10S Build

[ukgroucho]

Well I finally got the 10S build finished.

Here are some notes on build stuff and some pics - I'll include this stuff in multiple posts (not all here so follow the thread).
I did not have time to do a full build log (work got in the way) but I'll try to summarise stuff that I found that may be useful and I'm happy to try to answer questions - just post to this thread and I'll get back to you when I have time.

Some basics...

- Gaui CF Hurricane 550 kit + 'full' CNC head (although it's not REALLY a FULL CNC head).
- Z-Power 30 800Kv motor (see below for my comments on Kv..)
- Kontronik 55-10-32 ESC. I really wanted the much publicised 55-16-30 (with 10S SBEC) but apparently it does not exist... I even emailed Kontronik and they tell me that they never built it (too bulky.. unreliable? - my guess)
- so I needed a SBEC. Hyperion TiCool 3S-10S BEC 4 Amp continous, 5 amp peak.
- DX7 DS821 servos for cyclic and a 401 / 9254 tail combo. TiCool BEC has a 5V/6V jumper.. using 5V right now as the 9254 cannot do 6V. Have a Trex 600E 5V step down on order and will use that on the 9254 and flip to 6V for the 821s at some stage.
- RCP 500 CF blades ( I think this would 'carry' bigger blades well and will look at 525/550s in the future.)
- RevCo Perfect Circle gears and pinion - 68t Primary, 61t Main, see below for pinion.
- QuickUK CNC tail blade holders (thanks mbigby2!). Very nice fit.

Now here is the 'sweet spot'... Hextronik 5S 2300MaH 20C-30C packs. Just over $100 per pair.

For initial setup I put the heli on a garden table and stuck a length of 2-4 thru the skids. Eagletree logger installed with the external LCD panel set up to show HS (and other stuff).

Initially I stuck a 20t RevCo on .. I expected 2200 -2300 HS. It maxed out at 2650+, with 'static' amps in the 15 amp range - way more than I expected. Tried different T curve settings but no change really... motor RPM was up around 28000... the limit (past the limit) for this kind of outrunner.

Went and swapped to an 18t (smallest I had). Still running 2600 ish static but amp draw dropped a little.

I ended up dropping the throttle to 65% (governor on Jazz) to get HS in the 2400 range. I'm really starting to wonder if this is a mis-labelled 1100Kv motor!

Anyhoo. I did a couple of test hovers & FF today (running in new packs) and it is very nice. I have the feeling that it ('she') is heavy compared to other 550s - lots of CNC and bigger motor / packs.

[ukgroucho]

Sooo.. what did I find.

Some basics that Mr Bob Finless has done a great of describing ( and a few other things).

- If its a plastic ball link then investigate and (likely) replace it - too little thread on most connectors to provide a safe link..
- Metal fixtures you MUST check for CA (just as hit and miss as Align). Also make sure that you are happy with the length of the 'bolts'.
- Connector rod lengths for my kit were still TOO SHORT. I bought a pack of Raptor links as per Bob (Finless) suggestions and that worked a treat,.

One thing I'd heavily criticise Gaui on is the 'mean' attitude towards fasteners. THEY SUCK.. it is hard to trust a Gaui fastener.. if it's self tapping then it's too short, if it's into CNC then sporadic CA, if it's a rod, it is too short to allow safe connections.....
THIS IS A SAFETY ISSUE! FIX IT.

I really like the kit... but this BS sucks.

Servo mounting. The bigger servo wheels that Bob describes are great except for one thing. I found that they were binding (see left picture).. well the servo control links were binding. I ended up cutting mine down (the wheels) as shown (right picture).

[mbigby2]

It doesn't surprise me that you're getting pretty outrageous HS on 10S. I'm getting 2450 @100% with the same setup but 8S and 23T. Do you have eagletree or wattmeter readings of the voltage to the motor at those speeds?

My back of the envelope says that at 18T you should be about 2400 RPM:

10 * 3.7V * 800 RPM/V * 18T / 68T * 19T / 61 T = 2440.

In order to hit 2600 with the same setup, all your packs would need to do is put out 3.9V instead of 3.7V. 13-14 amps is small potatoes for those packs, maybe they are holding their voltage up that high.

For that matter, if your motor kV was off by 6%, you'd be there too. Anyone have any idea what the tolerance level is on motor kV's?

[Mikej]

Also bear in mind that when the packs are full you will be getting 4.1V not 3.7V

[ukgroucho]

Yeah I know.. but I have to back the T curve off to 65% to get 2400.
Now this MAY be an issue with my Jazz... 'cos it seems to have died. I've had sporadic issues with this unit since new (last week) and now it simply refuses to initialise. DAMN... gotta get this swapped out I think.

The HS was just SO far from what I expected....
Yes I have Eagletree logs for all of the flights on this heli. :)

I got in 3 short (5 min) flights today before the Jazz played up. Progressively more 'agressive' (I'm breaking in the packs) so hovering, FF, FFF (fast!..) and a few rolls. It flies really nicely... very nice indeed.

I've not gone thru tail servo / 401 'neutral' setup yet as it seemed to behave resonably well but I did think the tail was a bit slow (I'm used to super quick Trex 450 tails).
Once I get the Jazz sorted I'll dial in the tail better...

For those that are interested..
5 minute flights - hover, FF / FFF (increasingly agressive) took between 1100 and 1220MaH from the 2300MaH packs (at 2400 HS).

[Kepler]

I like what you have done and am keen on the HV setup also but want to still keep my head speed down to 2100. For me this is plenty and gives a good balance between manouverability and flight time. Also safer and not so hard on mechanics.

But at 10C, motor RPM and ESC switching rate becomes critical so I am keen on keeping the motor KV downaround the 500kv range. This will keep the motor under 20,000 rpm and as such well within the range of most motors.

Problem is finding a suitable motor. Any suggestions?

[ukgroucho]

There is a Z30 600Kv listed on their web site...

I did email Gary at TPPacks about the RPM for the Z30 800 I'm using.. their web site is 'unclear'. They list a Z30 - 800Kv (20K RPM) and a Z30SS - 800Kv rated to 26K RPM but these do not seem to match up well to what we can buy.
Gary's view was that the new A series motors have a new core with a fan that supports high(er) RPM.

FWIW my motor is coming down 'just warm' after 5 minutes of 'battery break in' FFF and hovering...

Right now (according to the Eagletree data) mine is running ~2400HS and 26K motor RPM... with a 600Kv version of the same motor (if it exists) then you'd be right around 20K RPM for the motor but only 1800HS so you would need to go to a 19t or 20t pinion.

I've no idea if this motor actually exists. or where you'd get one.

EDIT: incidentally... I'd like to play with 17t or maybe 16t pinions but do not seen these as options in the Hard One (perfect circle) 0.6M range.. 18t is as small as they go. Does anyone have any guidance?

[mbigby2]

Kepler,

Why not put a Kontronik Tango 600 45-6 in it? Weight is only ~20g more than the Z-Power Z30 and the kV's better for 10S. Just for the record, the Hurricane rocks on the Z30-800 and 8S. 10S isn't necessary for this heli - though I dig the excess, particularly if you go to a shorter blades and boom.

[ukgroucho]

You gotta remember one of my drivers here - availability of low cost 2300MaH 20C to 30C 5S packs from Hextroniks. Sure they are not the 'best' packs in the world but they are pretty good and at a little over $50 a piece they make for a very low cost high performance setup.

The other driver for this was my experiences with Trex 450 derived helis. I have 3... all Rotorworkz frames - G3 runs 3S, G4 x2 running 4S and 5S.
The 5S has proven to be the most solid performer.. not finicky in the least about packs (they never get past warm) no balance issues, motor (Neu 1107) stays cool and I get good length flights at 2800+ HS. Biggest issue is finding small 5S packs.

4S is more finicky but very good when set up right - but the packs get a little warmer.
3S (IMO) just over-stresses everything.. unless you're happy to run 2600 HS.

Now, to be fair, battery technologies are moving on and there are some great (efficient, high performance) motors out there - but this applies equally to the HV packs and motors so the benefits don't go away.

I thought about 8S... and if there were some low cost 'decent' 2600s around I'd probably have gone that way.

[noguy]

Kepler,

Why not put a Kontronik Tango 600 45-6 in it? Weight is only ~20g more than the Z-Power Z30 and the kV's better for 10S. Just for the record, the Hurricane rocks on the Z30-800 and 8S. 10S isn't necessary for this heli - though I dig the excess, particularly if you go to a shorter blades and boom.


mbigby2, Do you know of any other low kv motors that will work in this heli on 4s that are not $250 ???

[mbigby2]

4S or 10S?

For 4S:

I think you could try 1500 watt 1100kV motor that everyone is using from ReadyHeli. With the 16T pinion and the 42T main gear, my estimate is that the top HS on this is nearly 2000 rpm. Governed down to 88%, that gets you to about 1650 - flyable if sluggish. Its pretty low cost and will nice things on 6S.

I think 4S is going to be tricky on this heli. Mine hovers at about 350 watts. Assuming that is true regardless of the packs you put on it, you are going to need about 24 amps to hover: 350 watts / (3.7 volts * 4) and probably 2x that to do reasonable flight. You are going to need a fairly high capacity pack, I'd guess 4000 mAh. I'd also go with the short boom and short rotor blades. These will reduce the power required somewhat.

for 10S,

I think you are out of luck...

[noguy]

Sorry I meant 8s.... I have several 4s packs for my TT mt and would like to be able to stay with the same packs without having to drop $250 on a motor...
Someone just pointed out to me that the TP z30 is only a $100....
Is that the motor you are reffering to from ready heli????

Thank you for the help,
Noah

[mbigby2]

Sorry I meant 8s.... I have several 4s packs for my TT mt and would like to be able to stay with the same packs without having to drop $250 on a motor...
Someone just pointed out to me that the TP z30 is only a $100....
Is that the motor you are reffering to from ready heli????

Thank you for the help,
Noah

Nope. I was talking about this 6S motor:

http://www.readyheli.com/H_24_11H_1500_Watt_1100_Kv_Brushless_Outrunner_Mot _p/310102.htm

For 8S, the Z-Power Z30-800 is the business:

http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/product_info.php?cPath=36_40&products_id=1541