chat when you get back.
.