FMA BalancePro HD?

[swannking]

Can a regular lipo battery be charged with this at 10A? Their review stated that it can charge the balancePro pack at 10A but their packs are no where to be found.

[DebianDog]

Maybe a newer 5000 Mah Lipoly could be charged at 10 amps. Where is this claim?

[markjj]

Great charger, I perfer it over my tp charger when linked to the pc. With a 13.8v supply it'll actually charge at 11 amps although I stick to 1c. Proper balance charging as well, not the drop down balance as is the tp, just needs a screen really. You would need an adapter to charge other packs and then fire away with 10amps, although wheather you'd want to is another question.

[DebianDog]

Flightpower EVO 30 Premium
Fast charge rates up to 3.0C approved in conjunction with balancing

Remember "approved" is not "recommended" ;)

[swannking]

This idea came to me. So, if I have the balancePro and 4 3S battery packs, I can hook 2 packs together in series and charge them like a 6S pack. With a charging rate of 2C (just like the Cellpro 4S), I can re-charge a 80% discharged packs (2 3S in series) in 24mins!!. And with the 2 packs, I can fly for 12-15mins between charging depending on whether it is 2100mah or 2500mah pack. Very little down time. What do you think??

[Pinecone]

It will take longer than 24 minutes. Lipos don't charge at Constant Current for the entire chahrge. And teh Constant Voltage portion of the charge takes about the same amount of time no matter what C rate you cahrge at during teh Constant Current portion.

[swannking]

It will take longer than 24 minutes. Lipos don't charge at Constant Current for the entire chahrge. And teh Constant Voltage portion of the charge takes about the same amount of time no matter what C rate you cahrge at during teh Constant Current portion.

Point well taken. But still not bad right?

[Pinecone]

There have been several threads about series charging multiple packs. With a TP 1010C and 210V balancer and a custom cable you can do 3 3S packs at once.

[swannking]

There have been several threads about series charging multiple packs. With a TP 1010C and 210V balancer and a custom cable you can do 3 3S packs at once.

But the 1010C is more expensive.

[RC Accessory]

But the 1010C is more expensive.

The 1010 is much more capable charger. The FMA unit is about high power.

[trextuning]

Not correct, the FMA charger does 'balance charging', the TP unit does balance discharging. Also the FMA can balance at a full 10A charge rate, the TP 1010 cannot.

The FMA charger is the more advanced and capable (by far) when it comes to balance charging lipos as it can balance at full charge rate (10A). Chargers with separate balancers (like the 1010) simply cannot do this as the balancers have very small shunts that can only dissipate low levels of charge current, so balancing only really works at lower amp charge rates or towards the end of a high amp charge.

Don't be fooled by the look of the FMA charger with it's one knob for setting charge rate, behind the front panel it's an extremely sophisticated charger. Link it to a PC and it will graph each individual cells voltage showing you exactly how healthy each cell in your pack is from start of charge right through to end.

The 1010 has a few LEDs that blink and looks better. Unfortunately it's a clear case here of packaging looking more attractive on the 1010 where as the Balance Pro is the technically superior.

[DebianDog]

The 1010 does the same and actually is a MORE capable charger.

1-10 cell li-poly packs
Charges Packs up to 10,000mah

Balancing only really should come in to play at the end of the charge anyway if the lipo is good.

The FMA is only designed for 6S

The FMA also needs modules (Charge and Protection), adapters, and pigtails to do all the things the 1010 does and if you want to see any details you need to hook it up to a Windows PC. That alone is a HUGE negative in my opinion.

[swannking]

If I understand it correctly, the 1010 needs a separate balancer. It only charges at 10A up to 5 cells not 10 cells. It is also more expensive.

[DebianDog]

Yes and so what? You can also balance without the charger.

NO 10 CELLS with the 210V (see attached)

Only 10A? or the same as the FMA.

It is more expensive but you do not need a PC to see the status of the cells. You can charge, discharge, charge to 95%, charge to 100%, fast charge, or put in lipo storage mode. It is more expensive because it does more.

You guys are dragging a computer to the field with you so you can see your lipo status? :lol:

I am sure it is a great charger if you only ever want to charge 6S (or less) and just need a balanced charger. I do not think much else touches it at that price point.

[trextuning]

You missed the point entirely.

The point is the internal balancing algorithms on the FMA do a far superior job to the 1010 which just discharges cells as they become overcharged (which is what all separate balncing units do) . The FMA varies the charge to each individual cell, in the first four minutes the pack is totally balanced and then brought up to full charge in balance with NO risk over overcharging.

Your own post admits that the TP is inferior in that your pack has to be balanced in the first place for the TP do work as it only balances properly at end of charge.
So what if your pack isn't balanced very well, or you accidentally discharged it a little too far and the cell voltages have diverged (which happens with all cells). The TP will not do a good job of getting it back in balance until right towards the end of charge, at which point you run the risk of overcharging it as the balancer shunts are so small and can't divert the charge current appropriately.

I have a 1010 and the separate balancer, ok it does up to 10 cells, big deal, only useful if you need up to 10 cells and as most of us are flying t-rex 600s or 450s on 3S or 6S why do I need 10? The 8S - 10S market is a tiny proportion compared to the 2S-6S market.
Charges up to 10000 mah, oh wow, the FMA goes to 100ah.
Charge current up to 10A.....only for 5 cells, the FMA will do 10A for 6 cells. Additionally with the TP balancing only occuring at end of charge I'd highly recommend not going above 4-5A as a 10A charge with insufficent current balancing will result in damaged and overcharged cells in your pack.

So at the field you want to charge to 95%, no problem, the green LED flashes on the FMA at this point. Lipo storage mode......um, why the hell are you doing that at the field?

Tell you what, explain to me how the 1010 allows you to monitor the health of your packs over time by allowing you to see in graph form the exact cell voltages on every charge. I have a TP 5000, I know cells 4 and 5 have suffered some cell damage from the charge graphs, I know they have lost some capacity and I know that I must therefore reduce my flight time as two cells are going lower than the others during discharge. Um, how does the 1010 show me this, how will it allow me to elongate the lifetime of my packs and get better value for money from my expensive purchase? Perhaps I should watch the blinking LEDs and hazzard a guess as to the state of my pack?

I'm not saying the 1010 doesn't have functionality, it does, it just is NOT a technical equal to a full balancing charger like the FMA. It does not give you the ability to manage your packs, understand their cells individual health and maximise your lifetime from that pack, that is the advantage of the FMA.

[DebianDog]

No, what I said was balancing does not become important. Or in other words it is not very critical if the cells are a tad out of balance being it is not fully charged yet. Your goal is to not over charge any cell and charge each cell to its full capacity. It monitors it the whole time the pack is charging (via the data cable to the charge from the balancer) AND will shut it off if it goes out more than .25V variance in cells, anytime during the charge. It will not charge at full amperage till the pack is deemed "ready" and in balance. (It basically trickle charges it at the beginning of the charge and then checks the voltage on the cells, via the data cable on the balancer, after it sees that the lipo is taking the charge it ramps up the amps till you are charging at the full selected amperage). The charge will not even START if you have an "bad" imbalance.

I can hook it up AT THE FIELD after a flight check the voltage of each cell down to a 1/100 of a volt. It will tell me the high and low cell or I an view them all. If I am not going to be flying again I put the charger in storage mode and charge them back up to the optimal 50%. Like you are supposed to do. How do you do that with your charger after you drag it back to the house and hook it up to the computer? Watch it? :YeaBaby:

10000 mah is 10 amps :roll: (milli means 1/1000)

You are never going to want a 8S or 10S machine? LOL :rolling sure :thumbup:

I will NOT EVER RUN M$ WINDOWS for my main computer THAT is enough for me to NEVER buy this charger :FThat F___ Windows.

[WillJames]

You missed the point entirely.



Tell you what, explain to me how the 1010 allows you to monitor the health of your packs over time by allowing you to see in graph form the exact cell voltages on every charge. I have a TP 5000, I know cells 4 and 5 have suffered some cell damage from the charge graphs, I know they have lost some capacity and I know that I must therefore reduce my flight time as two cells are going lower than the others during discharge. Um, how does the 1010 show me this, how will it allow me to elongate the lifetime of my packs and get better value for money from my expensive purchase? Perhaps I should watch the blinking LEDs and hazzard a guess as to the state of my pack?

I'm not saying the 1010 doesn't have functionality, it does, it just is NOT a technical equal to a full balancing charger like the FMA. It does not give you the ability to manage your packs, understand their cells individual health and maximise your lifetime from that pack, that is the advantage of the FMA.

You have answered your own terse question. The 1010/210V does not wait until the end of the cycle to balance. The way you tell the state of your pack is look at the individual voltages of the cells after the flight and at the beginning of the charge. It is simple. The longer into a 1C charge that balancing lights are still flashing is also a very good indication of the condition of the individual cells, but the voltages at the start of the charge are enough to tell you the clear picture of the condition of your packs without any computers involved.

Why so hostile?

It is obvious you like the FMA charger, a lot of people do, but on the other hand, a lot of people seem to have problems with it as well. It is definitely priced right. I personally am not interested in any charger I have to hoop to my PC as I own multiple Mac's. Holding down a button for three seconds then scrolling thorough some voltages is simple enough for me. Also, I do fly a Logo 14 so I need 10s capable charger.

[trextuning]

I responded in kind to an already hostile response, you get what you sow.

You also misunderstand, the TP balancer is INCAPABLE of balancing during full charge rate it does not have the necessary shunt capability. The fact that it won't start charging below 3.3V per cell is indication of such (it's in the instructions). The fact that is shuts down the charge rate when the cells are 0.25mv out is indication of such. The charger is working within it's limitations, limitations the FMA doesn't have.

All this turning down the amps when the cells are a bit out just elongates the charge time, yeah ok it's safe but it only does this because it HAS to work within it's own limited specification. The Balancepro will charge a pack that is well out of balance, fast & efficiently without rejecting the cells or resorting to tiny little charge currents.

The LEDs on the balance unit are not an indication of cell health, they are a point in time (at connection) indication of cell voltages. The FMA graphs the charge and shows you the mah into each cell, shows voltage across each cell across the whole charge. This is what indicates cell health. If I discharge a pack low of course it will be out of balance, the lower you go the further out of balance it will be, this is NOT an indication of pack health. What is an indication of pack health is the charge per cell (mah) and how the voltage tracks back into line during the entire charge cycle. This is what the FMA gives you and the Thunder Power does not.

At the field you do not need this data, at the field you need a fast efficent charge and a balanced pack, the FMA will do his faster and better than the TP for reasons I've explained. Back home you hook it to the PC and check your packs health during your last charge of the day.

Clearly you like the TP, that's great but please don't try to sell it as technically superior as it clearly isn't, balance chargers are only just coming out, FMA were first, Schulze now have several in their line up and I'm sure TP will move to this technology as well. Balance 'dischargers' are old technology.

Oh and 100ah is 100 000 mah, sorry if you misread that.

[trextuning]

Let me also explain lipo storage.

Lipos can be full charged and stored for short periods (say a couple of weeks) with pretty much unnoticeable effect on lifetime .

The reason for doing half charging is that temperature has a large effect on a lipos relative charge state. When a lipo is fully charged at 20 centigrade it will go into an overcharged state if you then lower the temperature to 10 centigrade. Storing lipos in an area they might suffer large temperature differential is a bad idea due to this condition. This is why lipo storage mode is set to 50%, it's so that the pack won't go into an over charged state whilst in storage if the temperature drops significantly.

If you fly every day or once a week and keep your packs at a reasonably constant temperature (like in the garage or house) lipo storage or half charging will have no positive effect on your pack lifetime.

[kgfly]

The appeal of the FMA BalancePro will increase considerably when they eventually release an upgraded version with an integrated display. That will address people's concerns about needing a PC to see what's going on (which is a nice option but a pain if it is the *only* way).

The BalancePro is >240W output and can charge 6s LiPo at up to 10A. The TP1010 is 220W output and can only charge up to 5s LiPo at 10A, dropping to 5A max for 10s.

While it is true that the market above 6s is relatively small, I think it is growing. There are more and more helis that can be run on various combinations. With the growth in the 500-class (eg Lepton, HDX500 etc) and 30-size (Hurricane550, Logo500, Swift etc) and 50-size (T600, Logo600, Phazor600 etc) configurations above 6s will only become more common. If you take A123 technology into account, cell counts up to 15s are not unusual and certainly 7s-12s will be common. As other LiFe technology packs appear higher cell count solutions will become more common IMO.

For now I think the BalancePro is great value for money for such a high-power 6s LiPo/LiFe charger that seems to perform well. For those that prefer an onboard display, need multi-chemistry support or up to 10s, the TP1010 (or eStation 902 or Hyperion 1210i for up to 12s) is a better choice.

[trextuning]

The FMA supports A123 natively.

For 8S-12S applications it is far better to put two smaller packs in series as high cell counts increase the chances of a single cell failure, particularly during charge where balancing becomes so critical due to the higher charge voltages.

If I need to run 8S, 10S or 12S I usually series two packs 2*4S, 5S or 6S. Additionally if I have a single cell failure I only throw away a cheap pack (relatively speaking) rather than a very expensive one. Why throw away 10 cells because one cell went bad when you can get away with only throwing away 5. Same in a crash, usually you get away with only damaging one pack of the two, where as any damage on a big pack is a big expense.

But in general I agree, the Balancepro would benefit greatly from the same display that it's smaller Cellpro 4S cousin has and eliminate some of the need for the PC connectivity. Although I would still want the charge graphing as it's the only reliable method I've seen of judging pack health outside of onboard data logging.

[kgfly]

For 8S-12S applications it is far better to put two smaller packs in series as high cell counts increase the chances of a single cell failure, particularly during charge where balancing becomes so critical due to the higher charge voltages.
Indeed, but for a 10s brick, like on a T600 or e550, it is damn convenient to just take the cells out of a DeWalt pack, tap, wrap and fly :)

[trextuning]

no disagreement here, in that instance a 10S brick of very cheap cells makes sense and you'd have to use a 10S capable charger.

[Finless]

Well my .0002 cents since I have owned both chargers. I even did a video about the FMA charger way back.
http://video.helifreak.com/?subpath=finless/other&filename=balancepro6.wmv

For the price it is a good charger but it does have it's limitations.
I do agree that I like the idea of charge balancing instead of discharge balancing. It makes more sense which is why I bought the charger (and for it's price).
If a charger came out that did all the things the current 1010 does but balance charges, I would buy it!

Realize the latest code update on the 1010 allows it to do much more than just Lipo charging and even has a battery recovery mode should you over discharge a pack.

As for the comments about the 210 balancer not being able to keep up. NOT TRUE. I charge up to 10S 3700 packs and it has never had a problem keeping up. I have some old 10S packs that need a lot of balancing too.

As for charging more than 1C. I still dont do that and probably never will. I tried to see what 100% charging at 2C did for charge time and it only shaved off 15 minutes from the hour charge time of 1C. The reason is the last 10% of charge takes a long time for any charger because for safety they reduce current. This phase of charging takes the longer part of the 1 hour time AND DOESN'T change regardless if 1C or 2C charging. 15 minutes time saving is not worth the possibility of life loss to my expensive packs. As others said here, advertising a rating of 2C capable charging does not mean it's the best for your packs in my opinion. LIFE is what I want of a $480 pack!

In the end I still own my Balance Pro 6 and use it as a back up charger and I ONLY use it at home when I am near the PC so I can use the display, watch the charge status, etc. The 1010/210 is my primary charger for both home and in the field. Disregarding the difference between charge balancing and discharge balancing the 1010 is a superior charger. Why?
It does many other batts types (Lipo, lead acid, nicads, A123, Li-on)
It will discharge your lipos to the proper storage voltage (important if your not going to be using your packs for a while)
It gives you real time status on the display with a lot of good information like input voltage, charge rate and current, cell balance condition, etc.

So here is my take on the pros and cons

Balance pro 6 is a charge balancer! And yes it CAN charge at a higher amp for 6S packs than the 1010 can. BUT WARNING WILL ROBINSON. I wanted to test 2C charging on my FP packs to see what the charge time was with this unit.
I burned up 2 of them and had to send them back for repair when I charged at 2C my 6S 4900 packs (thats 10 amps 4.9 x 2 = 9.8 amps). I believe the issue is input voltage. When I hooked it to a GOOD car battery, during the charge it shut down and complained of low voltage (The blinking LEDs gave that status) and the thing never worked again after that. This happened twice. I think there is a software bug here myself and ever since getting the second one back I stopped trying to charge at 2C. If you use a good input power source that can handle the current draw then it may be OK.
Remember a 6S pack is 25 volts and thus it has to step up the voltage from the 12V input source. This means when charging at 5 amps your really pulling 10 amps from the input source. 10 amp charge now your pulling 20 amps from the input source!!! So be careful.
I will say something interesting about this. My manual DOES NOT have all the warnings (it will void your warranty) on it about input power needing 25 amp minimum capability! This got added later to the updated manual. I bet because many fried theirs like I did and they had to add this warning.... So again be careful. A car battery may not be able to handle it especially if you try to charge too many times on it and draw it too low!

Now one thing I did like about the PC software is it graphs your charges and cells and you can save that info and compare it to later charges to see how your batts are doing over time. Pretty neat feature for sure but whats funny is... I have never used it! My packs are doing so well with some of them having 200+ flights that it just wasn't used by me.

What I disliked about the Balance Pro 6 is the cable stuff, the crude dial, and no display when trying to use the charger in the field, and it wont charge packs larger than 6S!
When I bought mine they did not have the TP 6s cable. I had to buy the SV-TP/PQ and mod the dang thing to handle 6S. Also that adapter has a nice surprise WARNING on it that says do no charge over 5 amps!
For me I had to make my own cables and for some this will be a pain. I see they now have cables for 6S TP etc. So this may be a none issue for some now.

My bottom line is I dont like this as a in the field charger period. All things considered if I had no charger today I would buy the 1010/210 instead of the Balance Pro 6. The argument of charge balancing over discharge balancing is not enough of a WIN to make it a decision point over the 1010/210.

So there is my .0002 cents. Take it as you will :)

Bob

[trextuning]

The BalancePro low voltage problem has been identified and fixed, the charger will no longer fail in this way due to a low voltage input condition.

Sorry but the TP balancer not keeping up is TRUE, if you take it apart you will see that the shunts are too small to handle a full charge rate. What actually happens is it trys to keep up and will catch up later when the amps reduce. It doesn't have the necessary power dissipation to keep up during full charge rate in an 'imbalance condition'. If your packs you have been using are nice and healthy then it would have little to do and would in fact keep up, if they are getting a bit old and tired it won't keep up, sorry but the laws of physics cannot be circumvented in this regard.

The Balancepro is a dedicated lipo charger and it does this one thing extremely well rather than many things in a kind of ok way. The TP handling different pack types does not mean it is a better charger, it just means it costs more. But it depends what you want, I want a really good lipo charger that will manage my packs perfectly.