two weeks to learn how to fly before shooting day

[Jay]

Wecoyote,
I don't think any of us are afraid of him steeling our business, but perhaps you are right about us being harsh. I don't consider myself in the same class as DJ or Wendell and may never be, and that is okay.
At the same time I would not want to give a kid a gun and a bullet and say "Now Johnny you go out and play", or as it was said before, watch someone on a learners permitt enter the Daytona 500.
Being responsible is knowing when to isssue a strong warning or hard advise when needed.
Nobody likes being the "Bad Guy" and I doubt there are any power struggles at play here, just a strong desire to see someone make the right choices.
BTW, Great suggestion about the poll cam
Jay

[jascamera]

I can assure you will not be able to hover properly aside from flying it in such short time. But what you should do is spend the time and find a pilot in your area who can fly the heli safely and gave him 2 weeks to get use to your heli. Even then, it's risky, but much better method. Ideally, you need to test the heli for some period of time to make sure there aren't flaws with heli that can occur during your filming with people around.

[crewchief]

I would say my experience falls somewhere in the middle - between "beginner" and "professional" - so my memory of the first few dozen AP jobs with the TREX 600 is still pretty fresh.

First, I wouldn't even think about trying it without the AP2000 stabilizer. Flying well is one thing, and a challenge unto itself, which cannot be minimized. The kind of flying we do is all about smoothness and maintaining your orientation. I found that introducing the element of the camera, and the logistics of trying to set up the shot, can cause your flying skills to go to h*** very quickly.

If you have a live video downlink to help you frame the shots, which is extremely useful, the distractions are multiplied significantly and your flying skills are diminished even farther. The thing about the 600 is that it CAN be very stable if you pay 100% of your attention to your flying, but once it starts moving in any direction, it takes off like a racehorse on steroids, and can be a very frightening experience. It is, after all, a 3D machine. Again, I wouldn't even consider not being able to flip on the stabilizer system in a high hover, where all kinds of visual illusions can cause disorientation.

It's one thing to dream about such things, but it's quite another when your mission turns into a nightmare. You'll know when you're ready when you can take the 600 up to 100' and maintain a perfect hover facing any direction. Try this common scenario: hover the heli tail-in at about 100' AGL above and in front of you. Now slowly back the heli up directly over your head, maintaining heading, like you're getting a wider angle shot. Continue directly over your head, maintaining the heading, and turn yourself around as it starts to get behind you. Continue flying maintaining a constant heading nose-in, simulating shooting the picture over your head. When you can do this comfortably, you're ready, regardless of how little or how much time it takes. Always think safety first.

[Wbird]

Good luck and Kind of jealous. In order to make this work you will be eating and sleeping (as per usual) and flying helis both sim and real life. YEP that is about it. All I can say is Good Luck and you will need to get as much experience as possible. Visit RADD SCHOOL For Rotary Flight (link below). If you follow his guidelines (and don't cheat) you will be able to do a rock solid hover within a short time. Disipline yourself and keep at it.

http://www.dream-models.com/eco/flying-index.html

I posted this earlier and although I agree with most that you can't be ready in 2 weeks, I was giving the benifit of the doubt that if you had 2 solid weeks and all you did is eat, sleep, and fly, you just might be ready. At the very least anyone with any sense at all would know by that time that if you weren't ready. You would know it and have had a few good scares and possibly a couple of crashes within that time frame to help with your decision. Learning is a process and like most have said the process will likely take a lot longer than 2 weeks. Getting over butterflies in basic flight takes more than that and you shouldn't be doing AP if you still get nervous spooling up your heli. Self discipline is key.

[tech1]

Give it up and find someone who has done this to do teh flying.

AP requires flying the camera and not the heli. Even worse for video. This is different from any other flying. Holding the heli in a steady hover or smooth flight is tough. The camera sees everything.

Take at least a few months and as many test flights as you feel necessary.

[j_kookboy]

Hi, I'm new in Helis and at this site

I just finished build my T-rex 600, and after first time i turn it on and move stick at radio, all three servos JR ds821 brake at same moment :shock:.
http://sparrowsfilm.com/resources/_wsb_542x277_broken+servos.jpg
I replaced them and after while eleron servo brakes. I didn't fly it, just trying to setup everything. :arggg:

is I'm right if I think that it's result of my mistake (very slightly different size/length of linkage) ?

by the way, what the BEST JR/Hitec servos for T-REX?
thank's


This was over a month ago.

I'm sorry but you're not ready.

Nothing against you personally, but what most people in this thread pointed out is that AP flying, especially film/video takes a lot of skill.

Anyone can attain 3D status from a sim to a heli as the movements are repetitive and once you get it, you got it.

The thing that makes AP/AV stand out is that you are not only flying for smoothness, but you are flying in areas that would make you pop a new a-hole unless you have the confidence, experience and awareness that this type of piloting takes.

Even superman can't learn that in 2 weeks.

'If' you eat/sleep heli's 24/7 for the next two weeks, you should be able to fly your Trex600.

But not in regards to film/photography at a professional level.

Going by your recent posts, if they are real, that means you have zero to little experience with heli's alone.

I'd recommend just as tech1 said.

Spend this time to find a capable and professional pilot.

Take the next few months to learn to fly, and then progress from there.

If you lack the experience and knowledge of flying a dangerous heli in a hazardous situation, you may not even realize the situation you are placed in until something bad happens.

I hope that won't be your case.

Post a thread 'looking for an AP pilot in xxxxx area' ...

Jesse

[Tonystott]

Dimon, please listen to the very wise advice you are being given. It is no shame to "plug in a pilot", and I do the very same thing myself on paying jobs, as it enables me to concentrate on the output side of things, leaving the flying to someone else. I cannot possibly imagine you being able to cope with the workload of flying and making video, without a huge compromise to safety.

Remember, crashing the heli could be the best-case scenario.. let's not even think about what the worst case might be...

[bullaculla]

Besides flying, proper setup, CG and balancing are also a huge part of AP. Wear inspection and preventive maintenance to avoid crashes due to mechanical failure is something we all do too. I have been flying helis for about a year and a half now, AP for nearly a year, and only now do I think that I am finally ready.
You can adjust the weight and CG of your heli on the sim, but it still wont be like a real world helicam.
I dont want to discourage you from AP, but you need to take it slow.

[dimon]

Hi,

First of all, thanks everyone for advises, importance of that is hard to underestimate, even for deleted ones. I'm really appreciate and going to use (is it correct word) every opinion written in this post.

I'm not going to give-up.:Bang

I'm gonna write some silly things, sorry
I know how hard is to fly - I'm flying (trying). Please stop mention it. I'm not ready.
Just think for a moment, when you filming (doing stills) - where is line between practicing and not practicing flying? Yes, I'm not good pilot yet, but what is a difference when you learning how to fly heli or how to fly heli with a camera on it? Sure, it makes crash more expensive - I don't care when I count lifetime that I spend getting in to it, hitting "search" on tons internet sites and building (equal fun as flying). Dangerous? Yes, everything is dangerous, people taking risk everyday. What, 3D pilot cant hurt someone who watching him doing that crazy things? Easy. And more probably. Every mechanism breaks and human mistake exists. I don't care if I'll loose heli anymore. I realize, that when I start thinking about it flying, it goes down/crazy immediately. I'll build it again and much better :smokin:

Here Is couple pictures of my fresh-builded Heli (sorry for quality of them)
http://sparrowsfilm.com/resources/kopter.jpg
http://sparrowsfilm.com/resources/mount.jpg

Today i was flying it to see how everything works. Result is some questions. Please, help me with any advise/info.

I definitely feel myself better with more heavier heli. bullaculla, can it be true? Got 5 minutes before LipoAlarm turns on. (more than enough for me, was sweating like a pig on 35ºF)

Image is sucks. I'm getting so much of vibrations that footage is not useful. I see how stabilization image system in my camera going crazy and everything looks like if you looking through eyes of drunk or stoned someone. :confused: Should i turn it off?
Also I hope that is result of my laziness - I didn't done the TRACKING on main blades (does the tail blades need something to?)

Also problem with camera mount (pan&tilt) - I'm using JR sport SX600 wit native RX, and it looks like RX getting some interruptions and(or) goes out of the range. Can it be result of mounting RX very close to motor? Or something like that - main TX on channel 40, camera TX channel 41 - any possible problems btw them? Power to both TXs goes from one source.

AP2000i - I did setup on my JR XP7202 radio as it explained here in forum in one of the very fresh posts. (35% and 60%) Do I have to turn it ON at high altitude or at land or anywhere i want? I was trying to use it approx. 1-2 meters above ground and heli always wanted go right (sun side). Flying field is flat former airport. Freaking hard cement landings))).


For those who care about my negative shadow on AP industry/business: The location for filming is somewhere in the middle of nowhere in north of Colorado. Private suburban area. Insurance cover up to 1000000 losses, 5 grand deductible.

It's not a class project that I'm trying to make look "cool" speculating on ability to shoot from heli. Story needs couple short aerial shots, if I'm will not be so lucky, I have storytelling and editing tools to fix problem.

I'm in NY. Going to fly there by airplane and take heli with me. Is any problems with Lipo??

Thanks again for help :cheers

skywalker73, You can't belive how much time I spend searshing for that "flight mode for AP")))

sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker, just learning)))

[Garland]

Sorry did I just hear a experienced flier suggest to hover the heli to 100' .....hold .....then bring it over your head for a wide angle shot ... then bring heli behind you and turn to look at it again??

Am I the only one that caught that?? I think that was worded wrong, and he meant other wise.

If not, I'd rather piss on a hot 220v outlet and feel safer thank you very much.

[dimon]

I waisted pair of blades today, have to order new ASAP. What's decent blades for AP?
thanks

[bullaculla]

Thats some really nice cable wrap. You should forget about the mount for a little while and concentrate on proper setup and flying. Put some kind of dummy weight in the gimbal to balance it out, and balance your blades, tail blades, flybar paddles and your head. Mark a "master blade" and a "master grip" then track the blades. make sure you put the same blade back in the grip.
When you are ready for your shoot, preset the gimbal and forget about it. Unless you have a separate operator for the camera. Also how does the camera gimbal panning left to right affect your CG? Gimbal has to be balanced too. On the stock power system, you should keep flights below 4 minutes for safety.
As for Lipo concerns:
http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=54844

:edit:
also, your tail blades are on backwards...

[bullaculla]

Looks really nose heavy. where is your main lipo going to live? Your tail guides are too close together, and whats holding your AP2Ki sensor on?

[wlfk]

What sort of shots are you trying to get, if you're still considering doing the shoot?

How far away are you hoping to fly?

What sort of altitude?

What are they going to be of? Urban/rural...

K

[dimon]

Lipo living on that two long rods (don't know how you call them) , under the tail servo. It balances gimbal and CG at right place. AP2K Sensor holds in tail by Sensor holder (Bergen) ))) - i got it with sensor

I do have separate operator on camera. That's my main point - I'm not gonna even think that I'm filming, just fly carefully and let him take care of image. I can make as much takes as want.

Do I need separate battery for gimbal? It's just 2 but very powerful hitech servos, one on pan is really huge

p.s.
from very beginning i had filing that something wrong with tail blades, looks strange)))

[bullaculla]

Lipo living on that two long rods (don't know how you call them) , under the tail servo. It balances gimbal and CG at right place. AP2K Sensor holds in tail by Sensor holder (Bergen) ))) - i got it with sensor

I do have separate operator on camera. That's my main point - I'm not gonna even think that I'm filming, just fly carefully and let him take care of image. I can make as much takes as want.

Do I need separate battery for gimbal? It's just 2 but very powerful hitech servos, one on pan is really huge

p.s.
from very beginning i had filing that something wrong with tail blades, looks strange)))


Tail boom braces. Did you check CG when the gimbal is pointed to the left AND right? I bet the when it points left, it gets tail heavy, and nose heavy when it pans to the right. You need 6V going into the gimbals RX and that will supply power to the pan/tilt servos. Usually people use a 2s lipo and regulate it down to 6V. Or you could get a 6V NiCd flight pack and plug it in directly to the RX.
You better go over your heli with a fine tooth comb, and fix those tail blades.
Good luck! :)

[dimon]

Shots for now - POV of pilot in airplane looking at small house, as high as I'll be able to do. Also will try to cheat with wide angle lens. Or if I fail to go high, I can just cheat (thanks to digital era) - get any shot of house from top and scale it down + clone some surrounding area, but it's different story for other forum)))

[wecoyote]

What is the rotation of your tail? It should be rotating anti-clockwise looking at it from the right side (looking straight at the output shaft and tail rotor). If it is turning clockwise (the direction you have the tail blades facing) then your tail belt is twisted the wrong way.

I do have separate operator on camera. That's my main point - I'm not gonna even think that I'm filming, just fly carefully and let him take care of image.
If you would have said that in the begining this thread would read a LOT different than it does now.

AP helicopter = balance EVERYTHING that moves.
As has been said and as you have seen, the camera catches everything.

[rerazor]

Try this common scenario: hover the heli tail-in at about 100' AGL above and in front of you. Now slowly back the heli up directly over your head, maintaining heading, like you're getting a wider angle shot. Continue directly over your head, maintaining the heading, and turn yourself around as it starts to get behind you. Continue flying maintaining a constant heading nose-in, simulating shooting the picture over your head. When you can do this comfortably, you're ready, regardless of how little or how much time it takes. Always think safety first.

Thats far from a common scenario, thats far from a safe scenario and thats far from "always thinking safety first".

This is why I prefer a 360 pan mount and separate camera person. I can concentrate on flying and can put the heli anywhere I feel comfortable.

[jascamera]

Is that the 560 mount from Servo city? I have the 560 mount on my t-600, but I have a direct drive tilt setup. Can you let me know if you have modified the tilt gears to fit, or is it a gear box that servocity sells? And does it smooth enough for video? What part number is it?

[Wbird]

OK. HMMMM.
My biggest question is:

Will you be flying over anything other than ground during the entire duration of your flight?

If the answer is yes, then get someone else to fly for sure. If you won't be flying over people or property then go for it. Only loss is yours.

Another question:
What insurance company would give that kind of coverage to someone completely inexperienced and if they did I would be concerned about not being able to collect when they do find out. For me insurance was easy but it states right in my policy that I have to follow Transport Canada's rules and regulations and they prohibit me from flying within 100 feet measured horizontally from any person or object other than ground or myself. This will get reduced as I get experience and prove myself to them but this is how I started. Also have to submit a fully detailed flight plan before every flight at this point.

I know that US is different but I would still be concerned.

[dimon]

Is that the 560 mount from Servo city? I have the 560 mount on my t-600, but I have a direct drive tilt setup. Can you let me know if you have modified the tilt gears to fit, or is it a gear box that servocity sells? And does it smooth enough for video? What part number is it?

yep, it's slightly modified DDT540 (not 560) from servocity, plus SPG785 Pan system, plus most parts from SPT400 tilt system, only one extra part I made from aluminum on mil (exact same plastic thing with bearing that is at opposite to servo end of the tilt tray), i guess you can order it extra from servocity to. With that part all can be done in couple hours.
tilt working smooth enough.
also I'm going to add there (if it will survive till next month) gyro stabilized rotation to get image horizontal always, now it's in blueprints.

jascamera, where you fly in brooklyn, is any grass field availble now?

[dimon]

Wbird, I'll be flying over nothing, possible some snow, trees, squirrels - they small and fast enough to survive)))

insurance - that's not my question, I'm an editor, grip, and media manager on a set, also may be helicamera owner/pilot. Somehow heli become same tool for production as lights or camera and under insurance as part of a all equipment package. Thats what i know for now.

[Randallhurd]

Call me Crazy, But I wuz Lazy,,
The sim was fine, as long as I Had wine... Crashing was cheap, when on the sim. The beauty of it of it all, was wiped away because memmory was dim.
Flying the 600 Electric or Nitro, Bolt up a Cam, and away you will go with little hopes of a plan. Make the flight last. Lipo or Gas, Pay real close attention or it's a guarteed smash. Hanging at 400 or 500 feet more, , Majestic Galore. Have a safe flight. Make sure the links are tight. Double check a preflight, ... PS< Your landing depends on it!!!!!
:YeaBaby::thumbup::thinking

[veegor]

Hi,

First of all, thanks everyone for advises, importance of that is hard to underestimate, even for deleted ones. I'm really appreciate and going to use (is it correct word) every opinion written in this post.

I'm not going to give-up.:Bang

I'm gonna write some silly things, sorry
I know how hard is to fly - I'm flying (trying). Please stop mention it. I'm not ready.
Just think for a moment, when you filming (doing stills) - where is line between practicing and not practicing flying? Yes, I'm not good pilot yet, but what is a difference when you learning how to fly heli or how to fly heli with a camera on it? Sure, it makes crash more expensive - I don't care when I count lifetime that I spend getting in to it, hitting "search" on tons internet sites and building (equal fun as flying). Dangerous? Yes, everything is dangerous, people taking risk everyday. What, 3D pilot cant hurt someone who watching him doing that crazy things? Easy. And more probably. Every mechanism breaks and human mistake exists. I don't care if I'll loose heli anymore. I realize, that when I start thinking about it flying, it goes down/crazy immediately. I'll build it again and much better :smokin:

Here Is couple pictures of my fresh-builded Heli (sorry for quality of them)
http://sparrowsfilm.com/resources/kopter.jpg
http://sparrowsfilm.com/resources/mount.jpg

Today i was flying it to see how everything works. Result is some questions. Please, help me with any advise/info.

I definitely feel myself better with more heavier heli. bullaculla, can it be true? Got 5 minutes before LipoAlarm turns on. (more than enough for me, was sweating like a pig on 35ºF)

Image is sucks. I'm getting so much of vibrations that footage is not useful. I see how stabilization image system in my camera going crazy and everything looks like if you looking through eyes of drunk or stoned someone. :confused: Should i turn it off?
Also I hope that is result of my laziness - I didn't done the TRACKING on main blades (does the tail blades need something to?)

Also problem with camera mount (pan&tilt) - I'm using JR sport SX600 wit native RX, and it looks like RX getting some interruptions and(or) goes out of the range. Can it be result of mounting RX very close to motor? Or something like that - main TX on channel 40, camera TX channel 41 - any possible problems btw them? Power to both TXs goes from one source.

AP2000i - I did setup on my JR XP7202 radio as it explained here in forum in one of the very fresh posts. (35% and 60%) Do I have to turn it ON at high altitude or at land or anywhere i want? I was trying to use it approx. 1-2 meters above ground and heli always wanted go right (sun side). Flying field is flat former airport. Freaking hard cement landings))).


For those who care about my negative shadow on AP industry/business: The location for filming is somewhere in the middle of nowhere in north of Colorado. Private suburban area. Insurance cover up to 1000000 losses, 5 grand deductible.

It's not a class project that I'm trying to make look "cool" speculating on ability to shoot from heli. Story needs couple short aerial shots, if I'm will not be so lucky, I have storytelling and editing tools to fix problem.

I'm in NY. Going to fly there by airplane and take heli with me. Is any problems with Lipo??

Thanks again for help :cheers

skywalker73, You can't belive how much time I spend searshing for that "flight mode for AP")))

sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker, just learning)))

Hello Dimon , Just need to chime in .Maybe I can say something that will help you see what other Fellow freaks have voiced and stressed to you throughout this thread.

Consider re-reading again what you quoted earlier. QUOTE 1# Yes, I'm not good pilot yet, but what is a difference when you learning how to fly heli or how to fly heli with a camera on it?

(I'll raise my hand and answer this guys) The Difference is you have chosen to accelerate your FLYING LEVEL skills in a time frame that is TOTALLY NOT NECESSARY. YOU must ask yourself Do I really need to place a greater risk of injury to other people and property during a HIGHER PROFILE 6 minute flight.

QUOTE 2# I don't care if I'll loose heli anymore. I realize, that when I start thinking about it flying, it goes down/crazy immediately.????

I heard that theres a 3/10th of a second response time to make the right corrections of a heli. If your not skillful enough to understand the flight characteristics of extra electroincs at 200 feet , HOw are you going to be prepared for loss of oreintation and make the right escape recovery? .Will the people and property below be the results of this answer ?

You have to have control regardless ... from the time you spool up heli to where you want the CARNAGE to LAY.

The "I don't care where it crashes" statement is very disturbing. I'm sure nobody at this event wants to hear that mentioned from the pilot ?

I APPLAUSE YOUR DEDICATION TOWARD THIS HIGH EXPECTATION TASK . And yes I agree with you that In RC Heli FLYING , CERTAIN LEARNING SKILLS CAN BE ACHEIVED In short DURATION ,

BUT DIMON . You have been given advice /opinions from the seasoned AP heli pilots in the business and other experienced heli pilots.

I think all that have commented on this issue would like to see a better decision made on this future engagement. Just being honest ...Will someone be video taping you during the flying? I think several HELIfreaks would like to see the heli in flight? Good Luck