Finally maidened my 600 3D Vbar

[Taipan]

Bought the kit & lipos nearly 2 months ago and had to wait over a month for the motor to arrive. The easiest part was building the heli itself! It's a very simple design. I prolly spent more time soldering than anything else!

Had a bit of trouble with setting the subtrims in the Vbar software for the servo horns to be 90 degs. This kept changing all the time! Until I realised the gyros were preventing the swash from centering so had to bump the Tx sticks until it did so or cycle the Rx power. Also the tail servo doesn't centre after you move the stick. Again cycled power and was very careful not to bump the gyro. Would be nice if the Vbar had an option to turn off the gyros & centre the servos for setting up!

Yesterday first time out took my time spooling up very carefully and moving the sticks as had no idea how it would hover without a flybar. The tail was way sensitive so reduced the rates & upped the expo in my radio. Lifted off, boy was it a handful! Hovered for just 2 mins as breaking in new lipos.

This was all with the default Vbar settings, I just played with the rates in my radio. Next hover reduced cyclic rates from 100% to 60%, better. Got more used to the way it hovered and stabbed the collective a bit, it really jumps!

The first 3 hovers were with fixed throttle mode 0, 60, 60 throttle curve. Even at this low setting headspeed was 2220rpm! Used this mode to make sure it could hover then wanted to enable governor mode & use idle-up as that's where everything's gotta be dialled in.

4th time out, time to find the rpm it wants to spin at in gov mode. Left it in fixed throttle mode & zeroed the throttle curve & set collective to 0 deg. Bumped up throttle curve slowly. 20% gave 1470rpm, 50% = 2170rpm, 60% = 2220 rpm, 70% = 2320rpm & 75% = 2360rpm. Around 75% is where the gov wants to be. Will go for 70% approx 2300rpm.

Last time out, ESC in high gov mode. Same thing - up throttle curve untill it matches rpm in 70% fixed mode and use this value as flat line in idle-up. Bumped up throttle curve & the tail abruptly kicked BIG time. So hard a link popped off a tail grip & was bloody hard to pop back on! Stripped main gear in 3 places! I had the ESC on gov high gain 80%. The manuals I had were conflicting, one said big helis like Logo 10 & up use high gain. Another said low gain 16% was used on an Ion-X?? Reset gain to low & ordered some more main gears!

Need to work on the Vbar settings, it doesn't fly anything like a flybar heli yet. Will read up more & try Danny J's settings.

My set-up;

Logo 600 3D Vbar
Neu 1912H/1Y 825KV motor on 13T pinion
(153T herringbone main gear, ratio = 11.77:1)
CC 85HV ESC governed to 2300rpm
FP EVO 25 10S 3700's
Radix 600mm mains & 95mm tails
+-14 degs pitch
9Z and R149DP Rx
S9451's on CCPM
S9256 on tail
FP Evolite 2s 1345 Rx lipo
Align 6A reg for the meantime

AUW 3.5kgs/7.7lb exactly.

Can't wait to dial this puppy in and throw it some stick!

[Taipan]

Btw could some of you guys with 1912H/1Y's please post your CC 85HV settings like what gov gain you're running, what start-ups etc? Maybe even post the actual CC files so I can see your settings in the CastleLink software.

[DebianDog]

Cool! :smokin:

I think the Vbar system is going to REALLY take off when you can share models setups and load them to the helicopter via bluetooth.

[NTM]

Do yourself a favour and buy a jazz esc. The cc85 hv governor doesn`t have a happy medium, it`s always either giving the tail a bit of wag or is too mushy.

Also when you're setting the servo positions with the v-bar, use the test mode. It does turn off the gyros and center the servos.
When doing actual flight trimming of the swash servos on the first flight, use the classic mode rather than extended. Change back to extended once it`s trimmed.

- use DJ`s cyclic parameters
-open the expert menu and turn the servo smoothers on
-make sure you have the aof filter
-select ic sensor in the expert tail menu

It`ll fly pretty nice just like that.

[Team-MAYHEM]

could you provide a link to get the AOF filter.

What does AOF stand for anyways?

thanks

[cptsnoopy]

disclaimer: this method worked for me. please feel free to correct any errors that you may notice and add anything you think or know will help someone setup their V-Stabi. This is not everything needed but is a rough outline for setting up the main blade pitch angles.

The simple setup. (???)

Set you Transmitter up for simple 90 degree CCPM so you will be able to use the throttle cut feature and make sure all subtrims and regular trims are at zero. Also leave your travel limits at 100% for now.

Do a factory reset on the overview screen. Then go to the rudder screen and do a reset on that screen also.

Make sure the Transmitter and "Live" agree. up is up and right is right etc... reverse channels in transmitter as required.

Make sure that the gyros are reacting in the correct direction. The swash should try to stay level with the horizon as you pitch nose up and nose down or roll left or right. reverse on "overview" screen as required.

To keep from damaging your rudder servo, make sure the correct rudder servo is set on the overview screen. Then goto the "rudder" screen and set the limiter to keep your servo from binding at the max limits. You can then let it do whatever it wants while you setup the swash without putting extra strain on the rudder servo and linkages.

Set the software in "Test" mode and put your servo arms on the servos as close to 90 degrees as possible. You should have the rear servo out when doing this to make it much easier.

Set your subtrims on the sliders that are labeled channel 1, channel 2, channel 3 in the "servo" screen to get your servo arms set to 90 degrees.

Install the rear servo (with link rod attached) and the aileron servos if not already installed.

Connect the swash to the servo links and verify that the swash is level. It should be if the links are all the correct length. You will need to have the anti-torque bar installed at this time.

Connect the Blade grip to swash links if not already done. With the system in test mode and the servos centered, lengthen the blade grip to swash links as needed to get zero degrees of main blade pitch.

Now you will need to go back to the "live" screen and record on a piece of paper the values for full travel of your collective, aileron and elevator. Mine where approximately 1600, some were slightly less and some slightly more. You may need to be out of "test" mode to do this but I don't remember for sure.

Then back to the "servo" screen and in "test" mode. using the collective slider, set your max positive pitch that you recorded from the "live" screen and then adjust the collective range slider (NOTE: this is the slider that is in the upper right part of the "servo" screen, just to the right of the subtrim sliders) to get the pitch you want to use. I set mine for 13 degrees. Then verify that you have very near the same amount of negative pitch when the collective slider is moved to the max recorded value for negative collective. If your readings are off quite a bit, verify that the method you are using to record blade angles is accurate. Not easy to do without a fly-bar.

You can set the max values that you recorded on the elevator and aileron sliders at the same time to see if you are getting any binding against the main shaft with the swash. I don't know how accurate this will be but it may give you an idea of how close it will be. I did not change from the factory reset settings and it seems fine. Also you can then run the collective slider up and down to the max value you recorded while the elevator and aileron are cranked over and see how bad the swash moves at the extreme limits of travel. It won't be perfect as the servos run out of travel before the values are reached. I am using 17mm servo arm distance.

Take the software out of live mode and set your transmitter for zero pitch. You should have zero pitch at the blades or very near so.

Be sure that the software is in classic mode for your maiden flight. All trimming is done in classic mode.

I found that factory reset settings worked just fine for the maiden. after basic trimming you can start fiddling around with the other settings...

good luck.

[Flybar-less]

CCs need medium gov gain.
25% start power
Current Insensitive
8 spool up
High Gov

[OICU812]

Taipan, according to your blurb it does not sound like you did this, this was mentioned by ct...


"Set the software in "Test" mode and put your servo arms on the servos as close to 90 degrees as possible. You should have the rear servo out when doing this to make it much easier.

Set your subtrims on the sliders that are labeled channel 1, channel 2, channel 3 in the "servo" screen to get your servo arms set to 90 degrees.
"

[uragano47812]

I have set to 90° servo arms in normal mode not in test mode because it is not writen on manual... I have to do again in test mode? Even the pitch range?

Is the method metioned by ct.. the right one?

[cptsnoopy]

I have set to 90° servo arms in normal mode not in test mode because it is not writen on manual... I have to do again in test mode? Even the pitch range?

Is the method metioned by ct.. the right one?

This method worked for me. There are probably other good ways to setup your pitch range.

If you already setup your pitch without using "test" mode then you should at least check it one time to see if it is correct. If you check it and it is not correct then you should fix it. Just my 2 cents. :)

[Wenlock]

I think there may be more to centring the servos than just using Test Mode. If you centre your servos in Test Mode, they may not remain centred when you turn Test Mode off. Test Mode is only correct if your transmitter sends correct "centre" signals for the cyclic, collective and rudder when the sticks are central.

Using Live Mode I can see that my FF9 sends all 4 channels slightly off-centre when the sticks are centred (according to the V-Bar unit, that is). So if I set up my servos in Test Mode, then when I switch out of Test Mode the servos will move to a new position.

When you're flying you're relying on your Tx to generate the servo centre position, so surely the transmitter should be your reference?

The V-Bar manual states that all transmitter sub-trims should be zero, but maybe the correct procedure is to use Test Mode to centre the servos, then use the transmitter's sub-trims (while monitoring the TX output in Live Mode) to ensure the transmitter is sending a correct centre trim when the sticks are central?

[cptsnoopy]

I think there may be more to centring the servos than just using Test Mode. If you centre your servos in Test Mode, they may not remain centred when you turn Test Mode off. Test Mode is only correct if your transmitter sends correct "centre" signals for the cyclic, collective and rudder when the sticks are central.

Using Live Mode I can see that my FF9 sends all 4 channels slightly off-centre when the sticks are centred (according to the V-Bar unit, that is). So if I set up my servos in Test Mode, then when I switch out of Test Mode the servos will move to a new position.

When you're flying you're relying on your Tx to generate the servo centre position, so surely the transmitter should be your reference?

The V-Bar manual states that all transmitter sub-trims should be zero, but maybe the correct procedure is to use Test Mode to centre the servos, then use the transmitter's sub-trims (while monitoring the TX output in Live Mode) to ensure the transmitter is sending a correct centre trim when the sticks are central?

I found that both my evo12 and my DX-7 were centered just the same as test mode without any need for changes at the tx. If there is a significant difference I don't think that doing anything at the tx is a good idea. I think you may want to ask ulrich or RV what to do about that in the V-Stabi forum. Those are the ones that say do not ever use subtrim or trim in the transmitter. http://www.vstabi.de/ (click on forum and then on questions for the English part of the site.) These guys are very helpful, the only drawback is that they need to translate to English so it can be hard to understand sometimes.

[OICU812]

I know it is not written in manual. But if you think about it, it makes sense to do it with the servos forced to zero and not moving. Bring that every movement is on a gyro for the swash there is no way to accurately do it otherwise.

[Klinger]

In the new swashplate setup wizard it does state to use sub-trims to adjust the centre position from the Tx to nuetral as seen by vstabi. I just did this for the hell of it and to check i was getting equal and enough throws. I found i was getting uneven throws when the nuetral positions were out and once centred throws became equal. I think it's really only trim their worried about as v-stabi zero's axis on powerup and any trim change in tx from last flight is nulled.

[cptsnoopy]

In the new swashplate setup wizard it does state to use sub-trims to adjust the centre position from the Tx to nuetral as seen by vstabi. I just did this for the hell of it and to check i was getting equal and enough throws. I found i was getting uneven throws when the nuetral positions were out and once centred throws became equal. I think it's really only trim their worried about as v-stabi zero's axis on powerup and any trim change in tx from last flight is nulled.

Dohh, I guess I need to get the wizard and look it over.

thank you for the correction.
:)

[Wenlock]

I think you may want to ask ulrich or RV what to do about that in the V-Stabi forum. Those are the ones that say do not ever use subtrim or trim in the transmitter. http://www.vstabi.de/ (click on forum and then on questions for the English part of the site.) These guys are very helpful, the only drawback is that they need to translate to English so it can be hard to understand sometimes.


I was about to post this question on the V-Bar forum when I noticed Shawn has already asked the same thing in the "Wizard" thread. I'll hold fire and see how the Mikado guys answer to Shawn.

[Taipan]

Thanks for your replies guys!

Hope I can get the 85HV to work well otherwise will get 55-10-32. I chose the HV as though the Jazz's current limits to be too low. Do not want thermal cut-outs, period!

Another thing I noticed after hovering was my Radix mains were swept forward slightly, about 10mm in front of where they would normally be straight out. Dunno why this is?? Read somewhere Vbar requires blades with equal lead/lag balancing so there is no undue forces on the servos.

[Klinger]

I think Uli recommends Radix blades say over V's. In testing servo loads with an eagletree i found the servo's averaged around 1 amp draw running 9451's with some GCT Extreme blades i had on at the time which equated to under 100 mah used per flight. With my 1900 flight pack i know i can safetly fly out all my batteries with plenty of reserve in the Rx pack!

[Taipan]

Is this Danny J's setup to use or is there a newer one? http://www.vstabi.de/forum1/read.php?6,855

[Taipan]

Just removed my main blades to make setting the mesh of new main gear easier. The blade bolts are bent!!! Yikes. What about you guys? During rpm testing for governor mode the max my Logo did was 2360rpm. Surely the bolts shouldn't have bent especially if others are using the same ones at 2500rpm etc.

[cptsnoopy]

Just a wild guess but did you use both 1mm spacers for each blade? I have had my blades off a couple of times during the 15 or 20 flights it has on it and I have not seen any sign of bending blade bolts. I normally run it at around 2100 but it has maxed out around 2350 for a few seconds until I dialed it down.

[Taipan]

Yup, used both spacers. Was a ***** to get them in but makes it nice & square.

IMO the Mikado blade bolt shoulders are too short, they terminate around the centre of the grip. I have some other bolts whose shoulders reach all the way in a few mm into the bottom of the grip but they weren't the best quality. So not gonna use them, will get some high strength ones instead.

[cptsnoopy]

Very strange for sure. I know I have my blades off at least three or four times. I noticed the last couple of times I put them on the spacers were easier to get in. Maybe it is getting a little looser in there or the bearing grease is getting on them and making it easier I don't know. I will be taking them out again soon to verify the bolts are ok.

[OICU812]

The grips will open up abit after use, I found this on all versions of the Mikado helis, they will not get sloppy thuogh, just abit more opened up than new.

[Taipan]

Followed NTM's advice & changed my Vbar set up. Put new main gear on. About 65% around the gear had no backlash, the other 35% had a tiny bit - say 0.05mm which I thought ok. Also ground the boom to belt pulley just in case.

Bolted on blades with Hirobo Freya hardened blade bolts. Left speedy in fixed throttle mode as didn't know how new set-up would fly. 0, 70, 70 throttle curve which gave 2300rpm, spot on. It hovered so much better! Except for elevator which kept turning after moving stick back to centre but not much.

Plugged in laptop and and clicked on elevator keeps turning button a few times. Put speedy in gov high mode with low gain. Throttle curve flat zero, added a few clicks throttle & tail kicked hard. Stripped the main gear AGAIN!! My mate said it didn't sound like gov mode was engaging properly & said try going straight into flat 20% curve to start with.

Put on my 3rd & last main gear. The meshing was the same as above. Flicked straight into idle-up 20% flat. Spooled up fine, problem solved. Bumped up curve to 65% flat which gave 2300rpm in gov mode, yeah baby! Did some hovering circuits and some pitch pumping, it really wants to go.

3rd time out to the flight line for some FFF and soft 3D if it went well. The FF circuits went well, behaved like a flybar heli. Need to play with my cyclic & tail rates but was happy it was flying properly for now. Came down to hover & slammed full pitch. Took off like a missile then made a loud noise and the HS washed off! Immediately brought it back down. NO teeth left on the main gear!!! WTF??

Wasn't too upset cos it was ballistic. Looked at the meshing & thought maybe the motor pulled so much torque it backed off. After all only the top half of the teeth were gone, not all.

Today I took a closer look. The previous main gear had some teeth missing but the same amount too, only the top half. Also it took a fair bit of grunt to loosen the motor bolts so no way it moved. I grabbed the end of the shaft - it's a Neu and has a looong shaft. Was able to move it a bit, no there is no play in the bearings but the top of the motor moved in the opposite direction, not even a millimetre but enough to affect the mesh. The fully stripped gear is slightly cone shaped as if the pinion moved in an arc. Looking at the less stripped one, looks like it's normal for only the top half to get ground away even if motor is fully meshed in - ground ALL the way in is unlikely. Motor shaft would need to be seriously clamped down for that to happen.

Gotta get the counter bearing for sure along with some more main gears!