First Nitro Raptor

[chuckjones]

Hey -

Not sure where to go next. I've been flying a TREX 450 since July. I've had a couple of SA's, and recently a V2. I'm flying nose in, aggressive figure 8's, loops, stall turns, and inverted on the simulator - haven't had the guts to wreck my V2 yet.

I want to make the leap into the larger nitro world, without spending $2K. I'm on a limited budget (otherwise divorced). The main motivation is size, and battery expense. I'm limited to 4 minute flights tops, with $90 batteries. It's hard to practice loops and going inverted when the safe flying distance makes orientation next to impossible... so here I am!

I was looking at a Raptor 30 in the LHS. I can get it (the V2 with the PRO30? model) for about $400. I'll need the basics, pump etc, and servos (have an AR7000) for the DX7. Throw in another 401, and I'm looking at about $700 total I think.

But to my surprise, it sounds like people dismiss the 30 as a beginner's tool.... ok... I don't want to be limited, so the next up would be the 50 Titan, and that too people think is limited from my readings - IE the wood blades and some sort of tail issues. OK, then the 50SEV2... that's already $680 without the extra's I need.

So I don't know what is good - to help me progress for the next year or two, and not limit me without having to go ape sh** and getting a 90SE.

Someone that I know at my local is actually putting together a .30 size heli, because his .90 Raptor is "too expensive to fly" with the cost of gas. He thinks more expensive than buying a new battery every month - which is currently what I'm doing.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
Rob.

[MartyH]

The Raptor 30 can be much more than a learning machine. The stock Raptor 30v2 with the OS .37 and a decent set of carbon blades like the Mavrikk g5 Pro's will do all but the most aggressive 3D. Heliproz has a combo pkg of the Raptor 30v2, the bearing upgrade, muffler and OS .37 for $460 delivered. Add your standard servos or better and you are all set. The kit should have stock wood blades to get you started. The G5's will be $75 when you are ready for stuff beyond loops and rolls. Avoid the combo kit that includes the G4 carbon blades for $40 more. They work ok but I demonstrated for myself that the G4's bog down much more than the G5's will. You'll appreciate that quite a bit when you get to 3D down the road. I have one Raptor 30, 3 Raptor 50's (a 50v1,50v2 & Titan with OS 50 hyper) and a Hirobo Sceado EVO 50.

Marty

[MartyH]

The Raptor 30 can be much more than a learning machine. The stock Raptor 30v2 with the OS .37 and a decent set of carbon blades like the Mavrikk g5 Pro's will do all but the most aggressive 3D. Heliproz has a combo pkg of the Raptor 30v2, the bearing upgrade, muffler and OS .37 for $460 delivered. Add your standard servos or better and you are all set. The kit should have stock wood blades to get you started. The G5's will be $75 when you are ready for stuff beyond loops and rolls. Avoid the combo kit that includes the G4 carbon blades for $40 more. They work ok but I demonstrated for myself that the G4's bog down much more than the G5's will. You'll appreciate that quite a bit when you get to 3D down the road. I have one Raptor 30, 3 Raptor 50's (a 50v1,50v2 & Titan with OS 50 hyper) and a Hirobo Sceado EVO 50.

Marty

I'll add also that the fuel consumption on the .30 & .37 size engines is ridiculously good. There are no real tail issues with the Raptor 50's at all. I have all versions of the 50 (my Titan is actually a titan with the SE metal head) so I can tell you from first hand experience they have no issues. I suggested the 30v2 for you for cost reasons but you are not short changing yourself. The Titan is really not much more than a regular Raptor 50 heli with push/pull linkages on pitch and elevator and a longer tail. The SE should be avoided because it is much more money for a bunch of metal parts you don't need right now or anytime in the forseeable future.

[vandelescrow]

Just one thing to add. If you get the Raptor 30 and sometime down the road you want a Raptor 50. The 30 is completely upgradeable to a 50. Different motor mount, engine, muffler, main blades, tail boom and belt. Maybe throw in a different gear ratio if you want. Thats it and they sell an upgrade kit for, dont quote me but I think its around $85

[chuckjones]

Great! Glad I asked you guys, I was really comfortable with the 30 Raptor until all the search I did on it turned up with beginners talking about crash kits :) Then coming here, same thing.... not that anyone was disparaging it as much as what they're not saying about it.

Thanks so much for the response.

One other question. There is a kit from Thunder Tiger, the with their engine - the PRO-36H I think it's called... I ask because the LHS has it in stock. Plus the manual for how to install it should be concise and I have NO idea what I'm doing as far as setting it up goes. Should I steer clear of it? If I have to get a different motor mount for the OS .37, or some sort of customization I may have to stick with the combo deal.

[newflyer2]

I traded my 450 for a raptor 30 and never looked back. the motor mounts are all the same on the 30 size. you have to have a V2 to be able to upgrade to 50 size.

[chuckjones]

Well, the one thing about my TREX is that I fly it on a field across the street from my house that is usually empty. I'll have to drive 20 minutes to go to a field (and join the club) to fly nitro... so I'm thinking the TREX will always be in the family. Until there is something better or batteries are cheaper, or fuel is $100 a gallon, etc.

[MasterCrash]

Hey -

Not sure where to go next. I've been flying a TREX 450 since July. I've had a couple of SA's, and recently a V2. I'm flying nose in, aggressive figure 8's, loops, stall turns, and inverted on the simulator - haven't had the guts to wreck my V2 yet.

I want to make the leap into the larger nitro world, without spending $2K. I'm on a limited budget (otherwise divorced). The main motivation is size, and battery expense. I'm limited to 4 minute flights tops, with $90 batteries. It's hard to practice loops and going inverted when the safe flying distance makes orientation next to impossible... so here I am!

I was looking at a Raptor 30 in the LHS. I can get it (the V2 with the PRO30? model) for about $400. I'll need the basics, pump etc, and servos (have an AR7000) for the DX7. Throw in another 401, and I'm looking at about $700 total I think.

But to my surprise, it sounds like people dismiss the 30 as a beginner's tool.... ok... I don't want to be limited, so the next up would be the 50 Titan, and that too people think is limited from my readings - IE the wood blades and some sort of tail issues. OK, then the 50SEV2... that's already $680 without the extra's I need.

So I don't know what is good - to help me progress for the next year or two, and not limit me without having to go ape sh** and getting a 90SE.

Someone that I know at my local is actually putting together a .30 size heli, because his .90 Raptor is "too expensive to fly" with the cost of gas. He thinks more expensive than buying a new battery every month - which is currently what I'm doing.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
Rob.

I own a raptor titan and have no issues with the tail BECAUSE; The tail rotor hub stock is crap, common knowledge, replace with the PV0049 hub and problem solved. Then you at the least need metal rotor blade grips, or in my case I got the Maverick all cnc rotor head, ouch, now we are at 250 dollars more then your last quote.
I think the raptor with the maverick head and tail rotor upgrade is a killer machine because it takes crashes better then anything nitro out there, but, it's a shame they [ThunderTiger] doesn't package these raptors with metal grips and tail rotor upgrade as stock. Because it just too much fuss to get the Titan upgraded to a workable machine, but well worth the time in the long run. The repairs are cheap when I wreck due to the tuff design and simple plastic body parts that seemingly hold up to botched auto gyros, misshapps and fumble thumbs eras.

SomeAlign nitros comes right out of the box , metal head, tail rotor reliable and yes like all models it has a couple of flukes, bushings wear out too fast and some models have plastic grips, LOSE THEM at once. do a search on faulty blade grips, there is endless videos out there of plastic grips exploding in flight and totally trashing the chopper. But I witnessed the lack of crashworthyness of these trex nitros and am not impressed, however they out fly outspeed and handle circles around the Raptors old 90 degree swashplate technology and over weight body.
I'll take the raptor anyday for it's crashworthyness, and cheap and readily available parts. The 50 is only 200 dollars more then the 30, get it, the 30 engine can be a pain in the a$$ to start, the 50 'Hyper' starts with a cheap cordless drill and has loads of power. Double that of the 30.
Yes there are better heli's out of the box then Raptor, such as Night 3d pro, but when you need crash parts it sucks to own anything out of the ordinairy depending on your location and Hobby Stores of course.
Don't worry about the hype with 90 degree swash versus 120 degree swash, unless you can fly like Gzabo it doesn't matter.
120 swash when done right offers less moving parts, making lighter weight, Faster response in 3D manuvers but only if the swash and servos are tied directly to one another with no elbow linkages, witch most have!! :-( Defeating the simplicity.
My Trex SA is direct 120 swash, no linkages, and ya it's nice, but don't focus on that right now. The TRex nitro uses linkages to connect there 120 swash , response is still good but the crash parts count is the same as the old 90 degree swash plate setups. well close to it anyway.
Plan on 1500 dollars for the raptor titan with the maverick head,hyper 50 motor, 0049 tail rotor and all the electric servos and 401 gyro as well. And oh ya, Don't skimp on the radio gear either, these things can chop someones head off if you lose controll and it gets behind the flight line and people , yuk you know the rest of that worry.
Now others opinions are going to vary, this is just my experience in my heli club and with my own equipment. Your doing the right thing, keep lurking and reading here and last but not least, go to the nearest flying feild and LOOK at what others are flying, consider buying what they are; because you can get help with those local boys that money can't buy.:hug: If someone out at that feild is building a raptor 30, wait, watch and listen to his complaints or compliments. Team together and buy crash parts and such. The 30 might be a good machine,
just be carefull of plastic blade grips and hard flying. AND LOOK into the tail rotor hub of the 30, Make sure the locking grub screw is separate from the rotor grip bearing shafts.
Scott

[chuckjones]

Thanks for the details Master, really appreciated!

Do you have experinece with the Thunder Tiger engines, as well as the OS ones?

If the difference is "slight", I'd like to stay with the TT engines... for the simplicity of getting going.

Thanks!
Rob.

[Funky]

I bought my Raptor 30 from a friend. The Kit itself was new but the motors that came with it were a new TT36 and a VERY used OS32. I am the 3rd owner of the OS motor. The 36 looked very nice so I tried it first. Big mistake. I tried tuning that motor for 2 days to get it running right. When I finally thought I had it flying good, it stalled on me twice in the air with no warning, forcing my first autos. I switched to the old OS32. It leaks nitro, one head bolt is broken off, the exhaust port is black from running so long... but it runs absolutely flawless. I have never had it stall on me and tuning was a peace of cake. After a few months I have around 200 flights on that old motor and it still runs like a champ. Not enough power for 3d, but great for sport flying and shooting autos. We even strapped on a GPS and got over 70mph :shock: so it is no slouch in FFF. I am not sure if the newer batches of TT motors are any better, but my TT36 is better as a paperweight and has no chance of being installed in another heli.

[chuckjones]

I didn't realize the Raptors were 90 degrees. Someone correct me here where I'm wrong, but I would think a difference between a 90 degree swash and a 120 direct linkage swash would be huge? We talk of so many subtleties in forums, but I would think this old design would be a large flaw... enough to have people flocking to get Trex Nitro's or something like that?

[vandelescrow]

I didn't realize the Raptors were 90 degrees. Someone correct me here where I'm wrong, but I would think a difference between a 90 degree swash and a 120 direct linkage swash would be huge? We talk of so many subtleties in forums, but I would think this old design would be a large flaw... enough to have people flocking to get Trex Nitro's or something like that?

The most recent RCHeli magazine did an article on the two types of swash. The Raptors swash is 90 degrees (elevator for and aft, aileron left and right) with a third servo moving the entire asembly for the collective. This is CCPM set up. The Trex uses eCCPM, 120 degree where 3 servos must move at the same speed to obtain correct cyclic / collective inputs. The only benefit to eCCPM is how fast the swash can move. The disadvantages are more risk of damaging servos in a crash, all servos must be exactly the same speed/torque, set up is much more complicated to get it perfect and you need a higher end radio that can mix eCCPM. From what RCHeli mag said, unless you are to the level of like Curtis Youngblood, the added speed of the swash would probably not be noticable to the pilot while in flight. Also the article said vary few eCCPM machines actualy use direct linkage, most use a lever somewhere between the swash and the servo. The Trex Nitro is not a direct linkage, the Trex 450 is.

[archiebald]

I'll add my 2 yen.

Raptor Parts
Tail Hub - I have heard a number of people complain about the tail rotor hub but in 400 flights, mine was fine until I upgraded the whole tail to Quick UK. We have about 10 Raptors (called Amigo here) at our club and not one of them is flying with the stainless hub (I checked) and not one owner has reported a failure. Personally, I put it down to over-tightening. If reasonable torque is applied and you use Loctite, it is not coming undone. However, if you really want peace of mind, the upgrade part from TT is only a few dollars.

Metal Blade grips - IMO are not required unless you are going to be using silly rotor speeds. Certainly not necessary on a Raptor 30. Again, I have been using the original plastics on my R50 for around 500 flights and several crashes now and the only thing I might consider is to replace the thrust bearings soon. I fly F3C aerobatics and a little 3D at 2,000 rpm.
My flying buddy has three Raptor / Amigo 50 helis. He flies very aggressive 3D at 2,100 head speed and only uses plastic grips. Never had a problem.

Swash Plate - Don't let people fool you into believing all the hype about eCCPM. Vandelescrow above has got it pretty much on the nail IMO. eCCPM brings its own set of problems to the table with minimal, if any advantage at all to the average pilot.

Engines
In my 50 I have had a fantastic experience over the last couple of years with a TT46ProH engine. Most people would tell you its crap but mine has been wonderful. Plenty enough power, cost half the asking price of an OS Hyper and consumed about half the fuel as well. I modded the high speed needle and it ran like a sewing machine, I never touched the needles through winter or summer. It allowed me to get to the point where I could outfly the engine with minimal cost. It has now been overhauled after two years of flying and has been installed into the second Amigo I am building, replaced by a YS50ST (scorcher!!)

I heard that many people have got good experience with the TT39 (no personal experience), but having said that, the OS37 I have in my scale Lama is reliable and powerful in the 30 class. I would recommend it.

[chuckjones]

Thanks guys, it became a real toss up between getting a Raptor 50 Titan and a T-Rex 600 Nitro... but when it came down to it, I read the manuals for each, and the TREX head is exactly what I'm used to now, but all of the different parts that are involved with connecting it to servos, and the motor mounting seemed to be a bit too much for me to swallow, being new to nitro in the first place.

The Titan seems fairly straight forward as far as a build goes, so I'm going this route, maybe next XMAS I'll get a 600N as well :)

Ordered the OS Hyper as well, people at the local said to ... and so I am I guess.

I'm thinking of ordering this:

http://scottgrayrc.com/reactor.php

for powering the system, seems like a great idea, RCHeli (September) gave it a 9.0 of 10. At first I thought it was the same LiPo's I was sticking in the TREX, but as it turns out - it's 7.4V 2 cells. So I'll have to buy one battery for it at least. I can't imagine that dieing after a weekend of use. I'll hook up my Datalogger to it to see I guess.

Can anyone help me with the servo choices? I'm swamped by all the choices in this arena. I'm looking for $50 - $75 range. I have a Futaba 9254 for the tail that came with the 401 gyro, but I'll need the cyclic and the throttle servos.

[vandelescrow]

I am putting to gether a Raptor 90 and will be putting the Scott Gray Reactor in it. When you pick your servos, just make sure they will operate at 6 volt wich is what the Reactor will put to the cyclic / collective servos.

For the switch to turn it all on and checking the voltage of the battery, I went with the products sold at http://fromeco.org/ A bit pricier but with the Deans plug upgrade on the switch, it's ready to go.

As far as your question, servos. Do a search here (helifreak) for "servo chart" and find the best torque/speed in your price range. Just remember if you go with Futaba, you will have to trim the tab off to plug them into the Reactor.

[robbin wilham]

hey i bought a used raptor .30 v1 and its got the .36 engine and ive got a v2 also but never had to touch the carb so i have no experience,but i think the v1 has carb issues does anyone know what the bench setting is for the low speed needle, ive got the manual and it gives the hi speed setting but not the low side, is there any work i can do myself to the needles to get them to run better, i was told this engine had carb trouble from new ,any help would be greatly appreciated,thanks

[chuckjones]

Hello again, I went and built the Raptor 50 Titan. Pretty smooth, the JR 8717's are really freaking loud but other than that I have one small issue. This is going to get me slapped for sure.

I don't know what I'm doing with the fuel line, and the fueling process itself.

I've attached a photo of where I am so far.

1) At the end of a T, I have a dot. This is where I'd plug in the line that I'd use to fill it, but I can't find that filler valve... if that's the right word for it. Can't find it.

2) Do my lines look ok? Do I need to lengthen them, tie them down to the frame in some way, anything...

3) Should I install a one way valve between the muffler and the the fuel tank? Can I use one of them for filling as well?

4) I'm looking at this http://helihobby.com/html/fuel_pumps.html - the "Deluxe filling station", so I can screw this to the top of the bottles of fuel. Does this make sense to you?

5) I'd like a field box to tote this stuff, any links?

6) What sort of fuel should I run in my OS? Break in procedure seems pretty simple. Am I missing something...?

7) So the process is - clamp the line between the T and the engine, and fill it up, and then release the clamp, prime and crank away? You'll note I'm using the align regulator as well, so I'm pumped about that. At least that part should be "simple".

Thanks, again, flame away, but I'm lost.

[enahs]

To fuel the helicopter you will need to place a clamp between the carb and your T-filter. Like these: http://www.heliproz.com/prodinfo.asp?number=106455
You slide the fuel tubing through the hole and connect it back to the carb. When you are fueling (using the line coming out from the T) you push the clamp down to prevent fuel from entering the carb and flooding. Unclamp just prior to starting the engine.

Your lines look fine to me.

That filling station would work. I use this: http://www.heliproz.com/prodinfo.asp?number=103150
You just have to drill the holes on your fuel cap to use. I just move the cap from one fuel jug to another as I go through the fuel. I can take a picture of my setup if you would like to see what it looks like on. The filling station you found seems to be a bit more organized.

I use this for my flight box: http://www.heliproz.com/prodinfo.asp?number=103420
It's not too big and you have to build it but it works. If you'd rather spend a few dollars more and buy one prebuilt: http://www.heliproz.com/prodinfo.asp?number=103435

I run Coolpower 15% fuel in my helis right now. I do not need the extra umph from 30%, nor do I want to spend that much. You can look to see what your LHS sells. I would start with 15% or 20%.

I would seek some help if you can find an experienced pilot who flies glow engines to help a bit get you up and running. It's not hard, but having some help never hurts.

You do not need to prime the engine. Once you unclamp it, just fire it up. My Raptor with the Hyper fired up after 1 or 2 tries with the starter.

Hopefully this helps. Should you need any clarification or have another question feel free to ask!

[enahs]

Also, the fuel line that comes in the Raptor kits does not last long. It will be fine for a bit but I would buy some new line and replace it sometime soon. I use this for the clunk lines in the main tank and header tank: http://www.heliproz.com/prodinfo.asp?number=181630
I bought 3 feel initially and it should last for a while.

I use this for the rest: http://www.heliproz.com/prodinfo.asp?number=181645

Your LHS should have fuel tubing in stock. Just remember the clunk lines are the thinner stuff while the rest is the medium size.

[strick276]

Dito no the fuel lines especialy on the clunk lines. They are very thin and will split and fall off in the tank. You will suck dry the header tank in a couple of minuets and have to auto it in. I had one last 4 weeks and one last 2 flights.

[chuckjones]

To fuel the helicopter you will need to place a clamp between the carb and your T-filter. Like these: http://www.heliproz.com/prodinfo.asp?number=106455
You slide the fuel tubing through the hole and connect it back to the carb. When you are fueling (using the line coming out from the T) you push the clamp down to prevent fuel from entering the carb and flooding. Unclamp just prior to starting the engine.

Coooool. I think the one think that I'm confused about is the fact that at the end of the T - is tubing, so I need to have a plug of some sort at the end of the fueling line to plug into that tubing. Should I just use a filter, since this seems to be the only thing I see that resembles it?

[chuckjones]

Also, the fuel line that comes in the Raptor kits does not last long. It will be fine for a bit but I would buy some new line and replace it sometime soon.

LOL.... alll the links are out of stock... but I see what you're talking about, I'll look for comparable at hellihobby or somewhere else, thank you.

I've read that in my heli mag that the lines were crap, but thought it was just being overcautious. Given that it's the lifeblood of the system, I guess I'm just a little further from starting this thing up.

[chuckjones]

all the small and blue lines are sold out in helihobby and heliproz. nice. any other sites you nitro lovers use?

[enahs]

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0094p?&N=P&P=0&F=GPMQ4130&L=SULQ1221&C=QCBSUL
They have Dubro fuel tubing which is good stuff. They have the plain blue small and standard lines and they also have the standard lines in other colors.

The fuel cap fitting link I gave you will have a thing that plugs into the T- line to fuel your heli. Here is another link to the fuel cap fitting:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXJ811&P=0
The thing at the top right of the picture is what is used to connect for fueling. The longer portion connects to your fuel tubing.

[chuckjones]

Hey there -

Thanks for your help Shane, this stuff seems simple, but not to me at this stage of my hobby. These simple ?'s were bugging me for weeks, just ordered everything from Tower Hobbies.

Rob.