I need MORE power!

[furyphoto]

It was bound to eventually happen, now that I have my camera rig all put together it feels weak trying to fly with all the weight.

Here's the set up:

- Swift
- Z-Power Z30A-800
- Phoenix 45HV ESC
- 7s Emolis
- 550 Symetrical blades (wooden)
- Askman 360 pan mount
- Canon A640 with .7 wide lens
- Ready to shoot AUW - 4684 grams or 10.33 pounds
- Usable flight time at this weight is about 4.5 min

This set up struggles to get into the air, and sounds like it is bogging quite a bit when I climb out, and especially when it is trying to escape ground effect. Almost to the point where it feels like it is not going to fly. Surprisingly is seems to behave better once it is up in the air a bit. The only weight I could strip would be the canopy(110g) and the noodles (50g), everything else I need to shoot, it is already as bare bones as I can make it. (Why do we all use noodles anyway? )

I am running 9 tooth pinion, and recorded headspeeds from previous flights that averaged about 1400rpm during flight. I don't have any headspeed measurements with the askman mount because I couldn't wire the sensor that needed to be on the heli to the black box that needed to be on the 360 mount, so I just took it off. I will hook it up, and try some rpm tests tomorrow.

I am calling on those of you with more experience to guide me ;) , I can offer professional photography advice in exchange! My questions are these...

What's the best way to give this set up more ummph?

Should I change the pinion, and increase the headspeed?

Do I need more powerful batteries? If so what? (a little longer flight times would be appreciated!)

Should I use different blades? will the difference be significant?

Is this a good Motor/ESC combo? (I think it should be because I asked a lot of questions before I bought them.)

It's great to finally be shooting some photos, now I just need to get the system dialed so I can fly with confidence in front of clients! (and their kids on 2 shoots so far! "Honey, do you want to go see the helicopter?")

Recent shot attached! I remember someone here asking to see some shots with mountains at some point. (pilot left in for posterity!)

This is the front and back of the same house, it can be yours for only $825000 cad! (thats' $865233 US!)

Thanks for you help in advance.

[Ruud Westerhout]

I would be very eager to help You with your question, but I lack the know-how.

In my search for power I was told that it was always better to have full-throttle with smaller pinion then say 80% on a bigger pinion. As I am flying a TRex 450 my situation can absolutely not be compared. Let the rest of ideas come from pro's :)

But I can say I really like the pictures, very neat !!

Regards,
Ruud

[SeismicCWave]

What kind of temperature are you getting on your motor and battery pack. I suspect your head speed is way too low for a 550 mm blades lifting 10 pounds. I am spinning 1400 to 1500 rpm on a Trex 600 with 600 mm blades and carrying the same payload as you. I can get around 8 minutes from a 6S 5000 mah Thunder Power Extreme.

I am not familiar with the motor you are using. I am flying a Tango 45-08 in the Trex and I have no power problem. Just for fun I actually hauled my Canon 350 XT Rebel in the air with the Trex with no problem.

So how big is this motor you have? What is the kV rating?

I am not familiar with the battery pack you are using also. However I found that a battery pack can make all the difference in the world. So far the best energy density comes from Thunder Power. That is they are the lightest cells with the lowest resistance and the highest capacity.

Also 45 amp speed controller sounds very marginal for your application. I am using a Kontronik 60A on my Trex.

So there may not be one thing wrong with your setup. If every one of your components are marginal it will add up to a rig struggling to lift off.

[Wbird]

(Why do we all use noodles anyway? )[/QUOTE]

I can't help you with your power issue as I am not very familiar with Swift but I have had the same question with reguard to the noodles. I have never used them myself. Tried a couple of times but they got in the way so I just made skids from PVC pipe and used pieces of Heater hose in place of skid nuts to keep it from sliding around on slippery surfaces.

IMHO I would bring the headspeed up a little closer to the 2000 rpm mark. I run just over 2000 rpm on my T-Rex's for AP. 2 lbs of camer and mount are noticeable but a non issue for flight.

Another option is a light weight mount. The one pictured below isn't even heavy enought to notice with normal flight on my 600 (never did weigh it). I still do loops & rolls, Inverted hovering and mild 3D with this on my heli. My other mount is heavier with the A640 camera and it aprox 2 lbs. I can give more details of the mount shown below if interested. email: whirlybird@sasktel.net

[SeismicCWave]

>> I have had the same question with reguard to the noodles.<<

They are great for old tired eyes. In AP you don't get to dictate the position of your helicopter because of the lighting and the environment. When a helicopter is in a high hover with the light source slightly behind those noodles with different colors become a life saver for orientation.

[furyphoto]

I figured as much as "high vis" for the noodles, I just wondered if they served any other purpose on the landing gear, because that's usually where they are found. I am considering some differing visibility mods, because when the 360 mount turns, so do the noodles (thank you AP2000i for preventing unexpected 3D at 300ft, when the camera man spins the mount, and I lose orientation!)

As for the motor, the Z30A-800 is an 800kv motor, and is supposed to be very efficient, and powerful (high torque)

I am working on some power test videos I shot today, that show the head speed. Bogging is definitely a problem. The 0 pitch RPM is about 1700, but it bogs to as low as 1200 at the beginning of the battery when trying to get airborne. Oddly, about 1 minute into flight it seems to speed up on it's own, like the heli gods flipped some magic idle-up switch. After that it flies much better, but still bogs on climbout (fairly slow climb, not jamming the collective), and hovers at about 1400-1500 rpm compared to the 1700 at zero pitch.

I am feeling quite certain that the culprit is the batteries (7s Emolis from a Milwaukee Drill pack). Could it be the pulling too many amps for the ESC? I think it is supposed to shut down if that happens. maybe it's a combination of both. I think a bigger pinion wouldn't hurt either.

I would like to feel a bit more confident that the batteries are causing the trouble before I go and drop $1K on Li-po's and a charger!

Anyway, videos coming soon.

[bullaculla]

I figured as much as "high vis" for the noodles, I just wondered if they served any other purpose on the landing gear, because that's usually where they are found. I am considering some differing visibility mods, because when the 360 mount turns, so do the noodles (thank you AP2000i for preventing unexpected 3D at 300ft, when the camera man spins the mount, and I lose orientation!)

Thats why I did this:
http://photos.imageevent.com/bullaculla1/heli/websize/IMG_4551.JPG
The bright noodle stays stationary with the heli, and the pan LG has dark pipe insulation that I can ignore.



Could it be the pulling too many amps for the ESC? I think it is supposed to shut down if that happens. maybe it's a combination of both. I think a bigger pinion wouldn't hurt either.

Actually, if you go with a bigger pinion, you will pull more amps. The motor will have to work harder to turn the main gear, but you will get more HS.
Higher voltage= less amps to get the same amount of watts.

I went to great lenghts to save weight where ever I can on my trex600. My ready to fly weight is just under 13lbs, and i'm using 10s lipos flying a DSLR. I actually have more than enough power :YeaBaby:
The mount is drilled out anywhere possible, All the excess threads on the screws are cut off (except 2 threads for safety) and I used aluminum screws wherever they are not too stressed. The lipos for the camera and downlink system are tiny, and i switched to lighter plugs. I recently ordered a new ugraded swash and washout base cause its a few grams lighter. I also cut down my Lipos main power leads as short as possible to save weight (quite a few grams actually) and get better current flow. I know they are extremely tiny differences, but every little bit helps.
So like others said, save weight wherever you can. and Higher voltages=more power and cooler running with better duration.
Hope this helps.
:cool:

http://photos.imageevent.com/bullaculla1/heli/websize/IMG_0033.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/bullaculla1/heli/IMG_8620%20copy.jpg

[SeismicCWave]

>>As for the motor, the Z30A-800 is an 800kv motor, and is supposed to be very efficient, and powerful (high torque)<<

OK so for the moment let's assume your motor is powerful enough. 800 kV is a bit low so you will need to up the pinion or go to more cells in series to get the head speed.

If you need more help can you post a link where I can see what motor is that? I don't mind learning either.

>>I am feeling quite certain that the culprit is the batteries (7s Emolis from a Milwaukee Drill pack). Could it be the pulling too many amps for the ESC? I think it is supposed to shut down if that happens. maybe it's a combination of both. I think a bigger pinion wouldn't hurt either.<<

If you feel that the culprit is your batteries then most likely your culprit is your batteries. Now I am not familiar with the batteries that you are using. Are you talking about some lithium Ion battery packs from a power hand tool? Are they similar to the A123 battery system from the Dewalt power tools? These are only 3.6 Volt nominal versus 3.7 Volts for the lipoly cells. So your 7S is only marginally higher in voltage than an equivalent 6S Thunder Power Lipoly pack.

Your culprit really is in the low voltage of your battery pack plus high resistance of your battery pack. Thunder Power claims 30C discharge rate. So a 5000 mah pack may be discharged to 150 amp. We never will use 150 amp unless we shorted out something but what that meant was that the resistance of the lipoly pack is lower than your battery pack.

Going to a larger pinion is not an option if you don't change the battery pack. A larger pinion will draw more current for the same rotor head speed. So your system will bog down even more.

You other culprit is in your ESC. A Castle Phoenix 45 is not enough for your Swift setup as stated. Please change that before you crash because of a thermal shut down. The wire size in the ESC is also very inadequate to carry the current of your setup.

I am also assuming that you are NOT using the BEC on the speed controller.

[bullaculla]

OK so for the moment let's assume your motor is powerful enough. 800 kV is a bit low so you will need to up the pinion or go to more cells in series to get the head speed.

If you need more help can you post a link where I can see what motor is that? I don't mind learning either.


Here is the motor he is using.
http://www.tppacks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=aaZ%2DPower%2DZ30A%2D800
And I do agree that he is not running enough voltage to turn this motor properly.
The site even states that you should be on 8s lipos or 10s A123.

[SeismicCWave]

>>Here is the motor he is using.
http://www.tppacks.com/proddetail.as...r%2DZ30A%2D800<<

Thanks for the link. I just looked at my Trex 600 and I am flying it on 6S powering a Tango 45-10 not the 45-8. The motor has a kV rating of 1060 RPM. I think you are flying yours on 10S so we have quite a bit more head speed to lift the load.

>>The site even states that you should be on 8s lipos or 10s A123.<<

I believe that will be the cure. Definitely a higher amperage speed controller also.

[j_kookboy]

I ran the same setup as you last year on my Swift for the exception of the motor. I was using a Tango 45-08 /800kv. The Tango is more efficient than the Zpower but not by leaps and bounds.

I ran mine on 10S. 6-7S was just too low voltage. It was bogging no matter which pinion I used.

Here was my setup:

Swift stock
Tango 45-08
CC45HV (HD dialed down)
10T pinion
10S1P A123's
550 semi-sym Funkey's
Askman 360 pan mount
Canon A640 with .7 wide lens

Flight times we're around 8-9 min mark with plenty of power right until the pack dropped. I flew for about 6 mins just make certain I had some reserve time for emergencies.

Nice to see others around the area. I normally shoot in whistler/lower mainland.

Trade the holymoli's for A123's and up the cell count to 10 / pinion to 9 or 10 and set gov on the CC around 1950 HS.

Jesse

[dreslism]

You other culprit is in your ESC. A Castle Phoenix 45 is not enough for your Swift setup as stated. Please change that before you crash because of a thermal shut down. The wire size in the ESC is also very inadequate to carry the current of your setup.

I am also assuming that you are NOT using the BEC on the speed controller.

He said he is using a "Phoenix 45HV ESC"

The HV is enough for his setup, and it has NO BEC on it since it is the HV version.

Andrew, you're running in governor mode?

Make sure your esc is setup correctly for governor mode. There are videos here on HF on how to set them up correctly. Calibrate the throttle and all in fixed mode.. etc...

Don't bother doing that until you get a better battery setup.

I agree you should be flying that thing at a constant 1800+ish for that size and weight.

[SeismicCWave]

>>He said he is using a "Phoenix 45HV ESC"<<

My bad.

[furyphoto]

As has been said many times before, thanks to everyone on this forum for the constructive help.

Here is the video of the headspeed test flights. The first flight is with the fresh, battery. as you can see it bogs heavily, and can barely get off the ground. The whold timne it is struggling, I have to keep increasing collective to stop it from coming down. I even get a low power wobble, which looks like it is struggling to stay in the air.

It seems as the battery warms up, that the performance gets better. The second flight is only a minute or two after the first, and on the same half used battery. The head speed does better, and the heli will climb without a ridiculous amount of bogging.

stKx9qTGL8I

If I didn't know anything about helis, or batteries, I would say just from the sound that it seem like the batteries are not powerful enough for the load.

Everyone who thinks some 10s A123's, and the correct pinion/governor set up would solve the problem say "I"! My cursor is tickling the Dewalt "Buy It Now" as we speak!

I am thinking a couple of 10s A123's and the Dewalt charger ($30) until I try them out. If I am satisfied, I will decide on a better charging solution (suggestions welcome) and maybe get an 8s lipo to compare as well (I have heard good things about Maxamps).

Sound like a plan?

[bullaculla]

I dont know how many mAh you need, but 4s packs are kinda cheap.
evo20 3300 4s lipos are only $101 each.
http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5095
just get 2 and hook them up in series so you have more mounting options.
better than a long 8s pack.

Edit:
I jsut watched the video and the RPM went from 1700 on the ground and then dropped to 1300 as soon as you took off. thats pretty bad bogging. Its really hard on the ESC.
What telemetry device is that on your display?
Act labs black box?

[furyphoto]

Got the auction sniper on a few Dewalt 36v a123 packs, I want them on their way by the end of Friday.

That is the display of the Act Labs Black Box I use it mostly for altitude, I cant turn the mount 360 with the rpm sensor hooked up. I am pretty happy with it for 99 bucks.

I use a mp4 video recorder for my downlink screen, and to record the photography sessions, that way, if I need to , I can check the altitude of any given frame from the shoot. I can also position the heli at (approximately) the right altitude for virtual balcony views.

Anybody wanna buy some emolis? ;)

[drewjet]

You could try upping the cell count and lowering the pinion size to stick with the emolis. I have found they do the exact same thing if you push them the loose voltage, then if you let them rest a short time, the come back stronger. I think you are going to need a lower pinion anyways even if switching to A123 10 cell.

[j_kookboy]

Andrew, PM sent.

[j_kookboy]

Andrew here's my 10S A123 pack charging setup :

(from ebay. search for "400W 11A 36V" 400W, 36V @ 11A CCCV Charger specifically for A123 10S1P packs.

PS/Charger, E-flight power meter, cables/connectors

Short cable from charger/PS -> Power meter -> Long cable -> A123

Fully depleted to fully charged in just over 10 mins.

The balancing taps are not mandatory. I have 4 packs with over 300 charges each without taps and they are still going strong. Very durable packs.

*Just make sure if you're not going with balacing taps, to keep all the cells (10) together from each dewalt pack. You don't want to mix and match cells from one dewalt pack with another.

http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/7876/dscn2945lu7.jpg

[furyphoto]

Thanks to everyone for your advice, and to Jesse for the long Q&A period on the phone today.

I have exercised my right to "Buy it Now" and had better get some jobs to pay for everything!

Stuff on the way (including shipping) ...

- The 400w 36v 11A Power Supply to use for direct charging - $71
- "Watt's Up" RC Watt Meter & Power Analyzer WU100 - $60
- 4 x Dewalt New in Package 36v 10s battery pack - $427
- 10 Sets of Deans Ultra to put everything together - $10
- Digital countdown timer to time charging, and as a back up for my cameraman to watch flight times - $5

Grand total - $573 USD (or $535 Canadian - Whoo Hoo!!)

Being able to charge, fly and shoot all day... It's too cheesy, I can't say it..... OK I can... Priceless!

I will probably pick up a balancer, and there is a good chance that I see a TP 1010 charger in my future too, after the bank account recovers a bit. All in all not a bad hit if it solves my problem.

Thanks again for everyone's input, I will let you know how it goes.

-A

[aramsdell]

Ditch the A123's.

I fly my Swift with homemade mount just fine on the Century 600+ motor. Tons of power. You need a reasonable battery setup and a decent ESC that won't overheat. I've been flying mine on an 8t aftermarket Century pinion but they are splitting so I don't recommend them. On the 8 t my 7 to 7.5 lb Swift and A640 flies nicely on 5S 5000 and 6S4000 with 550mm Rotortech blades.
I'm going to start with the 9T pinion again. I may dial the throttle back just a hair when using the 6S setup.
My other Swift is fully blinged and also on 550 RT's. It is a joy on the 5S pack with a 9T pinion. It is an animal on the 6S pack.
The previous just for some of my experience with Swifts.
My cam ship also has my own constant driven tail mod.
Get a better ESC with an adjustable cutoff. Get a decent battery or 2 and a decent charger.
I just started using one called Kongpower.5S 5000 25C and it's a super low voltage capable( like Air Thunder).
Moral of story. Swift needs a diet.
your A640 can lose some weight. Get a small adjustable BEC like the new Castle Creations. Set it to 5.8v. use it to power the camera and ditch the 4 AA cells.
I got a bec from Blipit in Australia when I got my Blipswitch for the A640. It came with the correct jack to plug into the A640!




Diet. Sorry.

[j_kookboy]

Keep the A123's.

Simple reasons.

Charge a pack in 10mins
If you lawndart into concrete, it won't explode like lipo's and this is a large safety factor
Voltage is 99% across the range of the cells all the way until drop off

I agree. Swift/640 need diets. I did the same. Dimension eng adjustable voltage regulator and ditched the AA's. Swift I made a lot of mod cutting away at the stock frame.

It's all part of the learning process.

Everyone's needs and applications are different.

Something that works for one may not work as well for another. We all know that too well.

Jesse

[furyphoto]

It's too late for the A123's, I already have 4 packs on the way!

I switched to the bec for the 640 very first thing, on my mount, the camera, receiver, servos, Black Box, and downlink transmitter all run off one 3s 1200mah lipo. The camera, and rx receive power through a BEC, the blackbox has a regulator in it (that wasn't powerful enough for the camera) so it takes power straight from the lipo, and the video tx gets fed by the black box. It's all self contained on the camera mount so I can pan 360. Its a bit of a jungle of wires, but it works like a charm!

Maybe I could use a bit smaller lipo, but the camera seems to draw a lot of power shooting continuous, one frame every 3 sec. The lipo weighs in at 94 gm. The removed 4 AA's are 114 gm. It's a bit of a PITA to put the batteries in the camera to review the shots after a flight, but it is worth the weight loss.

By the way, industrial strength Velcro is the shiznit! It is all that holds my 3s lipo to the mount, and I almost need a second person to help me get it off! The shrink wrap would tear loose before the battery fell off!