New 600N and getting desperate.

[captcasper7]

Just out of interest, do you have the problem when the Govenor is switched off?

Also where are your needles set on the high and low end? ( Reason I asked I leaned my top end to 4 clicks under 1.25 and the tail started wag as the engine was hunting, so I richened it up to 1.75 on the high end, tail solid as a rock again and no hunting. Just a thought.)

[Chief heli]

Thanks for the replys!

I think there are many experianced people on this side to solve it.
Problem in most cases is to explane what is happaning.
I didn't ment it that way, someone with more experiance needs to see it to tell whats wrong with her. Fly helis for 2 years, this is my 6th bird now. Did all of it without help of a club member or other pilots, just you guys!

Maybe you can post a vid on what is happaning, with a couple of detail pictures of your bird, and all your settings (transmitter, gyro, enz enz)?
Hope I can make a vid soon! Detailed info comming!
Just out of interest, do you have the problem when the Govenor is switched off?
The govener doesnt work yet! So I fly it without the govener.
Want to be sure everything is working properly before setting up te governer.

Also where are your needles set on the high and low end? ( Reason I asked I leaned my top end to 4 clicks under 1.25 and the tail started wag as the engine was hunting, so I richened it up to 1.75 on the high end, tail solid as a rock again and no hunting. Just a thought.
What do you mean by "1.75"? Rotations?
Mine is also set to 1.75 rotations from fully closed.
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More info:

Here is the problem :

I have vibrations when pumping up the headspeed.
The tailfin goes from side to side (fast!). Tail looks to go up and down also. On climb-out the tail starts to break out a bit.. I think that is cause of a low headspeed. (also suggested here)
I can't increase the gain or it starts wagging.So this rest of the setup is like a "reasonable flying setup".


This is my setup again :

Align Trex 600N sport
- OS 50 Hyper / Hatori 522 (OS50 Hyper taken out the gohbee)
- Futaba FF7 / 149 DP (soon a JR 9303 2.4)
- JR 8455 x3
- JR 820G / RevMax (revmax not working yet)
- JR 770t / 8900G
- Fromeco Arizona regulator
- Fromeco Relions 2600 mAh
- Align metal fan
- SAB 600 CF blades (matched)
- SAB 20gr paddels (matched)


Transmitter setup (FF7) :

Thr.curve normal : 10-25-35-40-65
Thr.curve idle 1 : 70-45-35-45-70

Pit.curve normal : 25-25-50-75-100
Pit.curve idle 1 : 0-25-50-75-100

Gyro (ch5) gain Normal : 25% (never tried it)
Gyro (ch5) gain HH mode : 5-8%

Endpoints ch4 (rudder) 100% - 100%
Endpoints ch5 (Gain) 100% - 100%
Subtrim ch4 (rudder) 0%
Subtrim ch5 (Gain) 0%

Revo mix : Off (no kind of any mixing)


Mechanical setup :

Ball on rudder servo: 9mm from centre
Linkage all at 90deg and running smooth!
Blades and paddles balanced (tailblades didn't test the tailblades)
Flybarrod at centre of head, paddles same distance from the flybar.
All shafts look ok. Checked the main, spindle and tailshaft.


Engine setup (os50hyper) :

High needle : 1.75 turns from fully closed.
Low : Never did anything with it. At centre as manual says.


Extra info :

OS 50 hyper survived a crash on the gohbee. She still runs powerfull so I don't think its the problem. I don't have fuelfoaming or high freq shaking in that area.

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Hope to gave some more information now. If you need more info please ask. I just can´t wait to hang it all out with this birdy!
Thanks again for all the help this far! Really appreciate it!

Greets,
Chief

[captcasper7]

What I mean by 1.75 is fully closed and opened 1 3/4 turns, but your is set to that try 2 turns open see if it improves?!!

[rototiller]

2 turns out? WOW, Mine has been 1.5 for break in and between 1 to 1 1/4 since then.

DK

[wacojoe]

Hi
I had a bad case of the shakes when I put the fisrt few flights on my bird. I found that my head speed was too high. Lowered thottle curve that one was solved.
I also has a bad case of the wags, almost too extreme to fly. played with my gain. still wag, wag, wag.
OMG I was going to pull my hair out. I was running GY401 Futaba 3151 servo, Madusa 5v regulator with TP2100mah 3cell lipo. Well I disconnected the regulator, plugged in a nickle cadium 5 cell 1100mah flight pack. Problem solved. Made me sick it was something that simple.
So I went home looked up the specs for the regulator and found out it would not support that many servos.
Not saying that your reg cant support the equipment, but if the regulator is faulty it would give you some grief. Mine did. It may be worth a shot

[tungym]

DO you put your gyro on the optional gyro mount just above the aileron servos?

Many of us have interference from the servo, and solved by putting a 1mm piece of metal underneath the gyro mount.

[rototiller]

wacojoe....Thats kinda spooky. I Got to fly my 600 today after putting a heavy duty reg on. The old one was a 5v 2 amps and the new is adjustable and 15 amp. Didnt notice till I read your post, my tail was shutter free today. Its allways had a touch of side to side to it. No big deal. I was too buisy loving the new speed of the servos to take notice. LOL.

DK

[Dré]

Hi Chief heli,

FYI

I look at your settings and I see something Intresting.

You have your rudder settings from 100%-100%
I see in the manual of the gyro, you have to set it at 140%-140% !

Also look at your gain setting:

I dont know how a Futaba trans mitter works, but on the JR I have to set is at 66-70%.
If I understand the manual of the gyro and transmitter, this means its in Headholding with a gain of 16-20%, evry thing below 50% is in the normal mode?


I hope it helps


Greets


Dré

[Chief heli]

Thanks for the replys!

What I mean by 1.75 is fully closed and opened 1 3/4 turns, but your is set to that try 2 turns open see if it improves?!!
It's tuned rich allready, how about 1.5?

Hi
I had a bad case of the shakes when I put the fisrt few flights on my bird. I found that my head speed was too high. Lowered thottle curve that one was solved. Had it to, decreased my headspeed and the problems became less.
I also has a bad case of the wags, almost too extreme to fly. played with my gain. still wag, wag, wag.
OMG I was going to pull my hair out. I was running GY401 Futaba 3151 servo, Madusa 5v regulator with TP2100mah 3cell lipo. Well I disconnected the regulator, plugged in a nickle cadium 5 cell 1100mah flight pack. Problem solved. Made me sick it was something that simple.
So I went home looked up the specs for the regulator and found out it would not support that many servos.
Not saying that your reg cant support the equipment, but if the regulator is faulty it would give you some grief. Mine did. It may be worth a shot
Shocking story, can't beleve the fromeco reg can't handle the servos. But i will give it a try, thanks

DO you put your gyro on the optional gyro mount just above the aileron servos?

Many of us have interference from the servo, and solved by putting a 1mm piece of metal underneath the gyro mount.
Gyro mounted in the backseat check the attachements

Hi Chief heli,

FYI

I look at your settings and I see something Intresting.

You have your rudder settings from 100%-100%
I see in the manual of the gyro, you have to set it at 140%-140% !
I started with the gain ATVs at 140% - 140% had the problems with that to. I thought with lower range it might be less sensitive?

Also look at your gain setting:

I dont know how a Futaba trans mitter works, but on the JR I have to set is at 66-70%.
If I understand the manual of the gyro and transmitter, this means its in Headholding with a gain of 16-20%, evry thing below 50% is in the normal mode?
Futaba has a -100 to +100 range for the gyro. Above 0 its in normal mode, below its in HH. I got it at -8% And so it is in HH mode.

Dré

I attached some more pictures for you guys.

Greets,
Chief

[erniefritz]

well , obviously there is something wrong if the machine is not flying correcty. i very seriously doubt it's mechanical or the machine if you've checked all that we have suggested. it's got to be setup or something electrical or gyro not working properly , servo going bad???... my only other suggestion is to replace the Gyro with a Futaba 611 and servo. Other than that , your going to have to take it to a LHS or flying field where someone knowledgeable can fly and diagnose what your machine is doing and what is wrong.... Sorry. :(

[erniefritz]

anthony was having somewhat of the same problem , this is what he wrote...

"I got my tail problem solve last weekend. I'm not sure if that's the correct solution, but it stopped the tail from swinging out, no matter what I do.

I kept all linkages and settings the same except for the limit setting on the gyro. When I was having a problem, my limits were approx 95 to avoid binding on either side. I bumped it up to maybe 110, but it binds and both ends on the ground. I've heard people do that and was told that even though it binds on the ground, it will never bind up there. So, what the heck, I tried it and sure it was locked in."
__________________
Anthony

[englecam]

Hi Chief,

i have already the same problem with my 600n sport and my JR 770 / 8900G. Then i put on it a GY 401 / 9254 and problem was the same

I think that my Tail guide was not in a correct position on my boom. The tail linkage was not strong and i think with the vibration , the tail wag

I change the position of my tail guide on the boom and let you know the result next week

Try if you can to add another tail guide on the boom and check your plastic seesaw. mine has got a little gap ( space with the flybar control arm ). I personnaly order a metal seesaw to reduce the gap

Bye

Thomas

[tungym]

Hi Chief,

i have already the same problem with my 600n sport and my JR 770 / 8900G. Then i put on it a GY 401 / 9254 and problem was the same

I think that my Tail guide was not in a correct position on my boom. The tail linkage was not strong and i think with the vibration , the tail wag

I change the position of my tail guide on the boom and let you know the result next week

Try if you can to add another tail guide on the boom

Bye

Thomas
Did you use 3 linkage clamps or just 2 from the stock kit?
3 is the best way to go, cos the longer linkage rod, which bends a bit in air.

[erniefritz]

you don't need 3, 2 works perfectly if your machine is set up right.

[englecam]

Hi ! currently i try with 2 tails guide. All my friend at field flies the 600n with 2 tails guide and it works perfectly


but on my heli it dosen't work lol

[tungym]

Do you try giving some resistance on the pitch slider while giving left rudder command? Then you can see what will happen with 2 linkage gliders .

[erniefritz]

the tail pitch slider doesn't encounter that much resistance in the air , you would think so but it doesn't. 2 is just fine... 3 is overkill...

[Filby]

Have you gone through and reset your main shaft blocks? I had massive vibrations and that solved it for me. Ive got a thread here somwhere which went through about 2 weeks solid of fault finding on the 600N.


Fil

[Chief heli]

Hello,

Thanks for the replys and sorry for the slow answer.

well , obviously there is something wrong if the machine is not flying correcty. i very seriously doubt it's mechanical or the machine if you've checked all that we have suggested. it's got to be setup or something electrical or gyro not working properly , servo going bad???... my only other suggestion is to replace the Gyro with a Futaba 611 and servo. Other than that , your going to have to take it to a LHS or flying field where someone knowledgeable can fly and diagnose what your machine is doing and what is wrong.... Sorry. :(
Have not much to say about this, just that i hope your not right . I dont have the stuff to test things out. Every thing is brand new and working propely IMO, dont want to beleve something is defective.

anthony was having somewhat of the same problem , this is what he wrote... Where is this threat?

"I got my tail problem solve last weekend. I'm not sure if that's the correct solution, but it stopped the tail from swinging out, no matter what I do.

I kept all linkages and settings the same except for the limit setting on the gyro. When I was having a problem, my limits were approx 95 to avoid binding on either side. I bumped it up to maybe 110, but it binds and both ends on the ground. I've heard people do that and was told that even though it binds on the ground, it will never bind up there. So, what the heck, I tried it and sure it was locked in."
How can this "binding" happen? You set the limit on the gyro, not for the rudder servo. Can't follow this. Or did he mean the gyro limit?


Hi Chief,

i have already the same problem with my 600n sport and my JR 770 / 8900G. Then i put on it a GY 401 / 9254 and problem was the same

I think that my Tail guide was not in a correct position on my boom. The tail linkage was not strong and i think with the vibration , the tail wag

I change the position of my tail guide on the boom and let you know the result next week. Did any testing yet?

Try if you can to add another tail guide on the boom and check your plastic seesaw. mine has got a little gap ( space with the flybar control arm ). I personnaly order a metal seesaw to reduce the gap
I also have a little play on the seesaw / flybar connection. But dont thinks this can be the problem? I will oder a metal seesaw and some more guidingthings for the tail when i recieve my money.. Spend all my last money on the JR 9303 2.4


Have you gone through and reset your main shaft blocks? I had massive vibrations and that solved it for me. Ive got a thread here somwhere which went through about 2 weeks solid of fault finding on the 600N. You have the thread for me? Meybe this can be the problem, but the mainshafts drops in easely.


Today I recieved a second hand engine, I will try it tommorow.

I realy don't think my electronics are bad, dont want to beleve that.
Think something mechanical is wrong. On the order i'm about to make i'm ordering all shafts, main, tail and spindle and replace them to be sure.
Also the guidence thing for the tail.


More Q's:
- Are the metal bearing blocks any good, can they be the answer for the story above from Fil?
- Want to order the align frame braces, worth it?
- Meybe a set of CF tailblades can do the job? Aligns any good?


Thanks,
Chief

[captcasper7]

Hi

- Are the metal bearing blocks any good, can they be the answer for the story above from Fil?

I replaced my bearing blocks with the Align Ally Blocks and this got rid of all vibration I had, the muffler rubber is now vey still in the hover, but with the plastic blocks it was a blur.

- Want to order the align frame braces, worth it?

Yes G-Force frame braces are worth it as they make the frame very rigid will help also in a crash. The Align side frame braces only add strength to the weak points which will help in a crash and I would assume they make the frame rigid at those points, but I did not notice any diffrence when i fitted them.

- Meybe a set of CF tailblades can do the job? Aligns any good?

Never tried Align, but CY 95mm do the job for me.

One other point I note you have your 770 gyro at the back near the tail, I moved mine to the front, purchase the front Gyro mount and put it up front, you also get a Ally frame brace for the rear with this, which also helps stop vibs through the frame at the rear, I thought if they are supplying a rear brace there must a vibration issue so this enforced my decision to move the Gyro up front, where the frame is more rigid.

Also I poorly tuned engine will cause issues with the tail.

Mike

[storm57]

I have the same problem...............one of your suggestions might be right. Tail blade replacement might be an issue here. Unbalance tail blades causes oscillation. I have the stock Align tail blades and replacing it with a RADIX 95 mm. I have my 401 gyro mounted on the rear, Align's suggestion was to move it up front. I'll try both and see what happens this weekend. I have also noticed I had a high headspeed on IDLE UP 1 / 2 where tail fin starts oscillating. (I am using an Aerospire Multigov). Reduced it down. I'll keep you posted.

[storm57]

You Might also want to check your torque tube gear mesh clearances. Incorrect gear mesh clearance transmits a lot of vibration known as binding. Notice how the boom slides in freely and locks in a slot alongside. You might want to back this one about a thousandth of an inch depending on your choice. Grease them up generously with Teflon after.

[Laurens]

LAURENS TO THE RESCUE!

No serious, we're going to solve this little mystery.

Tjerk has a sportversion, so beltdriven. I think its in both the electronical and mechanical setup.

See you in 1.5 weeks. I also have some time off next 2 weeks so if you can't wait we can already start wrenching on this thing!

[Dré]

Any update on this issue?

I like to know what it whas!!!



Greets


Dré

[fern]

any news?

I'm also having same vibration problem on sport, vertical fin oscilating so terrible that almost touch tail blades:oops:.
never crashed, don't dare do more then hover.

already done:
- realign frames & bearings blocks
- replaced fan by align metal
- replaced tail greaps by kassama (kill vertical oscilation)
- replaced tail blades by align carbon
- replaced tail drive assy (the platic gear looks oval on original)

next try:
- replace main blades
- play with engine tune (although sounds ok now)

until now I only had bad weekends since octuber... hope it realy fly as good as some lucky ones have reported...