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fly4fun299999
10-07-2007, 09:50 AM
Hi freaks,

yesterday I had my first 3 succesful test flights with my flybarless TRex600. It felt quite different while flying, very twichy around the middle stick and sort of delayed too. I use Cyclock, 2 CSM 720 gyros and Fut. 9255 servos on swash.
I sure have to adjust the params but don't know exactly how. Maybe somebody can help me.

Thanks and regards
Laszlo

fireup
10-07-2007, 10:30 AM
Can you post your 720 settings and how you're mounting the 2 gyros?

skeppley
10-07-2007, 10:43 AM
Beautiful Laszlo!
I wish I could help, but not many people have done it yet. So I'm anxiously awaiting other responses. I would really like to do it also.
Did you need anything special besides the cyclock and 2 gyros?
Can any 2 gyros be used, or are they part of the cyclock?
Lots of questions here.

fly4fun299999
10-07-2007, 10:49 AM
Hi Kevin,

my 720 settings are (see pics):

I took those params originally from trextuning.com

I mounted the gyros as so.

Thanks for helping!

fireup
10-07-2007, 11:32 AM
I don't have my computer cable with me at the moment to get my settings...

Here's how I mount mine.

I've notice that it's not as twitchy if I use leading edge control than if it were trailing edge control.

Also, when I added the copper plates, it eliminated a LOT of noise I've been getting from my gears/bearings/motor. (I also ground the plate to the 0V of my gyro). I also switch from using servo tape and use the thick spongy tape that comes with the gyro. This help out a lot also.

fireup
10-07-2007, 11:42 AM
Beautiful Laszlo!
I wish I could help, but not many people have done it yet. So I'm anxiously awaiting other responses. I would really like to do it also.
Did you need anything special besides the cyclock and 2 gyros?
Can any 2 gyros be used, or are they part of the cyclock?
Lots of questions here.

Gyro that has separate rate gain and heading lock gain works best with flybarless setup. The only gyro that has this features that I know of at the moment is the CSM720.

fly4fun299999
10-07-2007, 11:48 AM
Thank you Kevin! I will try using leading edge control and using the spongy tape first to tame it. Also I will mount a copper plate. Anyways I'd be happy if you could post your settings some time.

Thanks Skeppley! As far as I know with the Cyclock1 you need 2 CSM 720 gyros. I don't know whether other gyros would work.
Of course you have to strip the head, but else it's all standard Align parts you can use (swashplate driver).

Regards Laszlo

cbdane
10-08-2007, 09:52 AM
Of course you have to strip the head, but else it's all standard Align parts you can use (swashplate driver).

Very cool 4fun. Could you post a couple of more photos of the head from different angles. My brain is having trouble figuring out what you have done. Also, do you have a link to the Trex600 forum for this work? I'm a "Freak" to the core but I'm always interested in learning more.

Thanks for the post! Also, thank in advance to FireUp for sharing your programming setup!!

fly4fun299999
10-08-2007, 10:06 AM
Thanks cbdane!
No problem, I will take some more detailled pictures of the head this evening. I was taking some basics and ideas and the software setup from www.trextuning.com/csm-flybarless.php.
There's another one: www.p0.se/trex600
Else I was 'googleing' for other flybarless infos on different sites. Over at RR they just opened a new forum especially for flybarless systems. Maybe you can find some more infos there.

Until later
Laszlo

fly4fun299999
10-08-2007, 11:41 AM
For cbdane and all others who are interessed, here some more detailled pictures of my TRex600 head. Sorry for the bad quality of the pics, it's a cheap digicam.

What I don't like, is the fact, that the blade screws are now upside down. I flipped the blade holders as Kevin suggested. Either I have to find longer screws to mount them correctly or maybe Kevin can send me the beautiful head and blade holders he made himself. LOL

The other fact is the linkage between the swash and blade holders is not exactly vertical. I'm thinking of delta effect. Does it matter?

If you need more infos let me know.

Laszlo

cbdane
10-08-2007, 07:54 PM
What I don't like, is the fact, that the blade screws are now upside down. I flipped the blade holders as Kevin suggested.

Thanks for the photos!! I personally don't think that "nutz up" looks too bad.

The other fact is the linkage between the swash and blade holders is not exactly vertical. I'm thinking of delta effect. Does it matter?

Most every flybarless setup I've seen have the control rods sloping out to the grips. As long as the control balls on the swash are at 90 degrees to the feathering shaft, you shouldn't have phasing problems. Does the Cyclock allow you to adjust the phase angle so it could be used on multi-blade heads?

fly4fun299999
10-09-2007, 03:38 AM
Thanks for the photos!! I personally don't think that "nutz up" looks too bad.

It's not only the look, but I hope the screw doesn't come lose or even fall off in flight.


Most every flybarless setup I've seen have the control rods sloping out to the grips. As long as the control balls on the swash are at 90 degrees to the feathering shaft, you shouldn't have phasing problems. Does the Cyclock allow you to adjust the phase angle so it could be used on multi-blade heads?

OK, I understand. The control balls are 90 deg. to the feathering shaft.
Yes, you can adjust the phase angle in Cyclock.

cbdane
10-09-2007, 10:14 AM
It's not only the look, but I hope the screw doesn't come lose or even fall off in flight.

The way these heli's fly, I suspect that gravity has little to do with holding the screws in! :YeaBaby:

fly4fun299999
10-09-2007, 11:53 AM
The way these heli's fly, I suspect that gravity has little to do with holding the screws in! :YeaBaby:

Yeah, you're right cbdane, gravity has little to do! But you haven't seen me flying, mostly inverted, so the screw is OK upside down - :clappp

mx400
11-20-2007, 02:41 PM
Whats the cost of a CSM flybarless setup?

shanew
01-20-2008, 04:53 AM
G-day all just wondering will this system work on 600N?
Or are vibrations an issue?

Cheers
Shane

heartnspirit
01-25-2008, 01:52 AM
I think the V-Stabi is a great system for someone going flybarless on a new heli, however the CSM system is an excellent option for those who already have a good flying heli and want to go flybarless, because we usually already have a good tail gyro.

I just installed the CSM system on my 10s T-Rex 600 and I can't say enough good things about it! It has awesome collective and cyclic response and incredible stability at the same time. And the heli has a completely different sound to it. It's much, much quieter even in hard 3D maneuvers. My flying buddy was there and saw mine on the initial flights and ended up buying the same setup for his T-Rex just a couple days later. He's just as happy and amazed with his.

We both got our CSM parts from www.amainhobbies.com (http://www.amainhobbies.com). The whole system including the two SL720 gyros, Cyclock and USB programming cable is about $500. I'm sure it would work great on a nitro bird as well. Take a look at the 2007 3D Masters and you'll see a couple of the top pilots, Curtis Youngblood and Duncan Osbourn, were flying flybarless nitro heli's.

I say definitely the way of the future... and the present for me... I'm not going back!

av.emil
06-10-2008, 12:43 PM
Hi.

I like your flybarless. Im starting to think of this for my V2. Already seen one at a Fun Fly, but didn't manage to talk to the guy. I have some questions for your design.

1. Why did you have to flip the blades? From the Linkage point of view, the thing is a bit angled with the same ammount in any case. Was it for the pitch? Beacause it's not passing through the mixer arm?

2. The Washout Base
a) Why is it upside down?
b) Why is it fixed to the Main Shaft?
c) Uhm..WHY IS IT THERE?? Mainly you have linkage straight to the blades from the swash. The rest is useless...or is it?

Looking forward for your reply

Thanks.

Dynamic
06-10-2008, 10:17 PM
The other fact is the linkage between the swash and blade holders is not exactly vertical. I'm thinking of delta effect. Does it matter?

Laszlo

Yes this will take your head out of phase. This can be compensated for in software (at least is the v-stabi it can) however is not ideal. Vertical is ideal. The less compensation you have to do in software the better it will fly.

You can get spacers (as seen in the mikado vbar section at rcflightstore.com) that sapces your balls out to be in line with the mainshaft. You need to use the balls that can have a screw go through them and use a long screw though. That would make your head in phase and likely perform better.

You can see this in application here on the aftermarket head. The spacing is the same with the stock metal and stock plastic grips. (I would not recommend the stock plastic grips due to flex).
http://vstabi.de/wiki/images/a/a9/Umbauteile_18.jpg

fly4fun299999
06-11-2008, 03:37 AM
Hi.

I like your flybarless. Im starting to think of this for my V2. Already seen one at a Fun Fly, but didn't manage to talk to the guy. I have some questions for your design.

1. Why did you have to flip the blades? From the Linkage point of view, the thing is a bit angled with the same ammount in any case. Was it for the pitch? Beacause it's not passing through the mixer arm?

2. The Washout Base
a) Why is it upside down?
b) Why is it fixed to the Main Shaft?
c) Uhm..WHY IS IT THERE?? Mainly you have linkage straight to the blades from the swash. The rest is useless...or is it?

Looking forward for your reply

Thanks.

Hi Mike,

I flipped the blade holders due to the delta effect. Better response, less pitching up in FF.
As Dynamic explains, the linkages from swash to blade holder should be exactly parallel
to the main shaft. The Mikado upgrade set is a possible solution, but I don't like the plastic stuff.
I recently bought the new Align blade holders, where I can mount longer Vario balls to eliminate
the delta effect.

The washout base has to be fixed to the main shaft to function as a swash driver.
Why is is upside down? Don't know, just adapted it from another setup I saw without
thinking about it.
Anyways, I'm going to change this to the mikado swash driver.

Last but not least, I swapped the Cyclock and the CSM gyros for an AC-3X system.

Regards
Laszlo

av.emil
06-11-2008, 05:55 AM
Thanks for your reply.

I kind of understood this after I posted while looking on my Rex. The upper plate of the swash has to be driven somehow, else the linkage to the balde grip will stay behind while the head moves. In a flybar mechanics this is done with the two pins. Those move the washout base, and then the creepy linkage. If my theory is right, you can get the right angle to the blade grip just by rotating the swash and fixing the washout base in the correct position. The angled linkage is designed this way to avoid the flybar stuff -cage, seesaw. !!! This is a discussion. I don't know if what I said is right or wrong. So confirmations/infirmations are required. !!!

What is the Delta Effect?

PaulW
06-12-2008, 05:28 PM
If you move the swashplate round to get the 90 degrees for the linkage to blade holders you will move the swash out of phase, advance it, (or retard it, depending on whether you are using leading or trailing edge control) meaning that applying, for example, forward cyclic the helicopter would move diagonaly not straight.
Paul W.

av.emil
06-14-2008, 02:12 AM
Thank you Paul! Very good explanation. Makes perfect sense.
So when installing a swash driver one has to be very careful. (Usually if you have the guidance pins for the washout base its ok)

hs2miu
05-05-2009, 10:42 AM
My trex600n flybarless

http://spic.uploadd.com/2032/E75/small/97278C6D5WLE3ZV82QQ9N1JX[EW9Tjpx641241392987926929.jpg (http://www.uploadd.com/imageUpload/image.aspx?img=97278C6D5WLE3ZV82QQ9N1JX[EW9T)

http://spic.uploadd.com/2032/E75/small/97278C6D5BXOSL6YRFK93S8V98Y73jpx641241392987926930 .jpg (http://www.uploadd.com/imageUpload/image.aspx?img=97278C6D5BXOSL6YRFK93S8V98Y73)

http://spic.uploadd.com/2032/E75/small/97278CA848UQJ6G268HUKMMXFTYZ9DSCF4226.JPG (http://www.uploadd.com/imageUpload/image.aspx?img=97278CA848UQJ6G268HUKMMXFTYZ9)

http://spic.uploadd.com/2032/E75/small/97278C6D5VWVXGYT13TUCP2V96VR3ofo2w1241394175926953 .jpg (http://www.uploadd.com/imageUpload/image.aspx?img=97278C6D5VWVXGYT13TUCP2V96VR3)

http://spic.uploadd.com/2032/E75/small/97278C6D57QXFQG53XX2QZG8OB[MXx4emy1241394448926956.jpg (http://www.uploadd.com/imageUpload/image.aspx?img=97278C6D57QXFQG53XX2QZG8OB[MX)

http://spic.uploadd.com/2032/E75/small/97278C833WZAKPG6[EW463D661ZAXx4emy1241394448926960.jpg (http://www.uploadd.com/imageUpload/image.aspx?img=97278C833WZAKPG6[EW463D661ZAX)

jonathan7x70
12-15-2009, 08:25 PM
ok i got a question. i just went flybarless today and its just mechanical no electronic mixer box thingy.


Do i need a elec mixer box or can i stay mech. and whats the differance?