Vstabi will be getting easier....at least I am hopefull :D

[OICU812]

For those of you who goto the Wiki forum,

http://www.vstabi.de/

which is escentially the VStabi/Vbar forum right now, hosted by and answered by Ulrich and Rainer & friends you may have noticed I have been posting my questions and rants of course as well, lol. I know I am such a pain in the arse. Anyhow my goal for all of us Mikado people and for us Vstabi owners or soon to be owners is to simplify the Vstabi even more, from initial setup to tuning.

Lets face it, the people who created this amazing technology understand it, inside and out, they also understand each small step to making a heli fly perfect. I for one do not, and the way it is currently layed out it is going to take me some time, honestly I do not know if I can or ever would understand it all.

Ulrich has taken comments and ideas into his hands and has allready created a prototype swash wizard which really will help newcomers, in looking at it quickly it would have helped me heaps and is simple.

I do not wish to take anyone away from this forum at all, but if you do have any ideas at all in making the software easier please help me in my mission to encourage these guys to make the software easier to get setup initially and also even better yet, make it easier to fine tune your Vstabi equipped heli to fly exactly how you want it to, that is my personal goal is to have tuning wizards as well that will guide the user to perfection no matter what blades, motors etc...

I sincerely feel these guys are willing to make it work best for us, there is abit of a language barrier there for certain but if the support is there and we keep our ideas specific and simple we will all get what we want in the end. If we blast them with too much it might be overwhelming and discouraging, so lets research our ideas and make them firm.

I hope the Mikado community will assist me in offering these guys ideas that will make life easier, and support and praise of course so that we can all get the most out of the software and the product, thanks fellas. :wink:

[Ticidytoc]

Swash wizard ? I'm confused, what exactly are they going to make easier to set up in the swash ? Can you elaborate here ?

[OICU812]

The swash wizard was just the first thing they wanted to work on and try to see if it was a part of what the people are looking for.... Ultimately I am looking for a fine tunung 3D wizard but hey must have a begining.


Since the manual is abit foggy in parts Matt. It will guide a new user step by step through each process of trimming etc, to the point where you will plug it in and go through each step. At the end of each wizard, servos will turn the right way, the swash will be perfectly level with servos centered, and the gyro will re act properly etc. This simply ensures that the user has done each required step and is in full understanding if how it works. I do not feel the manual explains enough, and the software intially is intimidating. Feel free to throw eggs at me for wanting it on a silver platter. Ultimately I do not care what makes it roll faster, stop more precise I just want it to do it. Its like Alvin said on that post, in the flybar world we know that a longer flybar on certain helis will make it fast, and more stable in most cases, if we want a faster roll we can apply lighter paddles to. There is no clear indication in the manual for Vbar saying what exactly to do to acheive these things, they want you to experiment and learn all the fine pyshcics. I am saying ok have in the end fine tuning wizards where I can go in and click on "increase aileron cyclic speed", then it might pop up and say that has now affected this as well, and guide you through a couple quick other balancing items or simply tell you to watch for something in your next flight and what you might adjust..... see where I am going with this or am I crazy...?:roll:

Guess I want a Vbar for dummies like me edition, lol.

Using someones file gets you going for sure, but peeps will want to use different blades, motors etc and we all want our models to fly the best they can. That is where the tuning wizards will come into play.

[Ticidytoc]

Ah, sounds good. That would make things easier for people for sure. Making changes on an electric heli can be a pain unless you have an unlimited supply of batteries to play with while out at the field.

Seems like I learn something new every time I go out and play with a setting and go through a few packs doing it.

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

I think this is all a great idea! I will be getting a vbar in a few months and something like this would be great until I figure it out. Makes me feel a little better about the investment.

[OICU812]

Ah, sounds good. That would make things easier for people for sure. Making changes on an electric heli can be a pain unless you have an unlimited supply of batteries to play with while out at the field.

Seems like I learn something new every time I go out and play with a setting and go through a few packs doing it.


Honestly this is what I am taking into consideration Matt and amd trying to get those good ol German boys on same page. I to want to understand it, but honestly I do not want to or need to know it as good as them. I would like to see every user be able to tune their heli "very well" within a dozen packs of flight. Is it truly possibly? I do not know, all I am saying is at least trim off some of the intimidation in the beggining setup, then as a big bonus "once all basics are done" use the knowledge they have to guide us "in the software" to tune our helis to exactly what we want in flight, regardless of what you use for accessories etc. I hope I have not offended anyone, only trying to help.

[Ticidytoc]

I don't think you offended anyone, esp if they already whipped up a wizard for the swash. I think that since the majority of the pilots do not speak German, it helps that things would be properly translated. It can be work to sit and read over and over to try and figure out what they are trying to say in some of the wiki. After a while it starts to make sense.

I will say, having worked in retail ages ago, I learned there are many people who would rather know just the answer to their question rather than learning how you got there. There was a saying I heard a long time ago, had something to do with some guy and fishing. :wink:

[Flybar-less]

Shawn,
I am glad you are working with the Vstabi guys. It looks great! Sure beats Babelfish to learn what others have gone through.:) I think they have a great product and know the English speaking countries are their biggest market.

I have been flying mine 3 times a day with these newly dug up sofware plugins and parameters (IC sensor and AOF), a completely different setup in another bank, and it is great!

Thanks

[Foamy Love]

Maybe its just me, but I found the V-Stabi software simple.:dontknow

The only thing that I was a little confiused about was the bell-hiller settings. I.E. what setting effects what. I figured that out with trial and error though.

[th3tick]

I'm 100% with you on this. While I stumbled through it and got it working basically, I'm now sitting here trying to understand what fine tuning I still need to do. Everything moves in the right ways, but I'm not sure what still isn't set up the way it's supposed to be.

The whole "strikes back" vs. "keeps turning" bit is one that's a classic. I basically understand what this means, but I have no idea how to go fly and test this. I'd read somewhere that there was a sequence you went through to see its behavior and you set it based on that. I tried that, but was so overwhelmed by its massive elevator rate that I never quite figured out which it was doing.

I think even something which merely documented each setting, such as saying what it does, how to test it in-flight and then exactly what to adjust, and what other things are affected by it would even be a great start ahead of wizards. Sometimes even the one stab at terminology (strikes back?) can make a real roadblock. It is, however, one that could be knocked down with a few tweaks (bounces back?).

For example, I think I need to do some work with the AOF, as in FF, it seems very reluctant to keep going once I start, which must be it coming back up. But it says I first need to get the strikes back/keeps turning bit perfect, but really on one side of that. So not having that perfect leaves me a bit stuck for this.

Of course, now it's really the weather that has me stuck...

The other things to tweak would be adjustments on the V-Stabi vs. adjustments on the Tx. For example, if I want to tame the heli a bit, what are the advantages and disadvantages of each approach - reducing elevator and aileron cyclic speed? upping stability? putting in some expo?

I'm probably a lot more novicey than most folks here, so some of the basics would really help. Not just getting things moving in the right direction, but the tweaking to (my version of) perfection.

Dammit! I've written a novel again...

John

[th3tick]

OK, I went over and read that wizard posting and such. It sounds even better than I'd hoped. Excellent suggestions!

How ready for prime time would you say it is? Wait one iteration? I'm just wondering if it's worth re-doing my whole setup with this thing yet, or I should wait.

Winter is making me restless ;)
John

[OICU812]

When they get to the point of having a fine tuning or flight tuning wizard, at that point I would say jump. Right now they seem committed to doing the begiining part and the wizards associated. For the record it is not that I myself found the Vstabi as it is to be hard to initially setup, it is about making it easier for everyone, especially people new to it. And for the people that are more advanced or have got the basics done, easier to make it better so your model will do exactly as you wish.

[fogger]

This will be a big step toward making the tech more ready for prime time, IE widespread adoption by the masses. You early adopters are typically more willing to deal with the pain of a steep learning curve than most, but this effort by Mikado should reduce the grade of the curve quite a bit. Then once you're up and running you can always hit the "advanced" tab and get to the nuts and bolts of fine-tweaking later...

-Fog

[BobbySmith]

I might add as well the Vbar software is very simple to use it is jsut a matter of understanding what does what.. And trying things i have both my 600 flying flawless.....

[RockinRyan]

I am right on the verge of ordering a Logo 600 3D and was thinking that I should commit, or not, to the V-Bar right now, so I only buy one head, and to get the package discount on the electronics. I currently have a pair of TRex 600's and while I love them, I feel they are sloppy and would like to try the precision of a Mikado for myself.

Now I'm not particularly great a flying yet, and the only thing really close to the 3D that I do is when I nearly crash and I enter into the oh-crap-don't-crash Olympics! None the less, I forsee some 3D in my future and appreciate what I've read about the increased efficiency.

Now I have absolutely no one around here that I know of with a V-Bar, so I'm all alone if I go this route. The question is, is it premature for ME to make the commitment to the V-Bar, or will it be something I can set up with reasonable effort and start enjoying right away?

I'm a computer programmer, so I don't expect to be particularly confused by the technology, but I will say that the weather is crap where I live for the next 5 to 6 months and I will not have large windows of time to tinker with a long slow setup process.

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter!
Ryan

[th3tick]

RockinRyan, you sound like you are near where I am when I got mine. I have one T-Rex 600, and my few attempts at anything resembling 3D, well, mostly haven't ended well ;)

I found the Logo to be a bit scary to set up, and the documentation thin. However, if you're already comfortable setting up the mechanical stuff, you can certainly get the V-Bar working well enough to enjoy flying it, and then start worrying about tweaking little mis-behaviors. That's exactly where I'm at.

I'm only into flying helis approaching a year, and my flying shows it. However, even I got this bird up in the air with only help from the forums (you all know who you are), and with the instructions.

You'll be thoroughly impressed with the difference the Logo brings to the table both in construction and flight abilities.

John

[NTM]

Glad to see you're still looking at logo's.
If you're comfortable with the expenditure, go for it !

The v-bar isn't bad to set up with the logo 600, you can just use Daniel's cyclic parameters on 600mm v-blades and go fly pretty much. It's the fine tuning that's in depth and time consuming, but I don't think you'll be doing a whole lot of that right away.

I actually think it might be better to be early in the learning curve with the v-bar, that way you're not having to re-learn maneuvers. It flies a little differently than a flybar, not in a bad way, more in a good way. I find myself giving unneeded control inputs when flying the v-bar, because there is no need to keep the heli "tracking" through maneuvers. It's hard to just let the v-bar do it's thing sometimes though, and I'm sure the more experience you have, the harder it is to relenquish control and trust the v-bar.

Regards,
Nathan

[RockinRyan]

Hi Nathan!

Yes, you planted an evil seed with the promise of extra precision and control! You raise some interesting points on VBar transition. Still, I wonder if you are not a better pilot learning how to make those fine correction mid-maneuver?

So it's funny to see a flybar in your avatar! That's the Logo 14 I didn't grab when I should have isn't it? Ahh, the heli that got away...

One thing is for sure, I don't like wasting money buy doing things in waves. If I chose NOT to go VBar that would be the intended direction for a while to come, which is why I am over thinking it now...

So what happens to the expensive electronics when you crash? Are they sturdy or will I always be afraid to really fly it for fear of a $1000 crash? I've never even seen a V-Bar, so I really have no idea how big or rugged the components might be.

Ryan

[OICU812]

Ryan goto the vid section, and watch Danny Jetschins flight in the Ircha video.

[NTM]

Hi Nathan!

Yes, you planted an evil seed with the promise of extra precision and control! You raise some interesting points on VBar transition. Still, I wonder if you are not a better pilot learning how to make those fine correction mid-maneuver?

So it's funny to see a flybar in your avatar! That's the Logo 14 I didn't grab when I should have isn't it? Ahh, the heli that got away...

One thing is for sure, I don't like wasting money buy doing things in waves. If I chose NOT to go VBar that would be the intended direction for a while to come, which is why I am over thinking it now...

So what happens to the expensive electronics when you crash? Are they sturdy or will I always be afraid to really fly it for fear of a $1000 crash? I've never even seen a V-Bar, so I really have no idea how big or rugged the components might be.

Ryan


The electronics aren't easily damaged, they're small and tucked into the 600 frame in a way that they're very protected. I've augered my 600 in twice already and the electronics weren't even close to being in danger.

And no I don't think making those little corrections mid maneuver makes you a better pilot persay. I think just spending time on orientation practice, and orientation transition practice, is much more beneficial in the long run.

The extra power and effeciency is worth it to me for the $700 it costs, the flight manners, reduced weight and reduced crash costs are icing on the cake.
A power setup I was running in the (lighter) logo 14 was drawing 110+ amps, that same setup in the vbar 600, at the same head speed, blade size, blade pitch and gear ratio would only draw 85-90 amps.

Regards,
Nathan

[RockinRyan]

I'm assuming you mean this video:
http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=43226

So how much VBar programming does it take to make it do all that by itself? :) I actually think I had seen that clip before when reading an article on the V-Bar. I don't know how you guys get to that level. It's unreal...

So with the added efficiency, you're seeing longer flight times right? How much longer would you say? 15%, 20%? I'm amazed at how the VBar could improve efficiency like it does. The whole thing is fascinating. What I liked when I first heard about it, was that it was using real helicoptor physics - real cyclic pitch to get elevator and aileron movement. The whole thing is very cool and seems overdue to me.

You guys are baiting me down a pricey path! Here nooby nooby nooby! If it were spring I'd already have one on the way! Do you guys think the price will drop any over the next four months? I see a 600 3D with electronics for $1209 + shipping. That seems pretty good to me...

Also, what tail servos are people using with these? I have to remind myself that the gyro is part of the package... so say goodbye to the 611 that I was planning for the regular f/b head.

So much to think about! And even more temptation!
Ryan

[th3tick]

One way to save a few bucks is to head to the Logo 500 and use 6S packs from your T-Rex 600 (assuming you're using ones that fit). The FP 5000s work, but not the 4900s...

John

[RockinRyan]

I do have some 6S packs still, but I recently decided to abandon them because the TR600 just eats them alive IMO. It's funny, I was just jumping back on to ask the following:

"Don't I pretty much have to go with 10S if I want to do a 600 3D any justice?" I have three sets of 8S, so that'd be a big saver, but would I be sorry in the long run? I have a new Neu 1910/1Y/H which is perfect for 8S...

What would Brian Boitano do? :)
Ryan

[NTM]

I'm assuming you mean this video:
http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=43226

So how much VBar programming does it take to make it do all that by itself? :) I actually think I had seen that clip before when reading an article on the V-Bar. I don't know how you guys get to that level. It's unreal...

So with the added efficiency, you're seeing longer flight times right? How much longer would you say? 15%, 20%? I'm amazed at how the VBar could improve efficiency like it does. The whole thing is fascinating. What I liked when I first heard about it, was that it was using real helicoptor physics - real cyclic pitch to get elevator and aileron movement. The whole thing is very cool and seems overdue to me.

You guys are baiting me down a pricey path! Here nooby nooby nooby! If it were spring I'd already have one on the way! Do you guys think the price will drop any over the next four months? I see a 600 3D with electronics for $1209 + shipping. That seems pretty good to me...

Also, what tail servos are people using with these? I have to remind myself that the gyro is part of the package... so say goodbye to the 611 that I was planning for the regular f/b head.

So much to think about! And even more temptation!
Ryan


Actually I think I'm seeing flight time gains on order of 25% !
Some credit goes to the new gears, tail belt design and lower tail drive ratio, but still, I'm landing at 5 minutes with a 4000 watt continous capable power system (that adds about 300 grams over a lighter setup) and I'm only consuming 2400-2900mah. That's with "fly it like you hate it" 3d.

The kicker is though that you can actually get away with less power on the v-bar to achieve ballistic performance, I'm stretching my 6003d, the one with the neu 1915 and 4350mah packs, out a bit to run 690mm blades, and I'm positive it'll pull them with authority and still get decent flight times. This power system is way overkill on 600mm and even 620mm blades with the v-bar.

My second 600 3d is going the opposite direction with 600mm blades, 3700mah packs and a tango 45-08. I've got a couple neu 1912-1y's kicking around but I really think the tango will be a better motor on the v-bar due to it's superior effeciency at lower amp draws. Combined with a 5350 evo lite pack this setup would have extremely long flight times and still have excellent power.

The price will not drop, I'd go as far as to say this stuff is a bargain already at that price, you'll understand when you build it and fly it.

I'm using a futaba 9256 currently, but plan to change to the bls251, the vbar supports futaba's narrow pulsewidth tail servos.

Regards,
Nathan

[OICU812]

I do have some 6S packs still, but I recently decided to abandon them because the TR600 just eats them alive IMO. It's funny, I was just jumping back on to ask the following:

"Don't I pretty much have to go with 10S if I want to do a 600 3D any justice?" I have three sets of 8S, so that'd be a big saver, but would I be sorry in the long run? I have a new Neu 1910/1Y/H which is perfect for 8S...

What would Brian Boitano do? :)
Ryan


Ticidytoc is running a Logo 6003D on 8S with that very motor, you should ask him his thoughts. I myself feel that optimum is 10S though for sure. all imho of course.

**NOTE** 8s does work well on a Logo 5003D however with 560 mains.

8S