Help with my flight times

[Cralis]

I have the CF Pro version, with the bigger of the two stock engines.

I have 2 2100 20C (Revolution - from FMA Direct) packs.

I fly for up to 4 minutes.... slow hovering flights.

Pitch is -4 to +11, but I'm usually in the slow clumb and hover area.

Throttle is something like 0, 40, 65, 80, 100

In my last flight, my packs seemed EXTREMELY hot.. and possibly puffed, but since then, they seem normal. Might have been an error in view on my part... do puffed packs go down again??

Anyway, put them on the balance charger an hour later when they were cold, and no errors.. all seemed OK, but I had made a mistake taking them down to 6% :(

If I got 3600 packs, would that make a vast difference in my flight times? Will be happy with up to 7 minutes...

Also, are those curves OK for gentle flight?

I don't have holes in my canopy... would that help? If so, where should the holes be. I have the stock fiberglass canopy...

Hope I can get some help.

Merry Christmas!

[mjdee14]

I got mine a while ago but santa brought me some Bling for it and and Eagletree V3 with sensors for testing.

I thought I had the 1100 motor and it came with 2100 18c lipos that puffed up every time i hoverd it in the front yard, I only have the 850 motor !! I bought 2 2500 and 3300 polyquest 25c batts from Hobby Lobby and they work "Much" better...stay cool and no puffing. I really think 18 - 20c is marginal...

Get some good 25 -30c lipos and get as big as you can aford (that will fit) and I think you will be much happier. It seems on these helis that you will either buy the good now...or latter.

I can use he 18c on my ECo8 with no problem, so they are not wasted.

I also have a new Z20A motor coming and everyone raves about the Z20 & 30 motors, running cool and having good flight times.

i don't have enough flight time on my Hurri to make a good judgement on time, but
I don't see too many people saying they get 7 minutes.... 5 - 6 sems to be the norm, but a lot of the pilots are in to hard 3d. And definately not with the 1100 kv on 2100 20 c lipos.

The polyq 3300 fit nicely under the stock canopy and balance well with the long tail boom.

You do not need +11 deg for gentle flying...I would back it down to +9...you may be really pulling high amps if you give it high pitch...the - 4 is ok if all your going to do is gentle flying.

[Cralis]

Thanks mjdee... This new motor sounds good... Z20... I don;t need the 1100 right now.. Just knobbing my packs... so might see where I can get one... Is it easy to fit?

Will also drop the +11 pitch down a degree.

Thanks for that!

[mjdee14]

I'm sure you have read most of the threads by now, but It seems the stock Gaui 1100 kv motor really sucks up the power and gets pretty hot in the process.

I had a hard time deciding on getting the Z20 or Z30 motor, but I will never do hard 3D and the 3d guys rave about the Z30....several more gentler flyers have stated the Z20 gaave good flight times, was kinder on lipos, and could be geared to do mild 3D if wanted, so i went for te Z20.

It has a fan built in so it runs much cooler than the stock Gaui motors.

i gor mine ffrom Flyinghobby see link below,,,went for te 980kv.

http://flying-hobby.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=18_76&products_id=1018

[worldofmaya]

Hi!
I would check you rpm. What pinion do you use?
-Klaus

[Jactor]

Hi Cralis

I agree with Klaus - definitely check your head speed see link below it will be really high and working your packs very hard if you have the standard 42 tooth gear on the front shaft. I also have the gaui 1100kv 1500W motor and 75amp esc in my kit (standard plastic frame model). I'm only using 2 2250mAh packs and wanted to try and be gentle on them while I'm learning so I swapped out the 42 tooth front gear with a 61 tooth (rear or main shaft gear) I have now also changed my motor pinion from 15 to 16 tooth this gearing gives me a max headspeed of around 1890rpm @ 95% efficiency this gives me around 5 & 1/2 minutes of figure 8s and mild forward flight. My batteries only get warm from a flight about the same as in my trex and I put back around 1450mAh when charging them. Once I need more headspead I'll change the gearing and buy bigger capacity batteries probably around 3300mAh

http://www.readyheli.com/Online_Headspeed_Calculator_s/81.htm

[Kepler]

I was finding the Gaui 1100 kv motor needed 35 amps just to hover on 15 tooth pinion and about 28 amps on a 14 tooth. on the 15 tooth I was hitting 85 amps on a hard climb out at around 11 degrees pitch. Thats around 2000 watts of gear stripping power. The Gaui 1100 kv motor is a seriously strong motor but you pay for it and 25C packs are an absolute must. Even 25C 2200 packs are a bit marginal in my opinion.

A 4 minute flight on a set of 2200 mah packs is an average 30 to 35 amps constant from the pack. Not too many packs rated at 20C can handle this without being seriously compromized.

Keep in mind some of the C ratings placed on the cheaper brand packs are very optimistic. My rule of thumb is take 5C off for a more realistic figure.

In regards to flight time, the combo of a Hyperion 3700 mah LVX pack, Z20 motor, and 14 tooth pinion is a safe 9 minutes of general flying and a bit of light 3D. I personally like the Hyperion 4250 mah LCX packs. These are rated at a true 18C and can handle 76 amps constant. I get a safe 10 minute out of these with the same setup. Both types of packs weigh the same (300 grams per 3S pack) but the LCX are cheaper and last longer. Advantage of the LVX pack is that they hold their voltage peak right through the flight where you can feel the performance drop off slightly over the last few minutes the LCX packs. This is only an issue if you are doing hard flying towards the end of the pack which most likely isnt going to be the case.

[Pinecone]

You throttle curve is a bit low, and lower headspeed means more pitch to hover, and high pitch at low speed sucks power.

I run 0 - 65 - 80 - 90 - 100. With the stock 890kV motor, I pull about 20 amps at hover.

[Cralis]

Thanks guys.

Kepler... 9 minutes flight - that gives me wood! :) Are you serious?? I'm now trying to find a local supplier (South Africa) or else it's coming from FlyingHobby. Do you know which pinion comes with my heli? I have the 1100 engine as stock with it.. I think it's the 15, but not sure.

Pinecone, thanks. I will up my curve... worried I'm going to rape the batteries... but I guess it's worth a try. As for the puffing, if a pack puffs, does it stay puffed?

[Cralis]

wrt the Z20, is the 980kv one the one to go for? I mean, it has the power to handle the EP550, right? And will give best flight times? And can I use the same BEC as the one I am using with the 1100?

[istandalone]

i'd like to know too about a puffed pack, whether it'll go back down on it's own sometimes? i know if it's severly damaged it'll stay puffed (like the marshmellows!), but will sometimes a lipo puff and go back to normal?

[mjdee14]

i'd like to know too about a puffed pack, whether it'll go back down on it's own sometimes? i know if it's severly damaged it'll stay puffed (like the marshmellows!), but will sometimes a lipo puff and go back to normal?

I have had my 18c 2200 lipos puff up twice when hovering the Hurri...both times they went back down after they cooled off.

So, yes...it may happen.

25c 2500 packs barely get warm.

[worldofmaya]

Hi!
The Z20 has less power but much better cooling than the 1100kv Gaui and better Performance than the 890kv from Gaui. But you can get pretty good results with the 1100kv Gaui engine. You just need the right setup. For example here in Austria you get the 1100kv engine in every kit but with an Gaui 50A Esc and 15 teeth pinion. This setup is okay when using 5s. For 6s you need 12 teeth. If you're using the Gaui 75A Esc or something similar you need for sure pretty good Lipos...
-Klaus

[Kepler]

I agree with Klaus on where the Z20 fits in as far as power goes. Must say though, I havent seen a 12 tooth pinion before. Smallest I have seen is a 13 tooth.

[mjdee14]

try the headspeed calc below...it is ONLY for the 550 and much better than some of the others in my opinion. with the Z20 and a 14t pinion at 90% eff I should be in the 2000 hs range....if the motor is more like 80 - 85% eff then we are looking at 1800 - 1900 range. Still more suited for my flying abilities...and if it runs cooler and longer, I'll be a happy camper...

http://www.ezfly.se/hscalc.htm

[Kepler]

Sounds like a good starting point

[Cralis]

Wait, so now I am confused. Getting the Z20 (980) engine, as well as the 14T engine pinion is a very good step in increasing flight times? Then, upgrading my packs to 3300 sized packs is the next good step? And the Z20 IS sufficient for the CF EP550?

[worldofmaya]

The question is, if it's enough for you and your flight style? If you want more power take a Z30. But you'll get less flight time. For for a non-hardcore-3d style you will be happy with an Z20...
@Kepler: My local shop takes a 12T from an Quick. There are quit a lot with this setup!
-klaus

[Kepler]

@Kepler: My local shop takes a 12T from an Quick. There are quit a lot with this setup!
-klaus

Fair enough, I just havent seen it talked about on the various forums. Does clearance become an issue on the sideframes? I imagine it would be an issue with a Z30. Even a 14 tooth needs a bit of material removed to stop the motor rubbing.

[worldofmaya]

Hi!
I'm only using a 5s with 15T so I don't have personal experience, but I'm pretty sure there's no real issue with 12T. At least I haven't heard anything about that with the Gaui 1100kv engine...
I haven't seen a Z30 in action by now, but a few people here are experimenting with OBL 43/11-30H. Looks at least similar to an Z30 and data seam to be pretty much the same. OBL is much easier to get here than anything from Z-Power. I heard that with an OBL it gets close to a few parts so this maybe the same with an Z30. But I also heard it's easy to solve :)
@Cralis, Only lower-power option seams to be an Z20 with 50A Gaui Esc... from what I know flying-hobby & others sell all higher-power kits with 75A Gaui Esc. If you need a new one you may check the Jazz 55A Esc. A little bit expensive but really worth it's money. Anyway your upgrade path sounds good!
-Klaus

[Phoinix]

I get 13,5 minutes on my hurricane when i'm scale flying (hovering, FFF) at 80% discharge capacity.

Z30 + Flight power LITE 5350 5S + 500 wood blades

[Cralis]

That's pretty pricey packs there, Phoenix? No? 13.5 is amazing!

Klaus, thanks. I'm really a novice with the heli Just managing side on comfortbly... no chance at noce in.. :( I've turned it towards me and hovered nose in twice, for around 5 seconds, then got chicken and turned away. My goal for the next 2 months is to get comfirtable at nose-in hovers. BUt with 3 and a half minutes... I'mnot getting a lot of time to practise. :)

So, I think with what I am doing, the Z20 (980kv) engine will be OK eh? with a 14t engine pinion.

I crashed my Trex450 last wek - hard! Was doing figure 8's, and then started getting too confident... was doing a fast fly by fromleft to right, and I got my orientation wrong... moved the aileron right instead of left, clipped a small tree (Lost blades,,,) and down it went into the (recently mowed!) grass..

So my confidence is VERY low right now.. I'm hoping the Hurricane can get me happy again. :) More time in the air is a starting point..

Will I not be able to use my ESC that came with the 1100 engine?? I think it;'s the 75...

[Phoinix]

Pricey? Hehe, nope. You are the one wasting money on lets say 3700 5S compared to 5350 5S.

Lets do the simple task, step away from the price you see on the pack, and follow me through.


Let's say all packs will hold you through 200 cycles of charging.

3700 5S will get you 9,5 minutes of flight (80% discharge)
5350 5S will give you 13,5 minutes of flight (80% discharge)

Thus you get flight time per battery lifetime:
3700 - 31,7 hrs
5350 - 45,0 hrs

Prices:
3700 - 170€/31,7hrs = 5,36€ per hour
5350 - 230€/45,0hrs = 5,11€ per hour


Now, who is throwing money out the window? :D You are really throwing money out the window by not caring about your packs. If it doesn't reach the lifetime, that's wasting money. Every cycle over 200 is the money well spent. So, quality matters. Flight power all the way for me.

[Phoinix]

You are using 2 2100 20C right?

Lets convert to dollars.

2x 2100 = $95,9
1x 5350 = $269.99 (www.flightpower.usa)

2x 2100 - flight time = 4 minutes = 13,3 hrs (200 lifetime cycles)
1x 5350 - flight time = 13,5 minutes = 45 hrs (200 lifetime cycles)

Thus we get:
2x 2100 - 7,2$ per hour
1x 5350 - 6,0$ per hour


Who is spending more than?

Plus, charging 2x 3S packs takes twice as much time and slight voltage difference during disscharging lets say, brings you only 3/4 cycles, gives you as much as $9,6 per flight hour. Huge amount man!

[worldofmaya]

Hi!
@Cralis: Which Esc (Governor? what value?) / Motor / Lipos to you use right now? Pinion was the one that came with your kit, right?
3 1/2min sounds like something need too much power. The first thing would be to check your head speed. I bought a rpm checker for this. Was something around 20$. Values were pretty much the same I calculated before. Something around 10min should be no problem if you have the right setup. From what you wrote I think your setup is way too aggressive.
-Klaus