15s Ion-x on the way!

[shamen222]

Hey all sorry if this is off topic but you guys seem to know what you are talking about so I hope I don't upset anyone to much.

also I Posted this in the MA Pilots group as well.

thanks in advance...
Alright Looking for some help here... and this is going to be long winded... so here goes..

everyone saw my post earlier.. since that the Razor has fallen..I do not think they are "spikes" but rather some sort of loss of power for a moment and then back up again.. making it seem at first as a spike in the air because the heli drops a little and I automatically add more collective and throttle causing a noticeable jump in the air.

so after I put it all back together again and checked all of the wiring and connections I did a test with out the blades on because the last set got trashed.

Outside air temp: 80deg
humidity : 58%
Reciever pack @7.9v
fresh batts: EVO 20 3700 mAh flight power charged and bal. at 4.204 - 10s- (unknown amount of cycles on these packs)
gyro: gy611 --- 6.1v gain @ 36 Fmod 3d in AVC with 5v to the Servo
castle creations Phoenix HV85
Hacker A50-16S

The Test:
5 min on the ground at 80% throttle and no main blades. just flybar paddles and tail rotor blades.

Head speed unloaded: 1960

Preflight inspection: all parts and servo's at ambient temp 80 deg.
Reset throttle endpoints (high and Low) unhooking bat. after each setting.
Rebound JR921 to x9303 prior to flight test.

5 min 13 sec test;
after test...
Motor temp: 176 deg
esc temp: 112 deg
servo's : 86 deg
Bats : 91 deg cells where @ 3.94v - 3.917 putting 989mAh back in

Issues:
After 3 min into test the rotor speed died or dropped for a 1/2 sec 3 times possibly dropping head speed 200-600 rpm...

alright guys Ideals??? any one?

thanks in everyone..

[TomC]

Shamen,

My guess is that you may have a bad cell or two in your 10s pack. I've had this happen to me before with similar results. Maybe try a new flight pack and see how you make out.

Good luck and Cheers,
Tom C

[r2160]

More than likely it is your hacker motor doing this. We had the same problems with the hacker series of motors in the razors when using the CC85. The motors ran hot enough to kill them (usually within about 4 flights) - we have drawn around 80 amp peaks out of the hacker.

As soon as we ran the Tango 55-10-32 speedie, the hacker doesn't develop as much power but doesn't run as hot and we have over a hundred flights on this setup.

The CC85 seems to get more output out of the motor, but seems to kill the hackers. Whether this is because it drives them too hard I don't know, I only know what we have seen.

The actro 32-3 and tango 45-08, however, runs very well with the CC85 and tghey have great output.

cheers
Glenn

[bathmagic]

are you in gov mode or useing throttle curves ?

[TomC]

I think he is using gov mode (says 80%). Do you think he should try running with throttle curves Dale? I seem to remember my old CC HV85 ran better with throttle curves than gov mode. But, my CC HV110 was the other way around, better in gov mode. Go figure?

Cheers,
Tom C

[bathmagic]

Tom i have ended up useing curves not Gov mode on the CC 85 and 110
i seem to only get a flat out throttle/head speed when i switch over from curves to gov mode, i cant work it out, but on curves it works a treat !

But at a guess tom your right about the dead cell

Tom, hows the Ion going ? im interested in doing a belt conversion on the E-stratus as i just cant get the gearing right on the Std gearing avalible with the nitro system.

Something like the conversion that fredrick has done, with the exceptions i will run the motor at the back not the front, do you see any issues with this ?

Dale

[TomC]

Dale,

Both my Ion-x's are going great. I have to admit my old 10s single-staged (10:1, actro 32-3) Ion-x is a bit boring to fly compared to my flybarless 15s double staged (20.6:1, Neu 1521/2y/f/h) one.

I'm planning on taking the single-staged to 15s with an Actro 32-4 max that I recently bought when I thought my Neu motor would never get back from the Neu repair shop. I'm still waiting for MA to release their new 111t main gear (for the Bandit 50), hopefully within the next month.

Personally, I prefer to stay away from belts, if possible. However, I may end up having to go that way eventually, don't know for sure. Mr Mel's E-stratus belt conversion, a couple of months ago, looked pretty good. You may want to check with him how it's all worked out. Mounting the motor at the rear, might not be too good for your CG. That's the only issue I can think of right now.

If I were you, I'd wait and get the 111t main gear from MA and try this first with a 10t pinion (11.1:1 ratio). I think that Chuck has come to the conclusion that ~11.2:1 with a 12s Actro 32-3 is about perfect (on his E-synegy). So 11.1 should be a lot better ratio than your current 10:1 imop.

Cheers,
TomC

[shamen222]

All right every one....Updates to my razor problems....
It was a combination of things (it seems it always is) The bat pack was old so it is not given like it used to ...((((Thank you Tom)))). the cutoff voltage was set on auto along with the current limiting be set on normal, so I was getting a sort of LVCO low voltage cutoff... since resetting the HV85 and new packs I have gone on to discover other problems...at least I'm in the air now...(sticky flybar and the tail needs work)... thanks Tom, Dale, Glenn, PG you guys helped a lot and def. put me in the right direction.

**I'm using fixed endpoints and throttle curves I may want to try gov mode later when I get a little bit better at the whole "flying thing" for right now its hover tail in and left to right working up to fig 8's
I cant see that motor lasting long though...5 min with an 1860 rpm headspeed just hovering and moving it about alittle. (Okay chasing a hover...) 180 deg F. don't nitro's only get to 150???



Shawn

[TomC]

Shawn,

Glad things sound like they are going better Mate. ALL my Hacker motors ran hot, even with 12v PC fans blowing on them. You are probably ok at 180 deg F but just keep an eye on your headspeed. If it starts to increase, then the motor is probably starting to de-magnetize and may soon fail. At least this is what happened to a couple of mine in the past. You might want to try using low motor timing setting on your HV85 esc. It 'might' help the motor run a few degrees cooler.

Please be careful lowering your esc LVC's and using this with your old battery packs. I have done this (dropped it to 2.8v/cell soft cuttoff) in the past and it has resulted in one cell puffing. This happened with a FlightPower Evolite (version 1, 18C) 5s 4250 packs (poor performing packs imop).

Dale,

I got a call yesterday from Glenn (our friendly, helpful local MA distributor) and he told me that the 111t maingears can be purchased for ~$120 each right now. Pretty expensive because they need to do them as a single, special run right now. They will be a lot cheaper once the Bandit 50 rolls out the MA door, hopefully in the next month or so. I'm very tempted to get one cut now so I can try my 15s single-staged Actro 32-4 Max out (must resist! wife will kill me!). Plus, if it works too good and my double-staged flybarless 15s Neu continues to work so good, I'll have to buy another $400 PowerJazz, and another $7-800 flybarless set-up for it (I'm a dead man!).

Cheers,
TomC

[bathmagic]

tom 120 for a main gear is crazy!


we need to chat on the phone i think

i have PMed you my number

Dale

[TomC]

Dale,

Great chatting with you mate. I sure wish you and Adam (ozace) lived closer, we'd have a ball. Sounds like your 12s stretched Razor w/TT tail is going to be a real 90 sized world-beater. Maybe MA will take note and use this for the Ion-x3! Please keep in touch Mate.

Guys, Just a quick update;

I took the Helicommand Rigid off my 15s Ion-x and went back to the Stratus head. For my style of flying, I did not really see a lot of advantages in keeping it flybarless. The overall flybarless performance was a little better and I gained ~0.5 min runtime (8 min vs 7.5 min), but these improvements were pretty marginal imop. The noise levels are a bit higher with the flybar, but I kind of like that anyway. The total weight difference is only ~150g more with the flybar set-up (not much on a 5kg heli). The MA stratus head is sooo good and together with 15s power, I'm loving it!

I re-installed the Helicommand Rigid unit back on my 10s Trex600 (w/ TT tail). The flybarless set-up improvements are much more noticable on this heli. The main thing I like is that it makes this 50 sized heli (3.6kg all up weight) really feel like a 90 (it's too quiet though!). It's a lot more solid, esp. in high winds. The runtimes are ~+1 min higher (8 min vs 7 min). Flybarless on this heli is a much better bang-for-buck imop. The 15s Ion-x has a lot more size and presence (which I really like). But to be honest, this flybarless Trex600 fly's as well. The stock Align head is no match for the MA Stratus head but when you go flybarless, this does not seem to make much difference.

Here is a picture of my Trex600 HC-Rigid Flybarless set-up (you can see the equipment used on my signature w/ Radix 600 main blades. I use the same servos as my Ion-x; Fut 9252's on cyclic, Fut 9254 on tail, and Align 6A 5.8v reg with 5.1 step-down on tail servo). The FP Evolite (version 1.0, 17C) 2x5s 4250 packs shown on this do not live here anymore (crappy cells imop) and I'm only using Evo25 3700's now.

Cheers,
TomC

[shamen222]

Got the kinks out of the Razor today at a Local club VARCHA (http://www.varcha.org/) here in virgina USA...guys that Razor is no Joke... when its dialed in...it is one of the smoothest heli's I have ever flown. Now I dont have the stick time that all of you have... but wow... and Power to spare. I cant even imagine what it would be like on 12s... on 10s and only 11 deg of (positive) pitch it was radicuelus (meant to spell it that way you spell check freaks) thanks again for all the help you guys..