15s Ion-x on the way!

[TomC]

I've just ordered a new lower kv version of the Neu to try on 15s (3x5s packs in series, 1 on one side and 2 on the other) and a PowerJazz esc for my double staged 20:1 Ion-x. The motor is a Neu 1521/2Y, finned w/5mm shaft, and is 780kv (versus 1050 kv on my current 10s Neu 1521/1.5f setup).

I thought it made sense to try 15s since I have ~20 5s Evo 3700 packs. My secondary gear wear has been pretty good lately, but if it becomes a problem on 15s, I'll just convert it to an Ion-x2, with belts.

On 15s and 20:1 ratio this should give a zero pitch unloaded hs of ~ 2150rpm. I intend to govern this down to ~1950 rpm. I guestimate I should get ~ 7.5-8 min runs with this setup. With any luck, I'll be trying this out by the end of next week. I can hardly wait!

Cheers,

Tom C

[DebianDog]

Try not to rip the belt out of it! :shock:

[TomC]

Try not to rip the belt out of it! :shock:

Dan,

Starting out with stock Ion-x double stage 50t secondary gear. If I shave them all off, I'll convert to Ion-x2 belt drive and see if I can rip them off!

Cheers,
Tom C

[busted blade]

im guessin' its gonna snap the blades in half

[DebianDog]

Dan,

Starting out with stock Ion-x double stage 50t secondary gear. If I shave them all off, I'll convert to Ion-x2 belt drive and see if I can rip them off!

Cheers,
Tom C

12S on 25C packs does rip out the gears if you do not have an X2. I have seen it. Forget about 15S if you are gonna "bring it" :YeaBaby:

[TomC]

12S on 25C packs does rip out the gears if you do not have an X2. I have seen it. Forget about 15S if you are "bring it" :YeaBaby:

Affter a lot of calc's, I think this setup should work pretty good. I guess we'll find out pretty soon!

Cheers,

Tom C

[DebianDog]

Well the X2 did not switch to dual main gears for no reason ;)

[t-rexn8]

Very interesting. I cant wait to see what happens. Where are you going to put all the batteries?

[TomC]

Very interesting. I cant wait to see what happens. Where are you going to put all the batteries?

Pretty easy on the original Ion-x layout; 1 on one side and 2x lengthwise on the other. I've done this with 4 packs before as 10s2p Evo20 7400's. This all fits well under the canopy and is easy to CG.

If (or probably when) I go to the x2 layout there is room to stack 3 of them sideways.

My PowerJazz should be here early next week, but my Neu motor looks like it might take a bit longer. They only had one with an 8mm shaft so I need to wait for Steve to make me up on with a 5mm shaft. Should not take long.

I can hardy wait to see it all go myself!

Cheers,

Tom C

[Chachin]

Looking forward to this new setup Tom! Wow stuff on order already :D. If the secondary gear won't hold up to 15S you can always sacrifice some "pop" by toning down the pitch range at the extremes (to reduce the loads). Good luck and keep us posted.

Chachin..

[TomC]

Looking forward to this new setup Tom! Wow stuff on order already :D. If the secondary gear won't hold up to 15S you can always sacrifice some "pop" by toning down the pitch range at the extremes (to reduce the loads). Good luck and keep us posted.

Chachin..

Thanks Chachin,

I'm also really looking forward to seeing how you make out with your Neu 10s setup and Ion-x2 upgrade. I've been watching it all on rcgroups and you look pretty close now!

I'm sure I'll end up upgrading to x2 belts later but, like you suggest, I will try to keep power to the head down a bit on 15s (~2.5kw max) and see if the secondary gear survives or not. I'm really more interested in increased duration and more even/efficient power delivery than brute pop anyway.

[OICU812]

15S! Holy crap Tom that heat is getting to ya! :YeaBaby: JK but holy rusty nailz batman that should be a silly willy setup indeed!

[TomC]

15S! Holy crap Tom that heat is getting to ya! :YeaBaby: JK but holy rusty nailz batman that should be a silly willy setup indeed!


No doubt about it, we got the 'Ion-Fever'. Hope you catch it again too soon Shawn. Ballistic 50's are fun to fly but better behaved 90's are soooo much nicer!

Like you, I went through a lot of stripped and worn out secondary gears with a 10s Neu setup. After lots of trial and error I found you had to do the following few things to make these secondary gears last;

- you need to support the bottom of the Neu motor via the rubber ring with enough back pressure on it so that it does not jerk forward, under torque, into the pinion into the secondary gear. I needed to elongate the holes on the bottom motor mount plate to do this. For my 15s setup I'm going to split the motor ring so I can support both front and back of the bottom of the Neu motor.

- you need to find the high-spot of the secondary (I'm just using single secondaries by the way) and set the mesh there fairly tight (Tony would say a cig paper gap only).

- you need to keep the peak watts to the head around or below 2500 watts. This means that your collective pitch should not be more than ~+/- 11 deg. This still gives very solid +90 nitro performance. Sure I can go +/- 14 deg for lots more pop (and +3kW), but all I'll do is strip secondary gears (or main 100t gears in the case of my Actro single-stage Ion).

Using these guidlines, I have been able to make just about every single width secondary gear almost wear-free for the last few months.

This has given me the confidence to try this 15s setup with the new Neu 1521/2Yf motor, PowerJazz, and 50t secondary (20:1). I think it's going to work out great, and the worst case is that I will need to go to and X2 upgrade/belt system.

As far as my Actro single-stage setup goes, I'm very happy just to leave it on 10s for now. I'll probably look at modifying the battery mounts a bit to fit in higher capacity/duration packs. This is a lot easier to do with the SS than the DS setup.

Best cheers,

Tom C

[TomC]

Just a quick update mates.

I got my PowerJazz esc in less than a week form ordering it from Bobby, at espritmodels. Man, this is a big esc! You really have to see it to believe it.

I'm still waiting to get my Neu 1521/2y, but I thought I might as well try out the esc anyway.

I reprogrammed the esc with my prog card to 3.0v/cell soft shut-off, gov mode and fixed throttle low/high endpoints. I did the usual normal flight mode thing at ~ negative 0.5 deg pitch to dial in the headspeed. I found the max hs at ~88% throttle (with my DX7 tx). When I've done this with my jazz 55-10-32 esc, I usually find that the max is also ~ 88% throttle.

Anyway, started it all up and got the beeps (much quieter than my other jazz esc, probably due to the fact that it's buried within a waterproof capsule. Nice slow, smooth 12sec startup and all worked well.

I had a 48t secondary gear (19.2:1 ratio) on it and the max hs was about what I would have ecpected with a 50t (~1900rpm). The same thing happened to me when using my hacker 77-heli esc and I needed to increse the timing to 8 deg to get the extra punch I expected. Overall, it worked very well.

Rather than muck around with timing, I've just replaced the secondary gear with a 50t one and will try this again later this week. This is the gear ratio (20:1) I want to try with 15s and the Neu 1521/2Y anyway.

If this all goes well and I am still waiting for my new Neu motor, I might try 15s by dialing the Esc down. Mel, do you really think I can do this without burning up the esc? What can I expect? Thanks.

Cheers,
Tom C

[nicco]

There is no problem do dail down on a PowerJazz. I ran 50% on my 15s Predator with Actro 32-4 on 9:1 gearing. It was not even slightly hot.

I run my 55-10-32 on 70% and they are about 20-25C after 7 mins!

My ION-X2 will arrive tomorrow!

/N

[TomC]

Nicco,

Thanks for that information. One thing I worry about dialing the gov mode pretty low (~40% in my case) is that I find the jazz esc on my 10s setup seems to surge to high rpm (~100% throttle setting) when you first start it up in a low idle-up setting before it settles down to the lower rpm setting. If it does this on 15s It might try to spin the blades initially at ~2800 rpm, this would not be too good for this heli. I think I'll just wait until I get my proper 15s motor.

Good luck with your new Ion-x2. Let us know how you make out mate.

Cheers,
Tom C

[3D Heli ireland]

Quote: "Try not to rip the belt out of it!"

No, do try, really, fly the crap out of it!! Lets see what it can take........

Keep us all informed on this one.....

[TomC]

Quote: "Try not to rip the belt out of it!"

No, do try, really, fly the crap out of it!! Lets see what it can take........

Keep us all informed on this one.....

While I'm not really after a +3-4kv heli, I will probably try to run my Ion-x1 until the 50t secondary goes, just to see it's limits. After that, I'll probably give the Ion-x2 belts a test as well!

I'm still waiting (+2 weeks now) for Steve Neu to send me a new 1521/2Y motor (780kv) to give 15s a proper go. I will admit, I'm a bit impatient, and a couple of days ago I tried 15s with my 1521/1.5 (1050kv) 20:1 (50t secondary) setup. I dialed down the PowerJazz gov to 1950 hs (~30% gov throttle). I put on my trusty old on-board wattsup meter.

First, I tried some gentle hovers and the meter showed 1.3kw and 24 amps max. This is about 6-8 amps lower than I have ever got with 10s and at about the same 1.3 kw. After ~5 min, the packs and esc were actually cool to touch, the motor was about normal (~145 deg F), and the packs (3x5s Evo20 3700's) only took back 1500 mahr's, or ~ 18 amps avg.

Next I tried a couple of ~5 min of gentle forward flights, each with 2x hard climb-outs (@ 11 deg pitch). The heli flew great. The climb rate was a bit stronger than my 10s SS Actro 32-3 setup and there was no sign of bogging in the climb-outs. In both flights, the current draw was ~70 amps max, The max kw hit 3.1 kv, the batteries and esc were cool to touch, and the motor was ~ 185 deg F. In both runs, the batteries put back only ~ 1800 mahrs (~22 amps avg). Also, after all 3 runs, there was no noticable wear on the 50t secondary gear.

This brief experiment has shown me a few useful things. First, the PowerJazz really can handle low load conditions, and secondly, my current 1521/1.5 motor is only going to overheat if I hit it with this kind of voltage, or higher, for long. Also, gently regulated, the 50t secondary gear CAN handle up to 3.1 kw!

For now, I'll put this on the back-burner until my 1521/2Y motor gets here. Hopefully this will be soon. I'll let you know.

Cheers,
Tom C

[nicco]

I guess I can run my (or MrMels) Actro 32-3 on the 11:62 gearing I have now with a 30% on my powerjazz.

I'm in the process of building an ION-X2 with CSM flybarless setup. The quality of ION is asome!

/N

[TomC]

I guess I can run my (or MrMels) Actro 32-3 on the 11:62 gearing I have now with a 30% on my powerjazz.

I'm in the process of building an ION-X2 with CSM flybarless setup. The quality of ION is asome!

/N

Nicco,

While you can dial down the PowerJazz to anything you want , this does not mean it is the most efficient thing to do. It still is best to properly match the motor and gearing for the # of cells you want to run. This is why I'm waiting for a proper 15s motor, rather than waste my time with a dialed down 10-12s motor.

The 32-3 is a good 10-12s motor. On 12s, with your curent ratio, you should be able to govern ~1950-2000 hs no problem. If you want to run 15s then imop you would be better to use an Actro 32-4 (415kv) with a ratio ~ 10.6:1.

Talk to Mel, I'm sure he can advise you.

Cheers,
Tom C

[nicco]

Nicco,

While you can dial down the PowerJazz to anything you want , this does not mean it is the most efficient thing to do. It still is best to properly match the motor and gearing for the # of cells you want to run. This is why I'm waiting for a proper 15s motor, rather than waste my time with a dialed down 10-12s motor.

Cheers,
Tom C

Tom,

I am aware of that. I just wanted to have a backup plan for the big funfly next weekend. I have ordered some pulleys to get a proper gearing for the 32-3. I also waiting for a Neu motor...

Regards
Niklas

[TomC]

Niklas,

I see what you're doing now. For the short-term this is probably fine. Just be careful you don't over-rev things. I had a few problems with trying to get a fairly constant governed hs on 15s with the PowerJazz.

The first time I set the hs (to 1950 rpm) I found that this was a throttle pont of 27%. When I restarted it, next pack, and started in idleup at 27% the hs first spooled up to close to 1950 and then quickly reduced itself to 1750 rpm. I then had to up this to 45% to get 1950 hs again. When I restated with another pack (I used the same old formula Evo20 packs to try to be consistent) at 45% throttle I could hear the rpms going well above 1950 so I hit throttle hold, spooled down and went back to normal mode and ramped it up to 1950. This happened at 30% this time. I repeated things and at 30% got a lower ~1850 hs and had to up this to ~35% to get 1950 hs again.

To make a long story short, I never could get a predicted gov'd hs by just sarting up in idleup. I seemed to me that you have to set and start with a slightly higher gov'd hs, say 2050, in my case and then use another idleup to drop this down to say 1950.

My feeling in that the fixed endpoints you setup with the prog card do not work in gov mode, but at this point, I'm not really sure. I did try fixed mode (non-gov mode) with throttle curves and it did seem to honor these endpoints fine. The only problem I had then was that I had to start up in normal mode and slowly spool up since the soft statup is way to fast to startup in idleup.

I know a few others with lots more experience on the PowerJazz (like Mel) so I hope they chime in.

Edit; Got a PM from Mel, thanks. One problem is that I did try a couple of restarts with the same packs to check that the settings were consistent. Mel points out you cannot do this because the PJazz will see a lower pack voltage and adjust it's gov output lower. I'll make sure I only restart with fresh packs from now on and hopefully I'll hone into a more consistent Idle-up hs.

Cheers,
Tom C

[misskimo]

hey , got that 15s bug huh? a few things to point out that was said in the first page, 15s with the right setup will be easier on the mechanics than the 12s hot ass 5000 watt Wattybotts was useing 6 months ago, dumping 2 6s 5000 ma batteries less than 5 min isnt good for the gears at all , thats hitting some BIG amps , big amps is the killer of gears. another good way to put it , instead of letting the amps produce your power , let the voltage do it instead. the batteries we have today is all for the best , my old 14s heavy Ion had some grunt , different kind of power under the hood . how it acted was what I liked about it .
Winter is here, just in 2 days , it went from 40 to high 40s to low teens to high teens . its going to get depressing for little ole me , Oh , got a box coming in the mail. one of my ole Ions was missing home ,

[TomC]

Thanks for that info Tony. I'm banking on the 15s setup being easier on mechanics, like you said. Probably a lot more 'constant' power rather than the jerkity-jerkity pumping of Bobby Watts. I saw him rip his Ion-x2 on 12s Evo25 5000's with +/- 17 deg pitch. It was very impressive, but it's not the way I want to fly it.

I JUST got my new Neu 1521/2Y (780 kv) motor in the mail today! I can hardly wait to try it out at our local heli fly day on Sunday. I'll let you know how it works out.

I hate to rub it in, but we are having some beautiful spring weather down-under, 75-80 deg f. Glad to hear one of your old Ion's found it's way home Mate. It must be a 'Homing Heli'!

Best cheers,

Tom C

[nicco]

How much tesion should it be on the belt. Should I be able to press it in 2, 5 or 10mm?

/N