New to Helis... X9303 mixing problems...

[R1R 7humbs]

Well I knew the electronics would be the tough part of the building process, I just didn't expect this much trouble. I purchased the X9303 after reading several great reviews on the quality and ease of use, the quality is great...

I went through the manual step by step. I erased the model memory, created a new model, named it, chose heli for model type, 3 servo 120 swash.... The problem is that the radio has setup strange "mixes" by default. I used Real Flight to see what was going on (I also know of the Monitor feature built into the remote).

Here's what it's doing by default:
Left stick
- Throttle up / blade pitch direction (i.e. moving the stick up and down):
+ controls: Throttle, Roll, Pitch and Knob (chs. 3,1,2,6)
- Yaw (i.e. moving the stick left and right):
+ controls: Yaw (ch. 4)

Right stick
- moving the stick up and down:
+ roll, pitch, knob (chs. 1,2,6)
- moving the stick left and right:
+ roll, knob (chs. 1,6)

If anyone could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it. I've gone through the manual twice and I can't fix it.

Thanks

[TMoore]

If you are using any radio with a sim, CCPM mixing doesn't work. The sim doesn't need it and won't respond as you think it should.

TM

[Danal Estes]

Tmoore is correct. For the realflight (and all sims), always use "90 deg" or "conventional" or just don't change it after you reset that model memory.

120 Deg CCPM is for helis that have 3 servos controlling the swash... the "mixing" you are seeing is correct. You don't even need realflight to see this; you can also see the multiple channels moving when you move a given stick on the servo monitor screen in your transmitter. Lots of things should move around!

The [MONITOR] screen is very helpful to figure out what your TX does in different situations, and to help determine if a given setup problem is in the configuration of the TX, or the RX/Connectors/Servos/Links/Whatever... that screen really tells you what the TX is doing. For example:

When set properly for the sim, and assuming your TX is Mode 2 (and nearly all in the USA are mode 2), only one channel will move in the monitor screen when you move any single control on the right stick. When you move the left stick side/side, only one will move (rudder). When you move the left stick up/down, you will see two channels move: Pitch and throttle. Again, this is when set properly for the sim.

[R1R 7humbs]

Thanks

My brother is going to bring the heli to the local hobby store to show it to their expert. It's not just Real Flight that has the problem, the actual helicopter components don't work correctly either. I've heard once you get the hang of this it's not a problem to set things up but as a noob, this seems really complex for what it needs to do.

The control curves are straightforward, etc but for some reason the channel mixing is impossible. I know what i want to do... I want the pitch servo to mix with the throttle servo and at a certain point I want the throttle servo to stop for a head speed of around 1850rpm and the pitch servo to stop at what would give me +- 12 degrees. I understand the concept from using the simulator, where I want the head speed to reach 1850 with no more than 50% of the throttle stick travel (in normal flight mode) then the pitch servo will kick in past the 50% mark to generate lift. I can't even get this configured using the TX menu... If one of the manufacturers was smart they'd add a USB port and allow us to configure the remote via Linux, Windows or Mac with a nice UI.

[TMoore]

Thanks

If one of the manufacturers was smart they'd add a USB port and allow us to configure the remote via Linux, Windows or Mac with a nice UI.

It's not necessary and quite honestly was done years ago and no one wanted it when we did it. Besides, dude, what would you do different with a PC hooked up to the TX?

There is no mixing going on with the throttle and collective. These are separate functions. The channel mixing seems impossible because you have CCPM turned on in the radio. Danal had it right, go into the swash menu and turn off all swash mixing and the radio will work the sim just fine. What you want is the aileron, pitch and elevator channels to be separate and they will be with the swash mode in NORMAL mode.

Once you do this simple thing, you may then configure the pitch and throttle curves to suit.

TM

[R1R 7humbs]

It's not necessary and quite honestly was done years ago and no one wanted it when we did it. Besides, dude, what would you do different with a PC hooked up to the TX?

There is no mixing going on with the throttle and collective. These are separate functions. The channel mixing seems impossible because you have CCPM turned on in the radio. Danal had it right, go into the swash menu and turn off all swash mixing and the radio will work the sim just fine. What you want is the aileron, pitch and elevator channels to be separate and they will be with the swash mode in NORMAL mode.

Once you do this simple thing, you may then configure the pitch and throttle curves to suit.

TM
I understand the sim / swash ccpm.

As for a nicer UI, I was thinking more of a "hands off" baseline setup. Where you could choose from base line configs for normal flight, s1 and s2, etc. That way you'd know that the TX was programmed correctly and there would be a few different isometric views of a sample heli, that would show what parts should move for the given programmed inputs... That way a noob could compare this with what they've done with their real heli. If something doesn't match up, then that would mean they have something hooked up incorrectly. Even reversing a servo could be done via this interface if there were templates that understood the layout of various models, like the Trex 450, 600 or Hirobo, Avant, etc...

I just think the manual from JR blows. Maybe it's a terminology problem, so I looked stuff up and pasted it below... I do know how the surfaces of the heli move from using G3 and it's very basic.

Stuff I looked up:
The collective control raises the entire swash plate assembly as a unit. This has the effect of changing the pitch of both blades simultaneously.
The cyclic control pushes one side of the swash plate assembly upward or downward. This has the effect of changing the pitch of the blades unevenly depending on where they are in the rotation. The result of the cyclic control is that the rotor's wings have a greater angle of attack (and therefore more lift) on one side of the helicopter and a lesser angle of attack (and less lift) on the opposite side. The unbalanced lift causes the helicopter to tip and move laterally.


The swash plate assembly has two primary roles:
Under the direction of the collective control, the swash plate assembly can change the angle of both blades simultaneously. Doing this increases or decreases the lift that the main rotor supplies to the vehicle, allowing the helicopter to gain or lose altitude.
Under the direction of the cyclic control, the swash plate assembly can change the angle of the blades individually as they revolve. This allows the helicopter to move in any direction around a 360-degree circle, including forward, backward, left and right.When I look at the heli in G3 I can see the picth changing simultaneously when I move the throttle/collective stick up and down. This is what gives the heli lift along with the rotation of the blades so I don't know why or how the heli can fly without mixing those servos. If they didn't mix, wouldn't I need a slider for the throttle, and the two thumbsticks?

[TMoore]

I understand the sim / swash ccpm.

As for a nicer UI, I was thinking more of a "hands off" baseline setup. Where you could choose from base line configs for normal flight, s1 and s2, etc. That way you'd know that the TX was programmed correctly and there would be a few different isometric views of a sample heli, that would show what parts should move for the given programmed inputs... That way a noob could compare this with what they've done with their real heli. If something doesn't match up, then that would mean they have something hooked up incorrectly. Even reversing a servo could be done via this interface if there were templates that understood the layout of various models, like the Trex 450, 600 or Hirobo, Avant, etc...

I just think the manual from JR blows. Maybe it's a terminology problem, so I looked stuff up and pasted it below... I do know how the surfaces of the heli move from using G3 and it's very basic.

Stuff I looked up:
The collective control raises the entire swash plate assembly as a unit. This has the effect of changing the pitch of both blades simultaneously.
The cyclic control pushes one side of the swash plate assembly upward or downward. This has the effect of changing the pitch of the blades unevenly depending on where they are in the rotation. The result of the cyclic control is that the rotor's wings have a greater angle of attack (and therefore more lift) on one side of the helicopter and a lesser angle of attack (and less lift) on the opposite side. The unbalanced lift causes the helicopter to tip and move laterally.


The swash plate assembly has two primary roles:
Under the direction of the collective control, the swash plate assembly can change the angle of both blades simultaneously. Doing this increases or decreases the lift that the main rotor supplies to the vehicle, allowing the helicopter to gain or lose altitude.
Under the direction of the cyclic control, the swash plate assembly can change the angle of the blades individually as they revolve. This allows the helicopter to move in any direction around a 360-degree circle, including forward, backward, left and right.When I look at the heli in G3 I can see the picth changing simultaneously when I move the throttle/collective stick up and down. This is what gives the heli lift along with the rotation of the blades so I don't know why or how the heli can fly without mixing those servos. If they didn't mix, wouldn't I need a slider for the throttle, and the two thumbsticks?

I'm not sure you really understand the sim/CCPM issue based on the response.

UI's and templates are two different things. Doing templates is tricky because not everyone wants the same setup and quite honestly, there have been plenty of setups posted on the various forums to suit just about anyones flying style so I don't see the mfg's doing that either.

As far as the manuals are concerned, they are all just the way you describe. They are not meant to take a modeler and teach you heli basics, they are meant to be a radio resource and that's it. I wish they were more but they aren't.

You're confusing mixing with what you do with the sticks as a normal routine of flying. If you move the collective/throttle stick and then move the cyclic stick, functions get mixed but you are doing the mixing. Collective and throttle are slaved to the same stick, this is not mixing. By definition, mixing two or more components gets you one combined output but that can't be here because you have a throttle and a collective output vis a vis two separate servos on a mechanical collective machine. You're confusing technical descriptions of each individual function with what actually happens with the model as a consequence of you actually flying the machine. As was stated before, set the radio up in the NORMAL swash mode and then work from there.

You're making this way too complicated.

TM

[Pinecone]

Go to the Finelss Tech Room section. Find the thread on the Trex 450 and download the videos called CCPM 1 and CCPM 2 and Pitch/Throttle Curves 101.

They will show you what is going on.

For a CCPM helicopter you need those mixes to make the heli fly.

To control how much throttle there is a which stick position, you set up Pitch Curves.

Which heli are you running? Try posting in that section about what people are running as throttle and pitch curves.

If electric the following will get you close (7 point curves for 9303, Inh = Inhibit which lets the radio draw a straight line from one point to the next specified point))

Normal:
Throttle Curve: 0 - 45- 65 - 80 - Inh - Inh - 100
Pitch Curve: 40 - Inh - Inh - 50 - Inh - Inh - 100

Stunt 1:
Throttle: 100 - Inh - Inh - 90 - Inh - Inh - 100
Pitch: 0 - Inh - Inh - 50 - Inh - Inh - 100

Stunt 2:
Throttle 100 - Inh - Inh -100 - Inh - Inh - 100
Pitch: 0 - Inh - Inh - 50 - Inh - Inh - 100

This assumes you have done the mechanical setup properly first.

[R1R 7humbs]

Thanks TMoore Danal Estes and pinecone,
It ended up being a servo reversing problem. Being unfamiliar with this I didn't know which servos to reverse and the local heli expert fixed this.

He also helped with the pitch, throttle and cyclic curves to soften the responses and because the head speed govenor isn't configured yet, he limited the throttle input to 80%. Also, the pitch to throttle position has been setup so the heli has 50% power and 0deg of pitch (with a max of 10deg +and- pitch). It should begin to hover just past the half way point of the collective stick.

Thanks again for your help with this,
7humbs (http://rankoneracing.com)

[Pinecone]

WATCH THE VIDEOS.

Finless tells you how to do this so when you set it up again or another heli you don't have to run to the "expert."

But easy answer, move the collective stick up and down, reverse the servo that isn't going the same way as the other two, don't worry about which way they are going.

THEN go to the SWASH menu and change the values from + to - (same number value) to first get the swash moving the proper direction for collective, then roll, then elevator.

[R1R 7humbs]

WATCH THE VIDEOS.

Finless tells you how to do this so when you set it up again or another heli you don't have to run to the "expert."

But easy answer, move the collective stick up and down, reverse the servo that isn't going the same way as the other two, don't worry about which way they are going.

THEN go to the SWASH menu and change the values from + to - (same number value) to first get the swash moving the proper direction for collective, then roll, then elevator.
Thanks again.

I don't want to ever need to run to an expert for help, it's something I've never done before for RC stuff. For something like this though, even if I had figured out the correct servo settings, I still wanted someone with flying experience to take a look.

I think some people don't appreciate just how much destruction a heli like the 600N can inflict on someone or something. I don't want a carbonfiber sword going through me....

[th3tick]

I understand your sentiment, and why you wanted to get someone to check it out first, however...

pinecone has it exactly right. Even a n00b like me set up my 450 and 600 right the first time following those videos. Once you understand the principles, the actual setup is pretty straight-forward. Finless's videos explain it well. I watched them once, then again while doing the setup. Both helis took off and flew quite well...

John

[R1R 7humbs]

I understand your sentiment, and why you wanted to get someone to check it out first, however...

pinecone has it exactly right. Even a n00b like me set up my 450 and 600 right the first time following those videos. Once you understand the principles, the actual setup is pretty straight-forward. Finless's videos explain it well. I watched them once, then again while doing the setup. Both helis took off and flew quite well...

John
The problems came up because my brother built the heli and I'm going to fly it.... So I spent some time last night to understand how the mechanical parts are actually working. Now I see how the swashplate actually works, etc... don't ask why I didn't do that to begin with (it would have saved a trip to the expert).... I have a short attention span and tolerance for building. My brother loves to build and doesn't mind sitting and working on it for a few hours. He'd be almost as happy to see it sitting on a shelf completed as he would be seeing it hovering.