Pricing for AP services !!

[dunkmeister]

Guys:

What are folks doing about pricing?

>> pricing on hourly basis, or project basis?
>> what kind of rates are acceptable to clients?
>> are you retaining copyright of the pix, or will client have it?
>> what kind of deposits, if any, are you getting to lock in a job?


Re: copyright, I have a long career in book publishing, and the law is clear in that field: in a work for hire, the party doing the hiring owns the copyright (ie, he who pays owns copyright). I am considering having the client, a priori and as a condition of doing the job, grant me a non-exclusive right to use pix in my promo mtls. Anyone have experience re: this?

Thx and God bless you.

dunkmeister

[j_kookboy]

[

What are folks doing about pricing?

>> pricing on hourly basis, or project basis?

Both depending on who the client is, what the shoot is, where the shoot is, how long the shoot is.

>> what kind of rates are acceptable to clients?

Loaded question. What are you shooting ?

Survey's, real estate, construction, road construction, plant survey's, cell/tower damage/weathering.

Don't sell yourself short but don't charge $1,000 per shoot if you are starting out with a Trex450 and a small point n' shoot camera.

There are a lot of threads covering this. I would recommend to hop over to Runryder and look in the AP section.

>> are you retaining copyright of the pix, or will client have it?

Yes. Retaining all copyrights unless the client would like to purchase the copyright.

>> what kind of deposits, if any, are you getting to lock in a job?

Goes back to your 'rates' question. Deposits can be held for a recurring shoot such as a construction development.

I'd also recommend to buy Greg's How-to- AP book. It will answer a lot of your questions.

Jesse

[dunkmeister]

Jesse,

good advice, thx. Just ordered bk at: http://www.aerialphotobook.com/ for other newbies.

Do you know anything about remote-controlled still cameras? There is a website out of Aussie land that has a chart that has me intrigued. URL is http://www.blip.com.au/item.aspx?itemID=14
(http://www.blip.com.au/item.aspx?itemID=14)

Seems video cam is pretty much set it, hit play and take off. But still cams I wld like to be able to do things while in the air: eg, bracket exposures and/or backlight compensation, etc.

If anyone else can inform me on this topic, pls have a wack at it. Thx again, Jesse.

Duncan

[crewchief]

I finally broke down and ordered the AP business book online, mostly out of curiosity. I'm sure I'll learn something, or at least I hope so for $60! The problem with most how-to books is that they're too heavily oriented towards the beginner. Also this is definitely a niche market.

I have a completely different approach to the AP business than what I hear most people talking about. First I hooked up with somebody who already is a known quantity to realtors. I've shot over 60 jobs in the last couple of months for $49.99 a picture, of which I get 1/2. Crazy? Like a fox. Copyright? They own it if they buy the picture! We've got lots of people hooked now, and the word has gotten around. Realtors trying to sell in this slow market are realizing that the other listings with aerials are getting more attention. Come January 1st the new pricing structure comes into effect. So far I'd consider our marketing a lost leader, but that's about to change.

Some of these discussions remind me of a garage band dreaming about how they're going to spend their millions when they get signed. The main thing is to SHOOT A LOT OF PICTURES, even if you have to do it dirt cheap to stay busy. You'll get to be a better pilot and photographer, build your confidence, and expose yourself to more of the public. After that the value of your service will be more evident to yourself and to others. I've got a friend who started out flying RC/AP 8 years ago and now makes $3000 a shot (BTW he uses a mast now). I'm sure he can obsess over who owns the copyright, but I know I'm not there yet. If we can stick with it long enough then maybe we'll be getting $3K at shot someday!

[j_kookboy]

It's difficult to answer because the question "how much do you charge" is very broad with a diverse industry/field like this.

There's guys/company's doing everything imaginable where you can plant an RC heli into.

Jesse

[crewchief]

That's right - there are things other than straight AP that you can do with RC helis. I know farmers right now who are willing to pay $300 - $500 for a thermal analysis of their crops several times a year. This is cheap insurance for them, as it could save them 100 times that by spotting irrigation and pest problems early. Yep, a $12,000 thermography camera is expensive, but at $500 a job, it doesn't look so bad. Get a dozen or so farmers to sign up, and you're in business.

Something I'm exploring is using long-line lifting techniques. Pilots call this "vertical reference flying" and there's a huge demand for these specialized skills in the full-scale world (it requires a special FAA certification). I've been practicing with a 20' rope lifting about a 5 lb load. Around here when the rivers flood in the spring, there are always people who capsize their rafts and end up clinging to a rock or tree in the middle of the river. It's really hard for the firemen to get out to them because of the current. You could fly a ring out there with a poly rope attached to it, and drop it a little upstream. Then the rescue crew could haul them over to the bank. I'm sure there are lots of other applications as well.

BTW long-line work is not for the timid, and it is easy to get uncontrollable oscillations and an airborne version of dynamic rollover if the rope touches a skid. But I think if it could be mastered, with a video monitor pointing straight down at the load, it could have a lot of potential. It's really a matter of supply and demand, but sometimes you have to convince the public they require your services. Like the old Kaiser Cement slogan said, "Find a need and fill it!"

[kyle]

>> pricing on hourly basis, or project basis?
We charge hourly from the minute we start up the truck until the job or day is complete. (Covers fuel costs, breakfast, etc.)

>> what kind of rates are acceptable to clients?
We start at $250 per hour for photography and $375 per hour for high def video with SDE of their clips.(same day edit)
>> are you retaining copyright of the pix, or will client have it?
All products are given to the client.

>> what kind of deposits, if any, are you getting to lock in a job?
We only require our liability waiver, confidentiality agreement, and approved signed bid to proceed with a job. Also stated in bold on the bid that "Payment Terms: Net 30 Days"

[SeismicCWave]

>>What are folks doing about pricing? <<

That is the six million dollar question. Not only are you looking for the answer for AP work. The rest of the world is looking for the answer for what ever they are doing.

After being in the highly competitive contracting business for 20 years I DO have the answer but it is NOT the answer you will like.

As you know in contracting there is a lot of estimating involved. Same thing with every other business. You have to figure out your costs and add a profit for your time.

Sounds simple but in the end pricing is the most complicated little marketing problem you will face in your life.

The real simple answer is:

"You want to get the highest amount (most likely in dollars) that your customer is willing to pay for either your goods or services."

That's it, simple!

[Jay]

Ofcourse pricing is subject to market. In our area the full scale pros are getting about $400 per photo shoot, usually suppling 2 to3 high end shots of a subject (construction or real estate)
Based on this, $250 to $300 for shooting a single subject is a bargan and marketing companies are open to new ideas such as R/C A/P.
I am sure every area of the country is different and I have heard of some bringing a lot more than this and I have even heard of a local guy offering R/C A/P for as low as $45. Not even worth loading up my equipment for that.

[crewchief]

There are lots of guys who have their helicopter ratings who are trying to find ways to build hours so they can go to work commercially. Many of them will hook up with a photographer and take orders for $89 or less, and shoot 8 jobs in an hour. I used to do this just to get helicopter time on somebody else's nickel.

In our area the most expensive services are mast photography, because not many people have the equipment, and you can do low-light work. You have to start somewhere, and pay your dues. If nobody knows who you are and you want to turn your nose up at a $50 job, well, you might want to think about going to work at Home Depot for that steady paycheck. In California you can get $200 a shot all day long, but in rural states it's more like $50 when you're starting out.

Also, no matter what kind of business it is, success is proportional to how you treat people. You have to smile and try to please them no matter how unreasonable their requests are, or how difficult they are to work with. And trust me, some real estate agents can be b**ches. If you ever get your back up, no matter how justified, the word gets around. Also, some AP businesses HAVE to make $300 an hour when they've got employees, vehicles and video editing equipment to pay off, so keep your expenses down and learn to shoot solo.

[Jay]

I totally agree about Real estate agents, and I do not go out of my way to attract them as clients.
As for getting $50 a job, if you can earn a living on that, then God bless you, you are a better man than me.
Not being snobby, just very politely decline to work at that rate.
I am not wealthy, but don't need a job at Home Depot either, Thanks for your concern

[crewchief]

Five jobs a day at $50 is not that bad.

[psindrup]

Five jobs a day at $50 is not that bad.

Is that realistic? Five jobs a day?

Remember you have to post process you pictures and maintain you "photo ship" too.

Peter

[Jay]

Crewchief,
I guess I should not knock your pricing. If that is what your market can handle and you are happy with 5 jobs at $50 each than that is Great.
Standing in my shoes things may look a little different. I know the pricing in my market, I also know that there are several different levels of A/P work being offered.
Your average Real estate agent does not need a shot taken form a 2K camera shot in RAW format that will be on the front pages of magazines. High end publications will accept nothing less.
I know the manager of a company that is paying $1,500 per day (plus expenses such as cranes and drive time and set up) to a photographer for their brochures and ad copies. At $300 to shoot some aerials, that seems pretty cheap compared to what a crane cost and their normal photographer.
If I was using a T-rex 450 with a askman and a point and shoot for a real estate shot that did not require higher resolution, than well, I would probably be able to do it for less. Currently I am considered "overkill" for their basic needs and therefor I do not seek that market.
What kills me is when you are in a good market environment and have invested in high end equipment and someone starts undercutting prices at $50 a job. What happens is that the managers and owners of companies that you have been working with start thinking, am I getting ripped off? It ends up degrading the market. When you read the A/P book that you have ordered you will find Greg Mcnair expains this much better than I can. It does however, all work itself out in the end.
I am not trying to bragg and I am not tring to give you advise ( I am about as middle class as they get). I just want you to stand in the shoes of those who have a sizeable investment ( my investment is nothing like some on these forums)
5 fully loaded A/P Helis, (3 gassers, 1 nitro, 1 electric) 1 airplane.
insurance, advertising, a vehicle to carry the equipment, downlinks, stabilizers, mounts, laptops, software, cameras and years spent developing skill and technique. All this and I have just scratched the surface.
I know everyone has to start somewhere, and if $50 a job is where you start, than so be it.
I would just encourage you to consider pricing your time, efforts, your equipment and risk so that you can obtain a higher level of success in the future.

[crewchief]

Jay,

Thanks for your excellent observations. It's true what you said about undercutting other professionals - predatory pricing ends up hurting everyone, including the customer in the long run, due to quality issues, so I agree completely. Around Boise there is a big fish who pretty much controls the AP market. He's a really nice guy, but the company that I contract for felt it necessary to talk to him at length to make sure that what we were going to do was OK with him. They've formed sort of a loose alliance to avoid encroaching on each other's business, and also they refer work to each other.

So the $50/picture (which was an introductory price and is about to go to $89 for most shots), is within the context of a larger picture. All the marketing and billing is handled by the company's staff, which is nice because I don't have to be a collection agency, and I have far less overhead. At the end of the month I submit an invoice for the pictures I've taken and I get paid immediately regardless of whether the company has actually been paid by their customers (you know how that goes).

This company initiated 3,850 new tours in 2007. That's an average of over 10 tours a day, each with multiple pictures, and an increasing number with aerials. They've got 10 photographers and I'm the only person shooting aerials. The guy who started the company used to shoot 8 - 10 houses a day in a good market, so on some days you're quite busy.

As you said, it depends on your local market. If I were still in California, the realtors have told me they'd pay $200 - $250 for the same service. The approach I've taken here - working as part of a team instead of going solo - was largely a matter of necessity. It's a matter of leveraging off an established marketing presence; I get paid less per shot, but I get 5-10 times more work. I'm just presenting these ideas as an alternative approach in case someone else is having trouble generating enough business on their own.

Have a happy and safe holiday season!

[olivethreesixty]

I too started a traditional photography studio a few years ago, and was super cheap to get experience... some people in that position quit, some improve until they realize their prices aren't sustainable....i would gladly shoot weddings for $50 or AP for $30 per shot, but unfortunately I would have to live in a tent in outer Mongolia.... I had a client today that wanted to pay about 50% of my normal price, i could do it, but i'd have to sell my house and sleep in a ditch, it's that simple... kids will do it cheap until they do it enough then they will want as much cash as you... it'll work itself out...


joey:lol:

[Greg McNair]

Bruce, I hope the book has given you your money's worth. I certainly put information in there to help save you at least that much in mistakes!

On the topic of pricing, I thought it would be noteworthy to tell you about a trend which is migrating throughout the southeast, and perhaps elsewhere. A group of fullscale AP'ers are offering $77 monthly packages to developers/builders for progress photos. For that money, the builder gets four 8x10 glossy prints shot on all 4 compass points. The hitch? They must sign at least a 6 month contract. Even if the project lasts only 2. But I won't even start my car for $77, much less drive to the airport, and push the plane out of the hangar. It just won't happen. As someone pointed out earlier, I could do it, but I wouldn't have what I am accustomed to. And to make sure I wasn't losing my mind, I contacted a colleague who shoots fullscale in a town a couple hours north of me, and he agreed about not even starting his car, and also said that whoever these guys are, they're moving in on his territory.

Sure, I could knock my prices down by a factor of 5 to get on that pricing level, but why? I would rather shoot 5 projects per month to get paid what he's getting paid to do 25. My risk is less, my overhead is less, my headaches are less, and my shutter lasts 5 times longer!

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I've never met anyone making a comfortable living shooting AP solely for realtors. If you are, give me a reason to eat my words! I know plenty of companies which exist to shoot ground-based photos for realtors. But that's a different ballgame. Soccer moms can do that work. There's not many soccer moms with Rebel XTi's hanging out of 172's and md500's....not yet anyways.

[iflybyu77]

Eat your words, Greg!

I suppose it IS cheating if I AM the realtor. :) Yes, it's paying off in spades. In fact I designed new billboards and postcard mailings to advertise it heavily. The response from our clients and potential clients has been astounding.

[cainebean]

A soocer mom can do grounds huh? To me, a good interior is way harder than any aerial. With aerials you have one source of light. In a normal home you have about 5 or 6 per room. Talk about white balance nightmare!

[Greg McNair]

I agree Caine, without a doubt it can be tough to shoot a good interior. But the majority of folks don't pay attention to blown out windows, nor do they care, for RE listings. Soccer moms are the majority of realtors in our town, and on weekends they're printing out $5 4x6's at ballparks with their cameras to make ends meet when home sales are slow. What they are not doing is hopping into planes and giving me or any other AP'ers in this town a run for our money. While waiting for prints at Wolf last week, a lady walked in and was complaining to a counterperson that her husband had bought this camera (a 5d) for her for Christmas, and "the damn thing doesn't even have a flash, so I need to find out how to get one for it, or get another camera." I chuckled quietly to myself, and watched as one of the other counter girls did the same out of view of the customer.

To me, this is the benchmark of well-lit photography: http://www.atticfirearchitecture.com/main.htm It is the yardstick which I could only hope to one day measure up to.

ifly---I'm talking about a standalone AP realty photography company which did nothing else. If you dumped your realtors license tomorrow, would your lifestyle change?

[bullaculla]

RE listing photography and architectural photography are two totally different things. I have shot quite a few new hotels and hotel rooms, but i know I will never be a high paid interior/architectural photographer. Not enough patience to set up lights and change them around :D And being in Hawaii, they always want the ocean and diamond head to show up in the windows.
thats why photojournalistic wedding photography suites me so well :) (doing it for over 12 years) You gotta be patient for weddings too, but thats more like holding the camera in position and waiting for the right moment.

[Efliernz]

We got our first shoot from our website today. They needed straight-down plan shots as they were trying to work out the best place to build the replacement house. They asked $$, I said what our package provided and within 24 hours we had it done. Paid up front (her choice) and we don't hand her the disc until tomorrow.
Due to the height required I stitched 3 shots together in Photoshop. I have spent 3 hours on post-processing tonight (shot in RAW - provided Tiff and Jpeg). Costing must reflect this time.

I was approached today about a providing a DVD showing the build progress of a street race circuit. They want the circuit videoed (by car) and the aerial photos interlaced at specific points thru the video. I'm still costing this but video processing takes lots of time - and the quote must reflect this. I'm not so bored where I work for free!!! this job has lots of inner-city flying and therefore a high risk element. Another reason not to do it too cheap.(my last bad landing cost me $1400 - my insurance is 3rd party as no one will insure AP equip in my country while flying).

[Tonystott]

Pete, the video is in addition to the time-lapse? I would be making sure that each and every flight offers you a good return, enough to fund equipment repairs if the law of averages catches up with you. I reckon the Supercar machine can afford it!

[Efliernz]

Hi Tony
The video work is separate to the time-lapse we are doing.
So far we shot photos only at multiple locations with the heli as separate sites. They all require safety setup which all takes time. The video work will require a similar setup with additional edditing time.
Do you charge for the editing hours separately as an additional processing cost?

[Tonystott]

Pete, I would charge post-production as a separate item unless you exceed a pre-agreed level (say 2 hour post-production vs 1 hour on-site or similar). This has the double advantage of giving you an out if the job becomes really big in post, while educating your client that there is lots more than what is seen on site. (I also like to make the aside that the massive list of crew in the feature film are not just there for fun)