Honey Bee King II Tail Wag in Phoenix

[racin06]

The Sport version has a pretty good tail wag going. I've been playing around with the settings in Phoenix and I have yet to calm the tail. Any solutions? Thanks.

[sparx-]

Same thing here. I am honestly shocked to see this to be honest. They have yet to put out a model that didnt work from the start. This one is Horrible to say the least. It's not even close to the real thing.

Rotor Diam WRONG
Weight WRONG
Tail Rotor Diam WRONG

Then there is the tail wag problem.

Very odd to see something like this from them.


SPaRX

[gregwee]

Phoenix has put the ESky HoneyBee King2 back on their download page here (http://www.phoenix-sim.com/downloads.htm). Maybe they've fixed the problem?

[sparx-]

No it is not fixed. I downloaded and installed them. My above comments are bout the download from their webpage.

SPaRX

[gregwee]

Did you send them an email about the problem? Phoenix seems to be quite responsive, so they should be aware of any problems that come up..

[sparx-]

not yet.. will do it later.

SPaRX

[sparx-]

Here is the reply I got..............


Hi James

Thank you for your comments and suggestions regarding the Honeybee King 2 model.

This model in reality has a known issue with the tail, which causes the behaviour you mentioned. We have gone to great lengths to attempt to model this behaviour in the Phoenix version of this model.

Regarding the other attributes - we have forwarded these onto our flight team, but these might have been set to the current values in order to reproduce the flying characteristics more closely.

Best Regards

PhoenixRC Support

My Reply


Yes, I understand that the real model does this in real life as well with the rate gyro. But when adding a good Head Holding Gyro, it is possible to get a nice solid and stable tail. I had a Honey Bee King 2 for about 6 months and know it pretty well. So is it possible to lock the tail in a little better? Could you possible release a "Head Holding" Version that has a better holding tail for those that upgraded their Gyros for better performance then they could have a model similar to their real life counterpart?

Their Second Reply


Hi James

We have forwarded this to our programming and flight teams, and hope to have a solution available very soon.

Best Regards

PhoenixRC Support


Just thought I would pass on the info. I hope they make the tail kick tunable.

SPaRX

[Ade_Law]

the hbk is based on the model i have been flying using the stock gyro and a cheapy using the stock servo for the tail. i expect this is pretty much how most fly it.

whos gonna stick a 100+ usd gyro on such a cheap model?

ok... i am.

once my 3153 turns up im gonna try it with a spartan DS760. once i have flown this setup a bit more i will create another varient for phoenix.

Ade

[sparx-]

the hbk is based on the model i have been flying using the stock gyro and a cheapy using the stock servo for the tail. i expect this is pretty much how most fly it.

whos gonna stick a 100+ usd gyro on such a cheap model?

ok... i am.

once my 3153 turns up im gonna try it with a spartan DS760. once i have flown this setup a bit more i will create another varient for phoenix.

Ade


Ade,

My HBK with an Esky HH Gyro and Esky servo flew 100x better then the current model. I had mine dialed in really good and it would hold the tail very well.

Here is a video of my HBK with the Esky HH Gyro. You will see my tail does not act anything like the Phoenix model
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxn5UcZINFE

Then thing with the current model in Phoenix now is that you cannot tweak it to get rid of that tail kick.. I have tried just about every setting there is in game and cannot make that kick go away. So could you explain to me how to create another varient for the HBK that will not kick the tail like it does now?

Your right, most people will not put a 100$ gyro on this, but there are plenty of other gyros that are inexpensive that will turn the HBK into quite a capable machine. Telebees, Esky HH, heck even the Aligns do good on the HBK.

SPaRX

[sparx-]

For anyone interested, here is my HBK varient for Phoenix. This is as close as I could get the sim model to fly like how mine was flying.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ezaxqcexzmd

SPaRX

[WJackson]

Emphasis on WAS flying there Sparx??:lol: Just kidding obviously, like the saying goes, hate to see you crash, but dont want to miss it either. :wink:Thanks for sharing buddy. BTW-kudos to all who are contributing to make this sim head and shoulders above the rest. Ade pass on to Runtime to keep up the good work!:thumbup:

[devindh]

Hi all, if you want try mine, here (in stickies thread of variant), http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?p=499240#post499240

There is recording about HBK piroflip and invert autos, just to tes tail wag fixed, but some time tail kick happen (not wag).

Happy flying.

PS: I try to reduce HBK weight (default 1kg??), so try this in wind speed max 2 m/s, or indoor use.

[sparx-]

Emphasis on WAS flying there Sparx??:lol: Just kidding obviously, like the saying goes, hate to see you crash, but dont want to miss it either. :wink:Thanks for sharing buddy. BTW-kudos to all who are contributing to make this sim head and shoulders above the rest. Ade pass on to Runtime to keep up the good work!:thumbup:

Yes, emphasis on WAS flying. There are a few things about the HBK I do not like. The frame flex is one of them. It caused my last crash and I just could not bring myself to fix it again. So I just built up a 450 heli. No big deal :). I had a good time witht he HBK. Ran it for a good 6 months. So not like I didnt get my moneys worth out of it. I still think about getting another one, but will not even consider it now till a good CF/G10 Frame comes out for it.

Also, part sourcing was an issue for me as well. There are only a handful of US online shops that carry the parts. It seemed like everytime I needed a part they were out of stock. Drove me nuts having a grounded heli because I could not purchase a part I needed.

It's a fun heli no doubt. It is a good learning platform as well.

SParX

[WJackson]

Parts support is one major aspect when considering the heli purchase. I'm a pretty cheap bastard, but try to balance that out with as good a quality product as i can.

[gregor]

the hbk is based on the model i have been flying using the stock gyro and a cheapy using the stock servo for the tail. i expect this is pretty much how most fly it.



Most upgrade to the BL setup from the start then replace the gyro shortly after that. There is another forum with a pretty active group of HBK2 owners (myself included) and most are not using the stock gyro. I've never flown the stock gyro, but if it behaved like the Phoenix model, I'd scrap it before you could say "Bob's your uncle".

It would also be nice to see a variant with the upgraded metal head and tail. The metal parts are a nice shade of purple, ala the Scythe. Yes, believe it not, there are a number of full CNC HBK2's out there.

[Ade_Law]

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=9164056496285424000

once i have the spartan on there i will do another varient.

Ade

[sparx-]

That video is how my HBK was :). Nowhere near how it is currently in Phoenix.

Ade, is there something we can adjust now to fix this issue or is it something hardcoded into the model?

SPaRX

[Ade_Law]

sparx, my hbk is similar to how the sim is. its just careful use of collective so that the tail servo can keep up.

best bet if you want to take this out is to drop phoenix an email support@phoenix-sim.com and ask them as i dont know sorry.

Ade

[sparx-]

Already dropped them and email.

I mess around with it a bit more. Right now if I even touch the collective the tail kicks. Just cannot seem to tame it down. Could you possible d/l my varient and see what you think of it Ade? I won't deny that it could very well just be my flying :)

link: http://www.mediafire.com/?ezaxqcexzmd

I do look forward to your varient though. If you would, could you please post your varient when you get it worked out? Would be nice to compare yours to mine.

Thanks for all the work you put into the sim.

SPaRX

[gregor]

Right now if I even touch the collective the tail kicks

Same here. There doesn't seem to be any ratio of tail kick to collective input. Its all or nothing. A tiny bit of collective gives the same kick as full collective, Even with slow gyro and slow servo you should be able to gently apply collective without causing a kick. Also the kick starts and stops imeadiately after touching the collective. In real life there would be some delay and the tail changes would be more gradual.

On my HBK2 with the Logictech 2100t and the Hitec HS81 I can get a little slow tail kick but only if I go to full collective. I know a stock HBK2 is going to be a little worse, but not as bad as the current Pheonix model.

I'll also add that is seems to be a common practice for HBK2 owners to upgrade to 450 sized tail blades, or increase the tail rotor speed with an upgraded drive gear like this one.

http://www.xtremecx2.com/servlet/the-137/Xtreme-43t-Belt-Pulley/Detail

The HBK2 owers that have done this can give full collective from a hover and have no tail kick. Here's an example. Check the video at the 1:14 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yBDAZpMlgU

Phoenix has adjustments for both tail size and speed. However these adjustments don't seem to provide any help for the tail as they would in real life.

[racin06]

Well, as I posted on another board, that periodic tail wag is something else on the King II in Phoenix. I just bought a King II and I wonder now if I made a good choice. In the below video, I'm flying an Esky Honey Bee FP. Yes, this HBFP is fully modified; however, it is still an FP heli with a motorized tail and I am using the Esky HH gyro. This HBFP files really well, even in 10 mph winds. There is no sudden tail wagging as in the King II model in Phoenix. If you'll notice when in hover, there is a small amount of tail wag because the gain was a little high. Anyway, I would hope that the King II would fly better than the HBFP...modified or not. I guess I'll just have to fly my real King II to see.

By the way, regardless if the tail twitching is fixed or not, Phoenix RC is an awesome sim and I appreciate Ade's and other's hard work in bringing the best ever RC flying sim to the market.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WJ-mO2IXNY&eurl

High Quality - http://www.blip.tv/file/569898

[Ade_Law]

my 3153 turned up yesterday fitted last night along with a spartan DS760. however it doesnt look like the weather is going to play ball until the weekend :-(

done a bit more playing and it does seem that the tail kick isnt quite working the way it should. As you say it kicks too much for small collective movements. Unfortunately this isnt something the user can do at the moment but next time im down at phoenix i will see if we can make it adjustable and get the stock settings closer...

sorry guys musta been half asleep! In the mean time it will teach you to be smooth on the collective :-)

Ade

[sparx-]

Ade,

Thanks for looking into to it further. Nice to have someone in the hobby influencing things like this.

It's not the tail kick I had a problem with as my HBK would kick out as well on hard pitch changes. It is how right now even the slightest change in collective causes the tail to kick out. The slowest, smoothest collective change results in a tail kick every time. :( .

Hopefully we will see an update from the Pheonix team soon

Thanks Again

SPaRX

[devindh]

Hi all, if you want try mine, here (in stickies thread of variant), http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?p=499240#post499240

There is recording about HBK piroflip and invert autos, just to tes tail wag fixed, but some time tail kick happen (not wag).

Happy flying.

PS: I try to reduce HBK weight (default 1kg??), so try this in wind speed max 2 m/s, or indoor use.


Any comment Sparx?? Sorry for asking.

[sparx-]

I tried your varient as well. Seen the same issues with yours as mine. Even the slightest touch of collective and the tail would kick.

SPaRX