CSM CarbSmart- Mixture control - Heli Crash

[Aviation addict]

If you’re thinking of buying a CarbSmart when the production models come out, then I’d be careful.

I purchased a pre-production CarbSmart from RealRaptors and fitted it to my Synergy N9 a few weeks ago and the result was that as my heli spooled up for its trial CarbSmart flight there was a series of undemanded cyclic inputs and as a consequence the heli jumped up off the ground and applied full left roll. As you can imagine the damage was pretty severe, despite me hitting throttle hold just prior to impact.

What CSM didn’t allow for when designing the CarbSmart was that some guys out there (like me) are using the SGP Reactor along with the JR DS10 Receiver and as a consequence have the “Battery” port on their receiver free. When using these two products in conjunction with the CarbSmart it is essential that you don’t power your CarbSmart from the “Battery” port - otherwise your helicopter will crash. I have since found out that there are other Regulators being used by the masses that leave you with a free battery port on your receiver too.

When I called up Colin Mill at CSM, the day after the crash he admitted that the signal line on the Carbsmart could cause undemanded reactions from the servos if plugged into the “Battery” port and that they were unaware of the different regulators on the market such as the SGP reactor. During this phone I was offered two production CarbSmarts by way of apology, but this changed to an offer of ‘nothing whatsoever’ after a nights sleep and quite possibly consulting Wendy Mill.

It appears that if you help CSM out with some research and development and your machine crashes then you’re on your own. Although having said that, I am no hero test pilot. I purchased my two pre-production units from Real Raptors at full price along with another 60 odd people!

In case you are wondering - the Carbsmart instructions sheet just has a diagram saying that the Carbsmart needs ‘Power’. To me the definition of power was the Battery port.

I have since found out that a few of the CSM sponsored pilots had the same (but less severe) glitching problems after plugging into the ‘Battery’ port on their receiver but were lucky enough to get the ship back on the ground with no damage. Something that’s more telling still, is that there are some CSM sponsored pilots who have yet to fit all of their free CSM electronics. You can see why, if you have a diary full of competitions to attend and there’s a chance that fitting a new prototype gadget will crash your machine.

I’ll certainly be boycotting all CSM goods in the future on principle, along with all the friends at my club and local shop, despite being a good CSM customer and attending many of Colin‘s seminars held at the 3D Masters over the years.

I flew a sponsored friends (CSM) Flybarless heli the other week and feel sure that it will be the future, however I’ll be waiting for Curtis’ system!

Photo of my mixture control Installation on N9 (on RealRaptors site);

http://www.real-kbase.co.uk/csm_mixture.html


Published 'Post crash' warning to other CarbSmart users - no Matelle re-call though (remember only 60 sold!)

http://www.realraptors.co.uk/zen-ca...ews&news_id=133

Crash damage £300. Blades, Main shaft, Axle shaft, Flybar, Tail boom, Torque drive, Main gear, Boom supports, 3 servo gear sets, Custom painted Canopy, etc....

[Aviation addict]

Any comments?

My fault? Not my fault?

As I said to CSM in writing after the incident, without a clear warning like " under no circumstances plug the CarbSmart into the Battery port on a JR receiver" then how am I to know what will happen next? You shouldn't need an electronics degree, and have to start testing a product to see what sort of signals it is putting out before fitting it. You tend to assume that that's all been done if its for sale in a shop.

Thanks goodness knowone was hurt or killed!

This could also happen if you are using an Arizona Regulator too I've discovered, as that one also leaves you with a Battery port free.

PS Is anyone in the Legal profession at all? I'd like to persue this with CSM and would be grateful for some advice. Maybe you could PM me?

[Aviation addict]

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t374805p1/?p=2970939

[WillJames]

I have known a lot of people flying pre-production stuff and I have done it myself. It costs extra a lot of times, but if you ask for it, and know it is pre-production, then it is all you.

[Aviation addict]

It was available in a 'shop'. I didn't twist anyone's arm to get a hold of one. Don't remember seeing a warning saying use at your own risk (this is an experimental unit) either. If its not ready for the public to buy - then don't put it in a shop. Thats what I think anyway.

[PaulH]

If you knowingly bought a pre-production version, then I'd say you have no recourse whatsoever.

Software manufacturers release beta products all the time, but the boilerplate legal agreement absolves them of any responsibility should the worst happen to your computer. The same concept applies here.

[Aviation addict]

We're talking about fitting a device to a 1.5 metre circular saw here though - where the worst that can happen is 'it kills someone'. Shouldn't it be safe and fit for use if available to the public?

[Jafa]

Have you never heard of "limited liability"?
Most consumer products are sold on that basis (outside the USA - LOL),
limited to replacement or refund of what was sold, not what was damaged

It does not matter what device you purchase and what you install it on
Scuba divers could die if their regulator fails, but there is no recourse

If you use your heli within the guidelines of your insurance umbrella
it's very unlikely that anybody will be harmed - regardless of the failure reason and type
Here in Australia this means spectators are 30 meters from the pilot's flight line,
more than enough time and space for hold to have the desired effect.

Have you not seen the recent video where Alan Szabo was interviewed prior to a flight?
He described the occurance of a "hover rollover" post a rebuilt
Alan's comment was merely "it happens!".

Best you get over it this crash, it's part and parcel of this hobby

[Rogan]

Unlucky dude, that really sucks.

My CC esc has bundled my 450 on a number of occasions, due to glitches. There's no comeback from that. I don't really see how the CSM glitching is any different.

[david.read]

John,

This is posted in the description on MidlandHelicopters site in the UK.

Please note: the Smart Carb supply must not be plugged into the battery/DSC port on your RX, please us a spare channel or Y-lead

I guess this is an after message, knowing what they know now.......

Speed.

[Aviation addict]

Hi David,

Yes, a warning went up on Real Raptors site too just after my incident. I think my crash coincided with someone else's which prompted a response.

As far as I'm aware though Carbsmart Crashes could still occur - as the signal wire is still used on the power lead for the unit, and when I last read the Instructions for a Production Carbsmart it still failed to warn you Not to use the Battery port if it happens to be available on your set-up. I think this is because it would upen the flood gates for compensation claims from people in my position. It would basically be an admission of the fault. I suppose its cheaper (but more dangerous for the customers) to bury your head in the sand.

What can you do?

I'm still using my unit, and like what it does. Didn't appreciate what it did for the heli just after the initial fit though.

[Pinecone]

Sounds like a company I will not be doing business with.

[daument]

FWIW,
Many years ago I was flying a brand new X-cell 60 (bent aluminum frame) and on the first flight it chucked a MAS Rotorsport blade coming out of a split "s". The heli proceeded to explode and it was a total loss. I called Ted @ MAS and he stated that he wanted to look at it. I boxed it up and shipped the entire crashed bird along with a broken OS 61,Hatori horseshoe pipe and a trashed Futaba PCM flight pack. The blade left the heli in one piece as the 4mm blade bolt pulled a 4mm wide slot right out of the blade and root reinforcement. MAS's reply after looking at it was "what do you want?". I felt a replacement was fair as the blade was definitely defective. After a few conversations they agreed to replace the kit at cost. I was out the radio gear , a pipe, an OS carb and crankcase and about $200.00 to replace the heli at cost. Was I happy? Not at the time but at least they did SOMETHING! Right after that the Rotorsport blades came with plastic root reinforcements that you had to CA together yourself ( relieving MAS of future liability). My 2¢ Dave

[bruno95]

Hy Guys,

Short mail just to tell you that i also crash my Synergy thanks to the Carbsmart module !!!
Carbsmart power cable was connected to power connector of my receiver (i'm using arizona regulator so power input of the receiver was free to use).
In fact, my receiver is graupner IFS (same as XPS 2.4ghz). and was completely unprogrammed in flight thanks to the carbsmart (Only half of the servos output working). After "Reset to factory", the receiver is working fine again.
I could also reproduce the phenomena once at home with same configuration.

I think CSM should not provide power cable with signal wire on it. In this case none of us would have any trouble.
So solution for all carbsmart user is to remove the signal pin from the power cable. That's it !

This shows that not only JR receiver can have problem but also any receiver that is using power supply connector signal pin for any usage in the receiver.

For info, i'm using carbsmart on other heli and back on synergy with this mod without any trouble anymore.

But thanks to CSM, it costed me 400 Euro to repair my heli !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best regards.

Bruno.

[Aviation addict]

Hi Bruno,

I'm genuinely very sorry to hear you've also suffered a costly Synergy crash due to CSM's Carbsmart unit.

Apparently despite giving the appearance that the Carbsmart unit only takes power from the receiver, it does produce a small signal, which then travels back along the signal wire into the receiver causing all sorts of problems. For me it manifested itself as an uncommanded full up, full roll input on the Swash (which I was also able to reproduce on my backup machine).

I agree that CSM should simply have removed the 'signal wire' or at the very least given a warning that this could happen in the instructions.

When I had my incident, they had only sold a small handful of units and could have easily given me some kind of compensation but gone on to rectify the problem as discussed above, by removing the wire. Now of course it is too late to remove the signal wire on new units as this would be an admission that the unit can crash your machine. As they will have sold thousands of Carbsmarts this would open the flood gates to potentially hundreds of dissatisfied customers wanting compensation.

Have you tried to get any compensation out of Colin at CSM? I hounded him for quite some time but never got a thing. Not even an apology. Although initially over the phone I got an admission that the unit could well have caused my crash and that he'd give me a couple of new Carbsmarts as some sort of compensation. This offer was rapidly withdrawn though as 'burry your head in the sand syndrome' took over.

I was so angry about the loss of my heli, and the fact that a company can produce a product which could end causing a lethal accident that I did start to look into the legal side of things.

I've heard from one source that Colin at CSM is basically a good chap, an academic keen to advance hobby of model helicopters in any way he can. I doubt though that the person I heard that line from has ever had a CSM product smash their heli to bits then get told by CSM to 'get lost' when they legitimately lodge a complaint!

[Vinger]

Range check done before flight?

Not to be nasty, but I ALWAYS do a range check before flying anything new fitted to my helicopters.

[Aviation addict]

Yes I did a range check. I always do too.

Just make sure you don't plug it into the Batt port on your Receiver otherwise all hell may brake loose and you won't have any back up from CSM!

Am so glad that this incident triggered me into not purchasing any more CSM products. I've discovered a whole new world like - the Mikado V-Bar system. Fantastic product with great Back up from Mikado.