Auto Rotations

[burke.bill]

Does anyone find that the auto rotations on reflex suck? I have done three true autos while buddy boxed with Todd Bennett and I might ad with no help from Todd. I was impressed with how easy it was. But with Reflex the blades stall way to easy. I have Real Flight G3.5 and think that the auto rotations are way too easy. The blades go forever just not real as far as I can tell. Reflex is closer to real flying but I must say Real Flight is catching up. I also check every day for any new planes or Helicopter posted on RC-Sim and nothing I still think Reflex is dead. I now can find many new planes and Helicopters on Knife edge for Real Flight but nothing new for Reflex.

[Gary JP4]

Hi burke.bill,

In Reflex it depends on the settings in the model physical parameters under the model menu or F11 and mostly the settings under the main rotor sub heading. Things like head speed, rotor inertia, pitch angle, etc.

My Reflex Trex model was like you said about G3.5. It would float for ever. I turned the "rotor moment of inertia" down to .01 (I think it was originally .6 or something). It is pretty realistic now. I have the 325 Pro woods so I don't have much energy in the rotor. I think I am pretty close. I only pull it off about 75% of the time.

[theglennster]

I totally agree there are some models that are nothing like the real thing the stock models always seem a bit floaty and some home made models need a lot of tweeking to get right. There is a T-Rex 450 model that would hang for ages in the air the blades would spin forever you try that on your T-Rex and you are in for a BIG shock :shock:

The only problem is if you are a newbie you are not going to know until you have to do it for real. I suppose start off like Gary says and get used to little inertia and start from there.

Only big birds hold onto their headspeed the smaller stuff especially with woodies drop like a stone you are only flaring it out in the last 4-5 ft.

Cheers
Glenn

[burke.bill]

You are right Gary I played with the setting you told me about and now it's right. Thanks so much for the info that worked... Bill

[Gary JP4]

Glad that helps. I have mine to where I crash, land hard, or tip over quite a bit. I guess that is realistic. :roll: Actual I have done a few autos and I think it is pretty close.

[questerng]

Hi all,

I'm from singapore,

Can anybody direct me what i have to do or change to the setting to practice auto..

have not done it before and really want to learn this..

thanks
quest

[Gary JP4]

Are you talking about the basic set up to have throttle hold or this energy thing that makes some models float too much?

There are two ways to set up a radio in Reflex XTR. You can be set up in governor mode, with airplane like settings where the collective stick just does collective and the throttle is governed, In this case you have the switch you are going to use for throttle hold identified and controlling a channel for reflex to use to activate throttle hold. I have a DX6 set up this way because it is too hard for me to program.

or

you can set up where the throttle and collective is mixed like the real heli except you don't have swash mixing. In this case you set up the throttle hold like the real one so it cuts the throttle to idle (nitro) or off for (electric). I have a JR 6102 set up like this.

How are you set up?

[questerng]

Hi,

I'm using a JR 9X2 tx...

I have my throttle hold stick on the left upper stick.. (i think this is the default stick)

May i ask do I need to do setting to my TX..

Or I only need to do setting on the sim.. where and what to set..

My situation is that when I hit the throttle hold stick the heli just float up and when i put in negative pitch to pull it down, it come down farely slow.(almost like there's no negative pitch) when I'm about to reach the ground and try to pump positive pitch to flare it.. it doesn't.. and just crash... I even try at very low level.. still doesn't work..

hope someone can help me to set it up..

Thanks...
quester

[Gary JP4]

Questerng,

Do you have it set up and flying OK other then using throttle hold.

[questerng]

Questerng,

Do you have it set up and flying OK other then using throttle hold.

Hi Gary JP4,

Yes I've been flying this sim for awhile already.. everything seems ok..(or is there something that i forgot to set)

thanks
quester

[Gary JP4]

Hi questerng,

Sorry I haven't had a chance to check my TX and sim set up. When I get to it I will tell you how mine is set. In the meantime check F8 and see what the Sim sees when you hit throttle hold. It will show you what each channel is doing when you move sticks and switch switches, etc. You may figure it out from that.

There are two ways to set up (see post #7 in this thread)

If you are using the TX to do the throttle / collective mixing like in the real heli make sure you don't have governor set in the model and click the box for TX doing the mixing. I will verify the fine points of this when I am at the SIM.

[questerng]

Hi questerng,

Sorry I haven't had a chance to check my TX and sim set up. When I get to it I will tell you how mine is set. In the meantime check F8 and see what the Sim sees when you hit throttle hold. It will show you what each channel is doing when you move sticks and switch switches, etc. You may figure it out from that.

There are two ways to set up (see post #7 in this thread)

If you are using the TX to do the throttle / collective mixing like in the real heli make sure you don't have governor set in the model and click the box for TX doing the mixing. I will verify the fine points of this when I am at the SIM.

Hi Gary JP4,

thanks bro, I'll try again tonight..

since I'm at it.. do you happen to know how to set so that my punch-up looks more like one.. at this point in time my heli punch-up doesn't feel like it.. it just look like it's going up that's all..

I tried increasing the pitch.. seems to help a bit but still doesn't feel right...

and also when i do flip elevater moves slow.. how to speed up all this respond..

hope to set the sim up to as close to my Trex 600..

thanks for all the help..

cheers
quester

[Gary JP4]

You could go into F5 and play with lift performance. This is also where you set weather you have the tail active in auto rotations, RPM controlled by a governor (on the sim), and whether you are mixing pitch and throttle in the TX or the sim is going to do it for you.

You could also go into F11 under General Data and play with model weight, and under Drive and play with engine power and RPM and maybe under Main Rotor and try changing Rotor RPM.

How are you set up? Do you have the sim mixing pitch and throttle or are you doing it with the TX?

[questerng]

You could go into F5 and play with lift performance. This is also where you set weather you have the tail active in auto rotations, RPM controlled by a governor (on the sim), and whether you are mixing pitch and throttle in the TX or the sim is going to do it for you.

You could also go into F11 under General Data and play with model weight, and under Drive and play with engine power and RPM and maybe under Main Rotor and try changing Rotor RPM.

How are you set up? Do you have the sim mixing pitch and throttle or are you doing it with the TX?

hi gary jp4,

I'm using the sim mixing pitch and throttle..

[Gary JP4]

It that case I believe you need the switch your are going to use for auto-rotations set up in your TX to a separate channel like gear. You don't want it reducing throttle to 0 like on the real heli. The sim will do it for you by sensing this separate channel. The sim is doing the throttle / collective mix for you. You need to identify that channel in the sim as the auto-ration channel in the radio menu. It will probably do it for you automatically if you go into the channel mapping window. It will ask you to move each control and identify the channel and direction including the one for auto-rotation or you can do it manually.

I am going off memory and will be more specific when I can get to the SIM.



Note: Just to be clear, there two ways to set up.

The way we are discussing to set up here the sim does all the mixing. The TX is set up basically like it would be for an airplane. The box in F5 for TX doing the mixing is not checked and the governor box should be checked. You need 4 chanels for flight controls and one for autorotation.

You can also set up the TX to do the mixing then it works just like the real Trex. Then you still need 5 chanels but they are throttle, collective, pitch (elevator), roll (aileron), and yaw (rudder). I have a 6102 set up that way but use the DX6 like you are because I don't know how to program the DX6 very well and I don't feel like looking up codes for switches, etc. In the 6102 they are named in the menus, etc. As a result the idle up switch doesn't work on the DX6 either. The sim is always in idle up. With the 6102 I can spool up in normal and switch to idle up, and the throttle hold switch just cuts throttle to 0 and the left stick still controls collective. If you set up this way you would click the box for TX doing the mixing. You would also have some remapping and of course the TX would have to be reprogrammed.

[questerng]

Hi Gary JP4,

Thanks for the detail explaination.. now I understand this sim alot better..

my JR 9X2 is the same as your 6102 set up..

I was checking the channel assignment and realise when i hit throtle hold it only cut power and the pitch is till working.. now I think the problem is the left over power is not enough to do auto rotate... power left over will last not more than 10 sec. and as the heli come close to ground there is not enought power to flare..
do you know where i can adjust this.. to increase the left over power...

once again thanks for the patient..

cheers
quester



It that case I believe you need the switch your are going to use for auto-rotations set up in your TX to a separate channel like gear. You don't want it reducing throttle to 0 like on the real heli. The sim will do it for you by sensing this separate channel. The sim is doing the throttle / collective mix for you. You need to identify that channel in the sim as the auto-ration channel in the radio menu. It will probably do it for you automatically if you go into the channel mapping window. It will ask you to move each control and identify the channel and direction including the one for auto-rotation or you can do it manually.

I am going off memory and will be more specific when I can get to the SIM.



Note: Just to be clear, there two ways to set up.

The way we are discussing to set up here the sim does all the mixing. The TX is set up basically like it would be for an airplane. The box in F5 for TX doing the mixing is not checked and the governor box should be checked. You need 4 chanels for flight controls and one for autorotation.

You can also set up the TX to do the mixing then it works just like the real Trex. Then you still need 5 chanels but they are throttle, collective, pitch (elevator), roll (aileron), and yaw (rudder). I have a 6102 set up that way but use the DX6 like you are because I don't know how to program the DX6 very well and I don't feel like looking up codes for switches, etc. In the 6102 they are named in the menus, etc. As a result the idle up switch doesn't work on the DX6 either. The sim is always in idle up. With the 6102 I can spool up in normal and switch to idle up, and the throttle hold switch just cuts throttle to 0 and the left stick still controls collective. If you set up this way you would click the box for TX doing the mixing. You would also have some remapping and of course the TX would have to be reprogrammed.

[Gary JP4]

To answer your question - the only parameter I have messed with relating to the amount of energy during an auto-rotation was "rotor moment of inertia" in the F11 menu under main rotor. It was set to .6 and I reduced it to .01.

I think we should go a little deeper through. Let me tell you how mine handles so you can sync up and get an idea how yours is doing.

My problem, and I bet yours too, was that it had to much energy and could hover for 30 seconds or so after I got to the ground. The way I have it set now is pretty realistic if I auto from altitude of say 50 feet I can flair and stop forward motion (sometimes) and can't hold it off the ground for more then a split second. If I flair and don't try to stop forward motion and let it land like an airplane I have a little more energy just like the real one. I think that is pretty realistic.

However, if I spool up on the ground and hit the hold switch on the ground I can still hop up 20 feet or so (and then crash with no energy left) and that it is a little unrealistic. Or, if I hover at a couple feet and hit the throttle, or hit throttle hold on the ground and hop up to a couple of feet, it has a little more energy then it should and I can hold it off the ground level for about 3 seconds. That is not far off from reality. If I hit throttle hold from a couple of feet with my Trex in real life I can control the descent and land but not hold it level for 3 seconds. But, again coming from altitude it feels about right. I don't have much remaining when I get to the ground, if I try to stop forward motion, and I crash a fair percentage of the time if I haven't been doing it for awhile. I have a dent in my boom and a nick in a 325 Pro wood right now form a blade strike from doing that.

Ok now. Back to you. You said throttle hold is shutting the throttle off but you still have pitch. That is not what you thought earlier. If you are going to go that way you don't want the sim mixing pitch and power. In the F5 box "Model Parameters Helicopter" uncheck the box "RPM controlling (governor)" and make sure the box is checked for Transmitter mixing pitch -> throttle. Also check the box for tail rotor active on auto-rotation.

Then you can play around with the F11 parameters to set inertia.

Keep in mind that during an auto-rotation from any altitude more then a few feet you need to immediately go to partial down collective to get somewhere around -3 degrees to keep the rotor spinning or you won't have enough energy when you get close to the ground. It also helps to have some forward speed with a slight pitch nose down in the decent.

You can go in under the simulation menu, model parameters, or F6 and click a box called data display. If you do this and also under Simulation, Display Mode during Simulation, and pick (check) window you will get a bar with data like head speed, blade pitch, altitude, etc. The bar wont show until you start simulation, F4. This is useful for setting things up.


Also, note that you can save and recover models with their parameters under the model menu, and separately save and read radio channel assignments under the radio menu.


Here are my channel assignments under the Radio menu, Assign Channels, or F7.

Tail Rotor - 4
Elevator - 3
Aileron - 2
Pitch - 6
Autorotation - Blank
Gyro Sensibility - 5

Airplane stuff doesn't matter unless you are flying airplanes

General:

Throttle - 1
Landing Gear - 5

Here are my radio setings for the JR 6102:

I set up another model for the sim and gave it a name.
Model type Helicoptor
Trainer - Normal
Switch Sel - Gear Aile D/R; FL-M Left SW
Swash Type - Normal, 1 servo

Servo Reversing - I have all servos normal except Ail & Rud which are reversed
Sub Trim - All 0
Travel Adjustment all 100% except Gear + 87% and - 87%
Throttle Cut I have to -112 (I don't know if it needs to be that far, I think I did it when I had the same problem as you.

Throttle Normal = 0, 49, 78, 90, 100
Throttle Stunt = 100, 100, 100, 100, 100
Pitch Normal = 34, 44, 50, 75, 100
Pitch Stunt = 0, 25, 50, 75, 100
Pitch Hold = 0, 25, 50, 75, 100

Revo and all mixes 0

Hope that helps.:cheers

[questerng]

hi gary JP4,
thanks.. You've been a great help.. I'll go home and try again..To answer your question - the only parameter I have messed with relating to the amount of energy during an auto-rotation was "rotor moment of inertia" in the F11 menu under main rotor. It was set to .6 and I reduced it to .01.

I think we should go a little deeper through. Let me tell you how mine handles so you can sync up and get an idea how yours is doing.

My problem, and I bet yours too, was that it had to much energy and could hover for 30 seconds or so after I got to the ground. The way I have it set now is pretty realistic if I auto from altitude of say 50 feet I can flair and stop forward motion (sometimes) and can't hold it off the ground for more then a split second. If I flair and don't try to stop forward motion and let it land like an airplane I have a little more energy just like the real one. I think that is pretty realistic.

However, if I spool up on the ground and hit the hold switch on the ground I can still hop up 20 feet or so (and then crash with no energy left) and that it is a little unrealistic. Or, if I hover at a couple feet and hit the throttle, or hit throttle hold on the ground and hop up to a couple of feet, it has a little more energy then it should and I can hold it off the ground level for about 3 seconds. That is not far off from reality. If I hit throttle hold from a couple of feet with my Trex in real life I can control the descent and land but not hold it level for 3 seconds. But, again coming from altitude it feels about right. I don't have much remaining when I get to the ground, if I try to stop forward motion, and I crash a fair percentage of the time if I haven't been doing it for awhile. I have a dent in my boom and a nick in a 325 Pro wood right now form a blade strike from doing that.

Ok now. Back to you. You said throttle hold is shutting the throttle off but you still have pitch. That is not what you thought earlier. If you are going to go that way you don't want the sim mixing pitch and power. In the F5 box "Model Parameters Helicopter" uncheck the box "RPM controlling (governor)" and make sure the box is checked for Transmitter mixing pitch -> throttle. Also check the box for tail rotor active on auto-rotation.

Then you can play around with the F11 parameters to set inertia.

Keep in mind that during an auto-rotation from any altitude more then a few feet you need to immediately go to partial down collective to get somewhere around -3 degrees to keep the rotor spinning or you won't have enough energy when you get close to the ground. It also helps to have some forward speed with a slight pitch nose down in the decent.

You can go in under the simulation menu, model parameters, or F6 and click a box called data display. If you do this and also under Simulation, Display Mode during Simulation, and pick (check) window you will get a bar with data like head speed, blade pitch, altitude, etc. The bar wont show until you start simulation, F4. This is useful for setting things up.


Also, note that you can save and recover models with their parameters under the model menu, and separately save and read radio channel assignments under the radio menu.


Here are my channel assignments under the Radio menu, Assign Channels, or F7.

Tail Rotor - 4
Elevator - 3
Aileron - 2
Pitch - 6
Autorotation - Blank
Gyro Sensibility - 5

Airplane stuff doesn't matter unless you are flying airplanes

General:

Throttle - 1
Landing Gear - 5

Here are my radio setings for the JR 6102:

I set up another model for the sim and gave it a name.
Model type Helicoptor
Trainer - Normal
Switch Sel - Gear Aile D/R; FL-M Left SW
Swash Type - Normal, 1 servo

Servo Reversing - I have all servos normal except Ail & Rud which are reversed
Sub Trim - All 0
Travel Adjustment all 100% except Gear + 87% and - 87%
Throttle Cut I have to -112 (I don't know if it needs to be that far, I think I did it when I had the same problem as you.

Throttle Normal = 0, 49, 78, 90, 100
Throttle Stunt = 100, 100, 100, 100, 100
Pitch Normal = 34, 44, 50, 75, 100
Pitch Stunt = 0, 25, 50, 75, 100
Pitch Hold = 0, 25, 50, 75, 100

Revo and all mixes 0

Hope that helps.:cheers

[questerng]

Hi Gary,

thanks for all your detail help.. It made me understand this sim alot better..

Now the sim seems to be what everyone say about being one of the best sim..

Once again thanks a million...

cheers
quester

[Gary JP4]

What did it? What made the difference? I don't know if you had the same model as I did. Did you end up with the same rotor inertia setting as I did?

[questerng]

Hi gary JP4,

yes, when i check rotor inertia.. it was at 0.06... then i tried lowering it to 0.01 and found that it was too fast.. almost losing power too much..( prob I try messing too much stuff and forgot what i change) then i brought it up to 0.03.. that made it feel more realistic( at lease to me.. not that i've tried it before.. saw other people doing it)..

I also notice if you fly diff model in the sim they all set differently.. doesn't mean 0.01 or 0.03 work for all model.. like I tried fliping to inverted..some model flip fast and some flip slow..I suppost this is the default setting that came with the model (as how they felt this model is on the real thing)..

cheers
quest

What did it? What made the difference? I don't know if you had the same model as I did. Did you end up with the same rotor inertia setting as I did?

[Gary JP4]

Right, they are mostly home made in the field and vary with the designers skills and whims. I wondered if you had the same model. I think mine is a derivative of one from Trex tuning that came through Finless and he mod-ed it a little to tone it down from being too twitchy. I also have the Trex Tuning one and that is how I know.