Cellpro10s - first info

[kgfly]

Info kindly shared with me by Jamie Marks, VP and General Manager of FMAdirect:

Name: Cellpro10s

Type: Integrated LiXx balance charger

Special features:
The new charger will be a two channel charger with the ability to charge up to two 5S lipo packs simultaneously or up to one 10S lipo pack. The charge rate is 10amps. It is packed with features designed around the wildly popular Cellpro 4S with some additional features the market has yet to see. This Cellpro 10S is like no other charger available on the market.

Price:
Pricing is not set as of this date, but it will retail substantially less than the Thunder Power 1010 which uses an external balancer. The TP1010 with the balancer retails for around $250 and it does not give you the same precise balancing that FMA's chargers do.

Target release: 15 Jan 2008

[RCHeliJim]

Thats great news - I love the 4s charger, it works extremely well.

[Pinecone]

I guess they decided to skip the 6S version. :)

Although one would think in todays's market a 12S (two 6s at the same time) would be PERFECT.

I will get one.

[csell]

Hello.

I guess they decided to skip the 6S version. :)

I can't understand it eather.

Why had FMADirect choosed the dual 5s as the max cell number?

There is a market for a 8-10s lipo chargers, but this is a 440 Watt high power charger.
How many will need 440 Watt to charge 8-10s lipos and not wanting the possibilities
to charge at least 12s.

Peoble will want more than 10s and I can´t realy se peoble baying two 440 Watt chargers
to charge 11-15 cells packs.

What about a123 charging. Remember that 6s a123 voltage is 21.6 volt very close to the voltage of a 5s lipo.

If the 10s limit also apply for a123 packs will peoble baying this charger be limited to max 10s a123.
This will remove the great flexibility in adjusting the number of a123 cells in the packs. So not many
a123 users will bay this new charger eather.

I can just hope that this is the first of a series of new cargers from FMADirect. They have the 6s BalancePro and I was expecting the new just was a dual 6s BalacePro with the much needed display.

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

Good points. I don't know for sure. I believe that originally they were looking at an 8s solution and were convinced to upgrade to 10s to cover the 7s-10s A123 solutions that are used for models originally designed for 6s.

[Raydee]

I guess they want you to buy two chargers for 12s.....not a big deal if the price is right. I love my 4s chargers and have owned 6 of them so far. They are by far the easiest charger for 4s lipo on the market.

[ChasHeliCop]

Here's a possible explanation. I just recently charged 2x 6s packs on my charger. I took approx.93 minutes to charge to 100% because of the balancing factor. Typically my packs come in pretty close to the same voltage, 3.71, 3.72 or 3.73 v. The larger the differential the longer the charge time to balance. But, packs run together, to make 8s or 10s would theoretically be closer and easier to charge/balance. I find it is taking just about as long to charge the two packs separately as it is to charge together. But with 3s packs, it take the same amount of time to charge two as it does one.

[csell]

Hello.

I guess they want you to buy two chargers for 12s.....not a big deal if the price is right

May be not, but I don´t expect the price to be similar to a 6s charger. And the price of the charger itself is only a part of the price for a charger setup. Two 440 Watt chargers will requere some investment in new power suplies or deep-cycle batteries.

In FMADirect BalancePro manual on paper is this note:

Warning: Power Supply must provide at least 25A at 12v
( 300 Watts ). Failure to comply will void the charger warranty.

It don´t matter how small current you charge with, they requere you to use powersupply with min 25A.

I don´t know how they designed the new Cellpro10s, but if the same rule apply will it requere min 83 Amps
power supplies if you use 2 of the new chargers.

Or how to power them, if we bay two and want to use them to their max capacity?

Regards Carsten.

[th3tick]

I'm just glad to see them come up with something. I've been suspect of the TP-210V since I bought it, and am learning my suspicions may be true...

Meanwhile, the Cellpro 4s has worked great. I like the concept of balanced charging much over the balancer merely draining, and hoping that things don't get too much out of whack.

Please sign me up for two!

John

[drewjet]

From my conversation with FMA, I don't think you will still have 10 amps at 10 cell. I don't think it is 440 watts. I think you had 10 amps up to 6 cell, then it started cutting back on amps.

[Ace Dude]

It's highly doubtful that it's a 440W charger. A 440W charger would require over a 36A 12V DC power supply.

[kgfly]

It's highly doubtful that it's a 440W charger. A 440W charger would require over a 36A 12V DC power supply.
So ? The ham radio folk have much larger supplies than that. Hyperion are promoting the use of two "networked" EOS 0610iNET chargers which are 250W = 500W, although you can of course use two separate 300W supplies, one for each 0610. They have also mentioned their plan to bring out a DUO which is an integrated 12s 500W unit and a DC supply to match.

The demand for high power chargers is growing as LiFe technology and large capacity lipos penetrate further into the market.

I certainly look forward to seeing the final spec.s from FMAdirect whcih will clear up any ambiguity.

[Ace Dude]

So ? The ham radio folk have much larger supplies than that. Hyperion are promoting the use of two "networked" EOS 0610iNET chargers which are 250W = 500W, although you can of course use two separate 300W supplies, one for each 0610. They have also mentioned their plan to bring out a DUO which is an integrated 12s 500W unit and a DC supply to match.

The demand for high power chargers is growing as LiFe technology and large capacity lipos penetrate further into the market.

I certainly look forward to seeing the final spec.s from FMAdirect whcih will clear up any ambiguity.

I'm a ham and I have several large power supplies myself. Good quality high output power supplies aren't cheap. Most folks are going to complain about about the price of a power supply that size. Do you know if this new FMA charger will work off of a 24V or higher power supply?

[kgfly]

I'm a ham and I have several large power supplies myself. Good quality high output power supplies aren't cheap. Most folks are going to complain about about the price of a power supply that size.
Good point Ace.

Do you know if this new FMA charger will work off of a 24V or higher power supply?No additional information at this time, I think we will just have to wait until FMAdirect release the official specifications.

[Pinecone]

Don't have a big power supply? No problem, get a battery and a smaller power supply. Float the battery on the power supply. That way the battery handles any over amp demands, and as the current demend reduces, the battery gets charged back up. This is how my ham shack is set up, Astron 50 with 80 AH gel battery.

Another thing, in ham radio we tend to use linear power supplies with honking big transformers. These cost. But for RC use, a switching power supply can be used. A 500W switching power supply is not that expensive. Look at PC power supplies.

[kgfly]

Here is one I found after a quick search, it will do 12V @ 70A (840W) but it is about $250: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=405

I think with some hunting it should be possible to find a PC powersupply with >500W available on the +12V rail for under $200.

[Ace Dude]

Don't have a big power supply? No problem, get a battery and a smaller power supply. Float the battery on the power supply. That way the battery handles any over amp demands, and as the current demend reduces, the battery gets charged back up. This is how my ham shack is set up, Astron 50 with 80 AH gel battery.

Another thing, in ham radio we tend to use linear power supplies with honking big transformers. These cost. But for RC use, a switching power supply can be used. A 500W switching power supply is not that expensive. Look at PC power supplies.

What about portability? That's something I'd rather not have to lug to the field. I'd consider the ability to run a high power charger at the field a requirement.

[Ace Dude]

Here is one I found after a quick search, it will do 12V @ 70A (840W) but it is about $250: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=405

I think with some hunting it should be possible to find a PC powersupply with >500W available on the +12V rail for under $200.

When I think of high quality power supply a PC power supply doesn't come to mind. Their primary purpose is 5V. A purpose built 12V (13.8V) power supply is the only thing I'd consider. Of course, I'd go higher voltage if the charger supported a higher input voltage.

The new Hyperion EOS 0610i has an input voltage range of 11v-28v.

In the future we'll start to see more chargers with a higher input voltage (e.g., 28v).

[kgfly]

When I think of high quality power supply a PC power supply doesn't come to mind. Their primary purpose is 5V.
I think you might be a little out of touch, the 12V rails have become far more important in PCs than they used to be, hence why the unit I refered to is capable of 840W *on the 12V rail*. As to quality, well you are right that a $50 PC power-supply is not comparable to a $200 bench supply, but you cannot tar them all with the same brush and like all PC components, the huge volumes in which they are made make them much cheaper for a given specification than almost any other kind of product. The other thing is that these chargers do no necessarily need a "high quality" supply (as in low ripple, low noise, high regulation), just enough grunt to keep up. If by "high quality" you mean MTBF then the >100,000hrs claimed by the example I found ought to cover quite a few recharge cycles ;)

I notice the X3 comes in a 1600W unit capable of up to 117A on the 12V rail :shock: Perhaps more interesting is that their 600W unit provides 12V/36A (432W) for under $150.

[PaulH]

PC Power and Cooling is known for making high-capacity supplies.

12V @ 49A for $119 on sale.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703005


12V @ 60A for $169 on sale
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703009

[Ace Dude]

I think you might be a little out of touch, the 12V rails have become far more important in PCs than they used to be, hence why the unit I refered to is capable of 840W *on the 12V rail*. As to quality, well you are right that a $50 PC power-supply is not comparable to a $200 bench supply, but you cannot tar them all with the same brush and like all PC components, the huge volumes in which they are made make them much cheaper for a given specification than almost any other kind of product. The other thing is that these chargers do no necessarily need a "high quality" supply (as in low ripple, low noise, high regulation), just enough grunt to keep up. If by "high quality" you mean MTBF then the >100,000hrs claimed by the example I found ought to cover quite a few recharge cycles ;)

I notice the X3 comes in a 1600W unit capable of up to 117A on the 12V rail :shock: Perhaps more interesting is that their 600W unit provides 12V/36A (432W) for under $150.

Sorry, I'm afraid I'm not out of touch. How many Hams are powering their $10k radios using PC power supplies? Do you see PC power supplies in commercial radio equipment?

Most PC power supplies don't live up to the ratings on their label. You can believe whatever the label says if you'd like.

There also some note in the 0610i manual regarding using a high quality supply with a 15V or higher output when charging the high voltage stuff.

Bottom line is to use whatever power supply works for you.

[warpspeed]

Pricing is not set as of this date, but it will retail substantially less than the Thunder Power 1010 which uses an external balancer. The TP1010 with the balancer retails for around $250 and it does not give you the same precise balancing that FMA's chargers do.

I'm curious about this statement. Are the TP balancers inaccurate?

[Pinecone]

Sorry, I'm afraid I'm not out of touch. How many Hams are powering their $10k radios using PC power supplies? Do you see PC power supplies in commercial radio equipment?

Most PC power supplies don't live up to the ratings on their label. You can believe whatever the label says if you'd like.

There also some note in the 0610i manual regarding using a high quality supply with a 15V or higher output when charging the high voltage stuff.

Bottom line is to use whatever power supply works for you.

There is a bit of difference between running a transceiver and a charger. And a lot of ham equipment has gone to switching power supplies. My FT1000D uses one.

The better PC power supplies will do pretty much what they say they will do. Just like most higher quality equipment.

[kgfly]

Hey Ace,

Peace man! We are not talking about running $10k transceivers, but $200 battery chargers. You said that PC power supplies were mainly for 5V but due primarily to the demands of high end graphics cards the 12V rails now deliver a lot more power than the 5V. As for quality, well it's horses for courses. The electronics in a PC are very high tech. and sensitive to power issues. Really cheap PC power supplies have been known to have poor regulation, noisy outputs, low performance (below sticker specs) and short lifetimes. However there are plenty of reputable brands that perform well in all aspects. I don't claim to know their suitability for your $10k transceiver but I am confident that they will do the job for a battery charger.

Your point that high power chargers will start to be current-limited on their inputs and demand higher voltage supplies in order to deliver their full rated output is a good one and probably mitigates against using a PC supply for chargers rated over 200-250W output. Luckily switched-mode 15V/23A (345W) units can be found for USD$63 :)


Sorry, I'm afraid I'm not out of touch. How many Hams are powering their $10k radios using PC power supplies? Do you see PC power supplies in commercial radio equipment?

Most PC power supplies don't live up to the ratings on their label. You can believe whatever the label says if you'd like.

There also some note in the 0610i manual regarding using a high quality supply with a 15V or higher output when charging the high voltage stuff.

Bottom line is to use whatever power supply works for you.

[bullaculla]

I'm curious about this statement. Are the TP balancers inaccurate?

No, they are just external drain balancers. So while you are charging, they will bleed excess voltage from the high cell. If your pack is badly out of balance, it will take longer to charge since it is draining while charging. Also since it is just converting excess voltage to heat, there is a limit of how fast it can drain.
Others charge through the balance taps cell by cell at the same time.