Futaba 2.4 GHZ(12 FGH) V. Spektrum 7 DX

[roie11]

Hi all,
I was told that the Spektrum works much faster than the Futaba. Is it true ?
does any one know about comparison being done between the two ?

[roie11]

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[Jafa]

Who ever told that is probably refering to the latency of the Futaba 9C during multiple channel input and CCPM mixing - in that scenario the DX7 is much faster (not that anybody ever complained about the Futaba 9C until these test results were published)

The Futaba Web site says the 2.4ghz 6EX and 12FG are twice as fast as the DX7 - but this is not at all qualified as to what metric they are picking on

I would not worry about it - it's not much more than a specification competition

If you are using Futaba and are concerned with the CCPM / PCM latency
then simply use a CSM Cyclock to do the CCPM mixing on the heli
This will mostly solve the issue and provide useful interaction corrections also

[Pinecone]

Although the number show that at least the 6EX 2.4 has variable latency, so doing different things will have different latencies. And people who flew different radios did notice the latency issues with the radios.

Consistant latency is not that bad, as youlearn to deal with it, but variable will dry you nuts.

And most people who went from Futaba to DX7 commented on the more locked in feeling.

[martiol]

FASST is the only true spread specrum system i believe. I've heard something about spectrum locking on to two channels. I don't really believe a 2.4Ghz radio system designed after 2000 would do that. FASST never stays on one channel, and that is the definition of spread spectrum.

EDIT: Spectrum uses Direct Sequence spread spectrum. They almost fooled me into thinking it was not spread spectrum. "Locking on to two channels" that's just bad PR.

[kgfly]

* FASST is DSSS with fast channel hopping, not FHSS, and has frequency redundancy
* Spektrum DSM/DSM2 is DSSS with frequency, antenna and spatial redundancy
* XPS is DSSS with as-needed channel hopping with an element of frequency redundancy
* Assan is DSSS on a single channel

They all work. Certainly both FASST and DSM/DSM2 are well proven in the field. XPS too now has plenty of users and seems to work well. Assan is too new to tell but technically, has no redundancy features so probably not a good choice for large or high value models.

All Futaba Tx from the 6EXH through to the 12FG/12mz/14mz (except in G3 mode) have design factors that mean their CCPM performance is poor compared to the DX7, X9303/DSX9 and a number of older non-2.4GHz systems too. Technically this is clear from bench testing. Anecdotally some people say they can feel the difference and others don't. I would be reluctant to buy a system with worse performance if another with higher performance meets all my other criteria.

FASST currently has only two Rx available, 6ch and 7ch. JR/Spektrum have five 6ch Rx (from 2g to 12g), one 7ch and three 9ch all currently shipping. Futaba will catch up in time but for flexibility in Rx choice, Spektrum is way ahead.

Only the DX6i, DX7 and X9303/DSX9 have ModelMatch which prevents you from attempting to fly a model with the wrong model memory selected. This is a very nice feature.

Unlike the DX6i/DX7/X9303/DSX9, the 12FG is not an integrated 2.4GHz Tx, it is a modular Tx.This means you can swap between a synth FM module or the 2.4GHz module designed for the 14mz. it also means the antenna is mounted on the module at the back of the Tx, not in the normal Tx position. Some folk don't like that.

The 12FG is very sophisticated and dripping with advanced features, even ahead of the X9303/DSX9. If you need 12 channels or the advanced features then it looks like an impressive Tx. The X9303/DSX9 is a high-end Tx with many advanved features and more than most pilots will ever use. It has Heli/Plane/Sailplane model types. The DX7 is a very capable high-end sport radio with Heli/Plane mode types. It has all the features that I think 90+% of people need but then I only fly helis and simple planes.

Given that the 12FG is about three times the price of a DX7 and maybe double the price of the X9303 and that FASST Rx are about double the price of comparable Spektrum Rx, if money is a factor then the choice is easy.

If money isn't a factor then compare the features and do your best to get a chance to physically hold the Tx. Then choose the one that has the features, flexibility or feel that you prefer.

[ClayK]

Although the number show that at least the 6EX 2.4 has variable latency, so doing different things will have different latencies. And people who flew different radios did notice the latency issues with the radios.

Consistant latency is not that bad, as youlearn to deal with it, but variable will dry you nuts.

And most people who went from Futaba to DX7 commented on the more locked in feeling.

I agree with consistent latency, even though any noticeable latency drives me nuts. Having flown my 14MZ back to back with a DX7, they are about the same in feel. It might just be in my head, but I feel that the 14MZ with a G3 receiver is just a hair quicker.

Now, comparing a 9C to a DX7 is like comparing a 14MZ to a 9C. CCPM mixing latency in the 9C is atrocious. Looking forward to testing my x9303 when it comes.

[DavidH]

All Futaba Tx from the 6EXH through to the 14mz (except in G3 mode) have design factors that mean their CCPM performance is poor compared to the DX7, X9303/DSX9 and a number of older non-2.4GHz systems too.

So your saying the 12FG, and 12Z have poor CCPM performance. That is interesting since they use virtually the same processor as the 14MZ.
It is the processor in the radio that determines how well the radio works, not the RF modulation.

David

[kgfly]

So your saying the 12FG, and 12Z have poor CCPM performance. That is interesting since they use virtually the same processor as the 14MZ.
It is the processor in the radio that determines how well the radio works, not the RF modulation.Quite so, I was imprecise. All the G3-capable radios (12FG/12mz/14mz) have exceptionally good CCPM performance in G3 mode, but on the bench show the same CCPM behaviours as the other Futaba radios including extremely wide latency variation and slew rate limiting. See here for the test results: http://runryder.com/helicopter/t172571p1/

Hmm, actually even that statement is not accurate since the test results only cover the 6ex/9c/9z/12mz/14mz. Given this uniformity of behaviour across the Futaba range it seems not unreasonable that the 7c and 12FG would slot into their logical positions in the range and show the same results.

It is not just the processor that determines the performance, but the software in the Tx. The results suggest to me that either Futaba (sensibly) has a shared codebase for their Tx which delivers the same CCPM mixing algorithms on all platforms or they at least have a common design specification for the CCPM mixing which is implemented on all Tx.

[DavidH]

Yes and I have never seen a bench fly yet. The reports I have read that flight performance has always been fine in CCPM. Has been my experience from using a 12Z. I am flying 120 deg and 140 deg CCPM helis. Not having any problems with the 12Z. I am even flying one model with a 149 DP PCM 1024 receiver. Doesn't exhibit any problems to me. Guess I am just lucky.
And unless I have missed it, I have only see one person post test reports. Not saying anything about the ability of the person.

David

[Pinecone]

The strange thing is if you order a 12FG 2.4, you get a standard 12FG with the 2.4 module. But as someone over an RCG found out, if you buy the 72 module and antenna, it is $100 less than buying the 12FG 72 MHz and buying the 2.4 module, but you don't get the $400 14 ch Rx. :)

Personally I am looking forward to the JR 12X, although it may cost me some money. But the good news is, an X9303 will be for sale. :)

[DavidH]

The strange thing is if you order a 12FG 2.4, you get a standard 12FG with the 2.4 module. But as someone over an RCG found out, if you buy the 72 module and antenna, it is $100 less than buying the 12FG 72 MHz and buying the 2.4 module, but you don't get the $400 14 ch Rx.


I have read the above several times. I can't grasp what your trying to say
On Tower the 12FG 72 meg is $1000, the 12.FG 2.4 is $1200
The TM 14 2.4 ghz module is $199 the 6014 2.4 ghz rx is $220


David

[Trooper Sam]

I get what he's saying. He's saying that you can buy the 2.4 setup for $1200, then order the 72mHz module and antenna, it'll cost you a total of $1300 to have a radio capable of both, instead of paying $1000 to get a 72mHz version and paying an additional $400 to get a 2.4 module and receiver.

As he also mentioned, you do miss out on getting a 72mHz G3 receiver doing it his way. Since that's an over $300 value, I guess you don't really save anything. :)

EDIT: Actually, to get EVERYTHING, you're best off getting the 72mHz setup, then buying the 2.4 module and receiver. Total for that is $1400. If you buy the 2.4 version, then you'll be spending around $400 to get a 72mHz module, antenna and receiver. Total comes to $1600, so buy the 72mHz version and get the 2.4 module and receiver separately! :)

[derelict]

I'm thinking about buying a 12fg 2.4 ghz myself.... but i'm not sure about these things:

- do i have to buy a 12 channel rx for each of my helis if i go the 12fg way.... or can i just buy a "cheap" 7 channel rx (i don't need more channels) for the futaba remote ?

- how does the dx7 compare to the 12fg in terms of features ? or to say it in other words... are the additional features worth the price you pay more for the 12fg ?

- what features will i most likely need which are only available on the 12fg ?

thanks for any help.... as i more tend to the dx7 in terms of the price.... but i don't wan't to miss a feature i might going to need in the future !

Thanks for any information on this !

Cheers

Marcel

[kgfly]

Tough question Marcel and one that only you can answer. We certainly don't know what's in your future. The DX7 does enough for probably 90% of people flying helis and planes and maybe 50% of people flying gliders. The 12FG (or for that matter, the X9303 or X12) have many, many more features that provide greater flexibility and/or fine tuning in many ways. You should download the manuals and spend a few days reading through them to get a feel for what the different Tx offer, then you will be able to judge if the extra features appeal to you or not.

Certainly it is not an apples to apples comparison as you are talking about a $250 Tx compared to a $1000 Tx. You could get started with a DX7 + Rx for under $300. That's not much of a risk. If you don't like it or find you need more features it will be easy to sell and you will have a better idea of what you want in your next Tx. On the other hand you could spend $1200 for a 12FG and find you never use more than a fraction of what it offers and have $900 less in the heli budget. Depreciation on the high end Tx is much greater so even if you were to sell the 12FG you might be out of pocket by more than the cost of a DX7 anyway! I know several people who sold their 14mz (originally $3000) in favour of DX7 and have no interest in going back.

Different strokes for different folks. What flavour do you like ?

[Pinecone]

Yeah, at that point I would look to the X9303 (about $500 - $600 street price with a 9 ch Rx). Or wait for the 12X (best guess will put it in the $700 - $800 range, maybe a bit more).

Both are native 2.4 GHz radios, with Model Match and with Servo Sync, where the channels are reordered in sending to reduce lag in one servo. In a heli the 3 CCPM channels are sent as a group to have them respond together.

[derelict]

thanks for the replies ! i'll check out the manuals! ;-)

how about the rx will i need a 12 channel rx if i go for the 12fg... or can i just fit a 7 channel rx while being fine with the 12fg?

Thanks

Marcel

[Pinecone]

I know with JR/Spektrum you can use 6, 7 or 9 ch Rxes with the X9303.

I would HOPE that Futaba allows similar, but best bet would be to call Hobbico/Futaba.

[derelict]

ok.... i decided to buy a 12fg which was 995$ (and in stock !!) at www.readyheli.com.

i've choosed the 12fg because it was not that much more expensive than the x9303 but with a whole lot of more features and "better feeling".

Allthough the dx7 seems like a good remote... i just felt, that it's to "cheap" for my "feeling" if you know what i mean ;-)

anyway... according to http://2.4gigahertz.com/modules/modules-receivers.html the futaba 7 channel receivers are supposed to work with the 12fg... and therefore i bought 2 Futaba R617FS (http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=6734) at www.espritmodel.com (readyheli.com doesn't seem to have them) for my other two helis.

hope this might help anyone else in the future for making "the right decision" ;-)

Greets

Marcel

[kgfly]

Congratulations!

Let us know how you like it once you have had time to play with it.

Enjoy!

[Pinecone]

Nice budget, $370 more is not that much more expensive, only 59% more. And Rxes at $100 versus $40 - $75. :)

[derelict]

@kgfly:

sure...i'll do that... hopefully it'll arrive soon ;-)

@pinecone:

hehe... i don't want to argue against that .... but according to readyheli.com... the x9303 is about 730$ ... that compared to the price for a 12fg at 995$ isn't that much more (270$) if you compare the features and the long term usability for the future :-)

a 9 channel rx from jr is about 170$ while a 7 channel rx from futaba is about 99$ which is the same price as for a 7 channel spektrum rx !

so i don't quiet share the same prices as you stated ;-)

Greets from switzerland

Marcel

[Pinecone]

That is with the DS821 servos that no one wants anyway. With just the Tx and Rx it is $630. And there are places that sell it even cheaper.

But if you are happy, great. Just as I am supremely happy with my X9303.

[derelict]

smile....yes..hopefully i'll be happy with it... once i receive it ;-)

can you get rx's for the 9303 with less (cheaper) than 9 Channels?

Greets Marcel

[ClayK]

smile....yes..hopefully i'll be happy with it... once i receive it ;-)

can you get rx's for the 9303 with less (cheaper) than 9 Channels?

Greets Marcel
You can put in smaller rx's in your model and use them with the x9303, but you won't get 2048 resolution. Only the R921 and the AR9000 get you 2048 resolution with the x9303.

In order to get 2048 resolution with the 12/14 from Futaba you need either the 608 rx or the 6014 rx.

Basically the same. The 8 channel from Futaba is about $160 and the 9 channel from Spektrum/JR is $160. Same difference. The x9303 seems to be a fine radio and I'll have more to say on it this weekend when I test it on a big bird, but the features on the 12/14 are pretty hefty. Add to that the modularity of being able to determine what type of output (RF), may be worth it to some. Can the x9303 do a software update and add functionality? (I'm curious, not trying to be a smart$$)